The Feasability of Reinsertion

**Pyraci**

I thought it appropriate to post this on the general discussion board, as the concept of reinsertion appears to relate more to MxO than the movie trilogy.

I wanted to ask a philosophical question on the concept of re-entering the Matrix from a redpill perspective. I know many have described the process as simply flying to 01, getting plugged in and waking up as a bluepill. Personally, I would think that once a person has knowledge of what the Matrix is, there would need to be a massive, painful, sometimes fatal procedure to get the body, and the mind(most importantly) to accept the simulation in the same way again. I think the concepts of extraction/reinsertion get watered down as we don't physically see it happen with game mechanics and all - especially the reinsertion bit. With that said, I'd like to see some of your thoughts on the process and the reason.

**PBlade**

A faction mate of mine wrote an RP in which he was re-inserted and then, subsequently, removed from the simulation because he saw things and people he remembered (such as me, with my hideous facial tatoos SMILEY

etc..) and even Cypher in the move stressed that he wants to remember "Nothing, d'ya hear me? Nothing!" So I think he's as fully aware of the risks of it.

I think the human mind being the way it is, to totally forget something, or to have it actually erased from our minds, is something even the Machines can't fathom or accomodate.

**Archangel**

I think it's largely a pointless endeavor. Most of us rejected the simulation naturally, and if we went back, it stands to reason that we'd eventually do so again.

As for those who were forcefully awakened or began to question due to unfortunate accidents, it might be a different story.

**GamiSB** · 02/16/2007 05:18:36

The intire thing can be summed up in one word "Risk"

What always buged me the most whne i was a cyph and now when talking IC to em is that it never got past, "We fly 01 and we go to sleep" most fo the time. When you asked "But we rejected it how can we go back to sleep" its just ignored.

So my guess is that if you are apart of the 1% that rejects the simulation your screwed. Your just going to wake up again but the date is unknown. A complet memory swipe may do the trick but I think the subconcious(sp?) choice is more embedded in your mind then just a memory. Which leads me further to believe that they never intended to reinsurt Cypher in the first movie because they know he was just going to wake up again. But now however with the rapid increases in awakenings they take everything they can get when it comes to going back 1% or not.

There is also a few insteresting bluepills that pop up in missions. The one that I remember best is in chpt 1 i think and its an ex Zion op that retired and now is back in her pod liveing her life but still remembers everything from back when she was awake. Which may be an alternitive for those that did reject the system and helps keep threw from fully wakeing up

For a code bomb vic or something simular however I think the process is much easier and they are more able to be reinserted and it is basicly "Fly to 01 and go to sleep"

illian

As I see it, personally,

I live and die for this simulation cus in my eyes its an integral part of the symbiosis between humans and machines, and one of the cornerstones in the continuation of the worlds existens and a way for the human race to repent there wrongdoings against the machines.

as for reinsertion, I dont personally think i ever will be able to get to that state, I hope and dream about it, but iam aware of the fact that already have rejected it, and might do it again if i ever was reinserted, so my struggle as a cypherite is more for the people that still is in the simulation and aid the machines in maintaining the symbiosis, also try and minimise the forced wake ups thats occuring.

but i only speak for myself.

/cheers

**Kemy**

GamiSB wrote:

The intire thing can be summed up in one word "Risk"
What always buged me the most whne i was a cyph and now when talking IC to em is that it never got past, "We fly 01 and we go to sleep" most fo the time. When you asked "But we rejected it how can we go back to sleep" its just ignored.
So my guess is that if you are apart of the 1% that rejects the simulation your screwed. Your just going to wake up again but the date is unknown. A complet memory swipe may do the trick but I think the subconcious(sp?) choice is more embedded in your mind then just a memory. Which leads me further to believe that they never intended to reinsurt Cypher in the first movie because they know he was just going to wake up again. But now however with the rapid increases in awakenings they take everything they can get when it comes to going back 1% or not.
There is also a few insteresting bluepills that pop up in missions. The one that I remember best is in chpt 1 i think and its an ex Zion op that retired and now is back in her pod liveing her life but still remembers everything from back when she was awake. Which may be an alternitive for those that did reject the system and helps keep threw from fully wakeing up
For a code bomb vic or something simular however I think the process is much easier and they are more able to be reinserted and it is basicly "Fly to 01 and go to sleep"

You go by the principal that the same 1% always will reject the system.
This is not true because you don't understand where the 1% comes from, or that you have a different view of where the 1% comes from. SMILEY

The Architect said they gave choice to their bluepills to save more crops (sp?). Instead of losing entire crops they now lost only 1%. So who's responsible for the 1%? The Machines. They already know who will reject the system. The Machines are the ones responsible for your character/charisma/personality, etc.
Neo: "I've got all these memories from my life. Are you saying none of that was real?" - The Machines guide the bluepills through their lives, not yourself. Thus, if you get reinserted and you forget 'everything' you will have a new life, without the risk of being awakened.
Choice is the problem. Computers work with choice all the time: 0 & 1. A computer doesn't know anymore than to turn something on or off. To control humans they have to give them choice: Shall I go left, or right? Shall I go to work today or not? Shall I kiss her, or must I wait? If-then-else is the most used command in any script: If I not kiss her then 'something else'. etc. etc. If not 0 then else = 1. With this logic it's safe to say that the bluepills lives are controlled by the Machines and that their personalities, which are formed by choice, are thus formed by the Machines.
So all in all, when you get reinserted a complete memory whipe is a must. For your old life was part of the 1% that the Machines decided to set free.

That's how I think about it anyway. Now for the truth SMILEY

The Machines are honest. If they say they do something, they do it. Simple as that. They won't tell us reinsertion isn't possible when it isn't. The Architect: "What do you think I am? Human?"

The whole process of reinsertion...I have no clue on how it works. You call an agent, they sent a Sentinel to fly you to the fields, find an empty pod and plug you back in. That's the idea I got from the first movie anyway. How the plugging in works? No idea. We also don't know how babies are grown. This is a part of the Matrix that's nowhere explained.

If reinsertion wouldn't be possible why would they introduce Cypherites as an org? How 'bout the Machines introduction mission, where you get to reinsert a redpill? That's pretty canonical I say.

So it's possible because it's in game.

**ShiXinFeng**

Hmm, I remember there being a thread about this not to long ago on the Matrix Universe board. I don't think we were able to work anything out; it ended up (like so many other things here) as a "play it how you want to" kind of deal.

I would give the standard "that's the problem with science fiction" response except for one thing: it could further the story to greater heights. For example, in Star Trek canon, the original series was very vague about how warp drive worked. Something about antimatter. . .and crystals. . . Flash forward to the Next Gen series, and you have entire episodes of the show devoted to different aspects of the warp drive, and it even becomes a major plot breaker in the movies.

So, making sense of something like this that is certainly canon for our MxO universe should prove to be worthwhile.

For my two cents, re-insertion is a matter of re-implanting yourself into a Matrix that has, in essence, gone on without you. Or forgotten about you. Or whatever your story is. The procedure would look something like this:

Do you wish to be re-inserted, y/n?

"Fine, here's a blue pill"

Do you wish to remember your time Awake, y/n?

"We think that's for the best"

Do you wish to return to your old life, y/n?

"Great! Aunt Molly will be so happy to see you"

If starting a new life, what profession would you like?

"Doctor or teacher?"

Of course, there would be much more to it than that. I think you would have to have a hair removal process, and don't forget that many of the plugs for intravenous feeding, etc are removed after you're Awakened (at least, they were on Neo). In fact, I imagine the whole process to be a lot more traumatic than most people realize when they 'sign up' for it. Maybe the Machines should now have a Reinsertion Processing Center?

Hmm, I see a new story coming on. . .

**Pyraci**

Very good feedback so far. This should be interesting.

One of the instances in the Matrix universe that show reinsertion is in the story Goliath, one of The Matrix comics:

"Can you plug me back into the... the real world. The other world. The one I came from?"
"Mm? I don't know. I'll see." Dark screen once more.
I sat and breathed, in and out, in and out, while I waited. I felt very peaceful. If it wasn't for having less than an hour to live, I'd have felt just great.
The screen glowed. There was no picture, no pattern, no nothing. Just a gentle glow. And a voice, half in my head, half out of it, said, "You got a deal."
There was a sharp pain at the base of my skull. Then blackness, for several minutes.
Then this.
That was fifteen years ago: 1984. I went back into computers. I own my computer store on the Tottenham Court Road. And now, as we head toward the new millennium, I'm writing this down. This time around, I married Susan. It took me a couple of months to find her. We have a son.
I'm nearly forty. People of my kind don't live much longer than that, on the whole. Our hearts stop. When you read this, I'll be dead. You'll know that I'm dead. You'll have seen a coffin big enough for two men dropped into a hole.
But know this, Susan, my sweet: my true coffin is orbiting the moon. It looks like a flying teacup. They gave me the world back, and you back, for a little while. Last time I told you, or someone like you, the truth, or what I knew of it, you walked out on me. And maybe that wasn't you, and I wasn't me, but I don't dare risk it again. So I'm going to write this down, and you'll be given it with the rest of my papers when I'm gone. Goodbye.
They may be heartless, unfeeling, computerised bastards, leeching off the minds of what's left of humanity. But I can't help feeling grateful to them.
I'll die soon. But the last twenty minutes have been the best years of my life.

As we all have our reasons for or against reinsertion, I'm wondering just what goes on in order to prepare the mind and body in the process. If erasing one's memory were an easy feat for the Machines, and if that's all there was to get people reinserted, there would more likely be almost as many reinsertion areas set up as there are REP's. Sure, to the 'patient" it would seem like maybe a few minutes, but there would need to be extensive scarring done to one's personality to remove any notion of knowing what the truth is. That coupled with the fact that within reason, people are able to be extracted on more overt ways now, would suggest that extensive rework would need to be done to avoid reoccurence. Just something to think about Let's keep this going.

**ShiXinFeng**

Not to mention the fact that it's pretty much sci-fi canon that screwing around with people's memories usually tends to have disastrous effects; memory 'ricochets' that cause madness, total memory failure, total recall, recall ending in catatonia, the list is endless.

**Pyraci** · 02/16/2007 08:30:55

Reeverb wrote:

You go by the principal that the same 1% always will reject the system.
This is not true because you don't understand where the 1% comes from, or that you have a different view of where the 1% comes from.
The Architect said they gave choice to their bluepills to save more crops (sp?). Instead of losing entire crops they now lost only 1%. So who's responsible for the 1%? The Machines. They already know who will reject the system. The Machines are the ones responsible for your character/charisma/personality, etc.
Neo: "I've got all these memories from my life. Are you saying none of that was real?" - The Machines guide the bluepills through their lives, not yourself. Thus, if you get reinserted and you forget 'everything' you will have a new life, without the risk of being awakened.
Choice is the problem. Computers work with choice all the time: 0 & 1. A computer doesn't know anymore than to turn something on or off. To control humans they have to give them choice: Shall I go left, or right? Shall I go to work today or not? Shall I kiss her, or must I wait? If-then-else is the most used command in any script: If I not kiss her then 'something else'. etc. etc. If not 0 then else = 1. With this logic it's safe to say that the bluepills lives are controlled by the Machines and that their personalities, which are formed by choice, are thus formed by the Machines.
So all in all, when you get reinserted a complete memory whipe is a must. For your old life was part of the 1% that the Machines decided to set free.

That's how I think about it anyway. Now for the truth
The Machines are honest. If they say they do something, they do it. Simple as that. They won't tell us reinsertion isn't possible when it isn't. The Architect: "What do you think I am? Human?"

The whole process of reinsertion...I have no clue on how it works. You call an agent, they sent a Sentinel to fly you to the fields, find an empty pod and plug you back in. That's the idea I got from the first movie anyway. How the plugging in works? No idea. We also don't know how babies are grown. This is a part of the Matrix that's nowhere explained.

If reinsertion wouldn't be possible why would they introduce Cypherites as an org? How 'bout the Machines introduction mission, where you get to reinsert a redpill? That's pretty canonical I say.

So it's possible because it's in game.

I don't think the idea is impossible. I don't think it would be introduced at all if there wasn't meant to be expansion on it, but I think it's more of a question of the necessity and significance, given the chances of failure(Yes, I said failure), hence the question of feasability.

As far as the Machines being responsible for our character/charisma/personality, if they really had control over it, this would be Equilibrium, and they would have more control over our deviant nature and our reactions. We have to remember that experiences and stimuli don't constitute our personalities. They execute them and bring them to action, or lack thereof.

Also, on the concept of a new life and the risk of being re-awakened, I think there would be a hightened need for a "witness protection program" sort of procedure in this, which would prossibly include the augmenting the brain, perhaps even yielding a new residual self-image in the process. This would increase the chances of anonymity and make the patient less likely to be targetted for extraction again, which would make the process of reinsertion that much more delicate and dangerous.

...and if you're sellin' the blue pill, people may ask these types of questions. SMILEY

Mustang · 02/16/2007 08:34:57

I approached the idea of re-insertion just briefly in the last story that I wrote, actually. In my story, an EPN Captain decides that he's had enough and wants to be re-inserted into the Matrix. The Machines have possession of his body, but he's not plugged back into the pod system yet. They're modifying his memories, one by one. They're using information that is real, and just putting the "correct" spin on it.

After all, half-truthes are easier to believe than whole lies. As far as the EPN Captain knows, he was a liutenant in a terrorist cell operating within the Mega City. Some unknown(to us/me, since I didn't explore it) incident made him re-think his way of life, turn hismelf over to the authorities, testify against his fellow terrorists, and enter the Witness Protection Program where he gets a new identity, home, and life. This fits everything he knows is "true." He was a terrorist, he changed his mind, gave all the information he knew about EPN's activities to the Machines, and was re-inserted into bluepill life.

I don't think it's possible for someone to go back to their old life. After all, in my idea of the Matrix, when a redpill is extracted... he is forgotten by anyone and everyone who ever knew him. As far as the bluepill population is concerned, Mr. Anderson didn't exist after he was pulled out of the Matrix. This could be due to a massive memory wipe(which I don't think is feasible on a large scale), or the Machines simply explaining away his disappearance with a story of his murder or something as such. And to have someone everyone believed was murdered pop back into their lifes would be a huge "ERRRT DOES NOT COMPUTE."

Just my thoughts.

**Garu**

My 2 cents:

Reinsertion should be rather simple. the body is returned to the plant, its taken to a pod and reattached to the power system. This will involve re-fitting the ports (Zion seems to remove as many of the components as possible during awakening), re-inserting the plugs and cables. Naturally the body will atrophy again and all hair will either be removed or will fall off.

The only thing we aren't sure of is how the mind is handled. In MXO, I have ran across mission NPCs who were former redpills, now living as coppertops again. They were level 1 and harmless. Yet, they still remembered everything.

Which makes me believe that perhaps the machines do not manipulate the mind if the person is willing to go back to the system. In the case of a cypherite, I beleive that they may love the system so much that even knowing its fake, they can adapt. In Cypher's case himself, I believe that possibly he didn't want to remember killing nearly his whole crew to get back in. I think that despite his selfishness, he liked his comrades in some shape or form.

In any event, as a machinist, I know that the system has a process of re-insertion. I've escorted many to those locations myself. It's something they wanted to do, so I helped facilitate that desire.

**Pyraci** · 02/16/2007 08:50:52

Mustang wrote:

I don't think it's possible for someone to go back to their old life. After all, in my idea of the Matrix, when a redpill is extracted... he is forgotten by anyone and everyone who ever knew him. As far as the bluepill population is concerned, Mr. Anderson didn't exist after he was pulled out of the Matrix. This could be due to a massive memory wipe(which I don't think is feasible on a large scale), or the Machines simply explaining away his disappearance with a story of his murder or something as such. And to have someone everyone believed was murdered pop back into their lifes would be a huge "ERRRT DOES NOT COMPUTE."
Just my thoughts.

<3

That story is excellent, man. All these ideas for and against are excellent. Don't want to seem like I'm rejecting Verb's take on all this at all, as he has several points as well. Just adding some food for thought. It's good to get Cypherites in on discussions like this. I think we should discuss things like this more often.

...and I agree with Garu's concept. The mind would be the difficult thing to account for. Furthermore, say if there is something done to the mind, would the body necessarily be able to sustain itself if the rewriting process became too much to handle?

**ShadowReapr**

I don't think the Machines control who rejects the system and who doesn't. They tolerate the 1% for the sake of the system.

Depending on whether they accept their old life or wish for a new life changes alot. For a new life, things have to be changed in the brain. I don't think it's as hard as you think - we, simple humans with a few computers, can change what we know - I reckon the Machines, in their technology, know how to alter memories. Probably still a little bit nasty, but they'll probably delete your memories of the pain.

As for those going back to their old lives, I again think it's easier than you think. No-one 'forgets' about awakened people. You have to understand, that 1% who reject the system would likely have done it for most of their lives. Most would be outcasts, and most wouldn't really aspire to much within the Matrix, so would be unimportant. Most would become recluse, and would seemingly just 'drop off' the face of the planet.

Case-in-point: There Are No Flowers In The Real, a comic from Series 2. In it, they simply thought he was dead. Since they wouldn't really know, a bit of story formulation would solve any issues... Found God? Joined a cult? Went on a spiritual journey to Australia? The choice is your- well, the Machines in charge of reinsertion, but who can be picky?

**Pyraci**

ShadowReapr wrote:

Depending on whether they accept their old life or wish for a new life changes alot. For a new life, things have to be changed in the brain. I don't think it's as hard as you think - we, simple humans with a few computers, can change what we know - I reckon the Machines, in their technology, know how to alter memories. Probably still a little bit nasty, but they'll probably delete your memories of the pain.

As for those going back to their old lives, I again think it's easier than you think. No-one 'forgets' about awakened people. You have to understand, that 1% who reject the system would likely have done it for most of their lives. Most would be outcasts, and most wouldn't really aspire to much within the Matrix, so would be unimportant. Most would become recluse, and would seemingly just 'drop off' the face of the planet.

Good point, but now let's define "easier than you think". Of course the Machines would have a large degree over control in the process. They wouldn't offer to take people back in otherwise, non? I'm fairly sure that it would be a fairly easy process to the Machines, but it would still be an intricate, damaging process on the patient nevertheless, as with many medical/surgical procedures.

Also, the bit about the people who rejected the system becoming outcasts in society speaks to the inevitablity of re-extraction, which is in itself, another interesting topic.