All Machines go to Heaven?

**GamiSB** · 06/19/2008 14:04:38

Ok so let's assume for a moment that we are all religious and believe in a heaven. Would a Machine/Program/Exile go to heaven? If so or if not, why?

Doesn't matter which religions as they all have somewhat different takes on it, just make sure to state which one.

To start us off I'll bring up Christianity and ask a few questions. Now the Christian faith believes that it is only through an acceptance of ones incapability to atone for their wrong doings and reliance upon God and his son Jesus to make that atonement that one would be allowed into heaven.

Now with just a first glance one would say yes because all that is needed for this to take place is a program running that has the Machine believe such. But would this be enough let alone is it a real belief or not just some programmed one? This then steps into other religious beliefs that good works are what gets you in, but if a program has one set of rules and is incapable of doing wrong does this still apply? They are not doing it for God or for others but only because they are programmed to do such.

This works the other way to. Say a program is created to be unable to depend on God for salvation or is incapable of doing "good". Are they to be blamed for there misdeeds?

Ebola

Well, in the series Battlestar Galactica, the Cylons are sentient Machines. They believe in God (most at least), and are deeply Religious. They believe in heaven and all that stuff. I do not recall seeing the Machines make a reference to God or believing in God, though they do say they have souls (some at least lol) I guess it just depends, if they live their lives as "good" Machines then I guess like "good" humans or Cylons, they will go to heaven.

TheShickle · 06/19/2008 14:19:59

Seeing as humans are created by God, as was Earth and Heaven - they (just as the former and latter) are eternal. However, The Matrix was not created by Man, or God, (created by Machine, not eternal). Seeing as programs are written by other programs or other Machines, they are not the direct byproduct of God or Humanity.

Seeing as a program is AI, (ARTIFICIAL Intelligence) and when it is to be deleted (REPLACED), it goes to the source to be overwritten/erased. The deletion of an artificial being, the contents of your "Recycle Bin" do not go to Heaven, would not result in a soul leaving a body.

Now this opens up the debate for whether programs and machines have a soul. Personally I believe that (just as an RSI is the host of a program) our bodies are the hosts for our souls. That being true (for the sake of my arguement), then the equivalent of a Machine/program's soul would be their "hard copy" or machine in the Real World.

So a program or machine would not go to Heaven (or Hell), but perhaps some "graveyard" in the real, where their "soul (the hard copy or w/e it may be)" remains existent.

TheShickle

I am surprised this thread is as vacant as it is.

privaronT

Simply put no..

The Machines made Deus Ex Machina.

They broke the first commandment and as a result they are not capable of Heaven.

**Croesis** · 06/23/2008 09:23:29

In order to ask whether self aware, intelligent Machines/Programs etc go to a place after 'death' as Humans would, you firstly assume that there is such a place.

Most Humans believe that they will go to heaven based on what? Belief. There is no actual evidence that the place exists. If the sentient programs believe that they will go, what excludes them from going?

I'd like someone to prove that a God made mankind, and that Humans go to heaven. A belief structure limited to Human thinking is going to be inherently flawed imo, but thats all it boils down to, belief.

The Machines have intelligence, we call it artificial because it can be built and it is different from our intelligence, but we are both species are machines simply made in different ways from different materials.

So do Machines go to heaven? Do Humans go to heaven? Who knows, but if they believe in it who is anyone to deny them it?

Zudrag

privaron0 wrote:

Simply put no..

The Machines made Deus Ex Machina.

They broke the first commandment and as a result they are not capable of Heaven.

Isn't that more in line with the second commandment? They don't seem to actually worship it or anything.

**Croesis**

Zudrag wrote:

privaron0 wrote:
Simply put no..

The Machines made Deus Ex Machina.

They broke the first commandment and as a result they are not capable of Heaven.
Isn't that more in line with the second commandment? They don't seem to actually worship it or anything.

While we may see it as a 'god' of the Machines or whatever and gave it that term, the Machines may see it merely as the voice of their civilisation. The commandments form part of a Human belief structure, one that when made did not, could not take into account the Machine civilisation.

privaronT · 06/23/2008 09:22:17

Zudrag wrote:

privaron0 wrote:
Simply put no..

The Machines made Deus Ex Machina.

They broke the first commandment and as a result they are not capable of Heaven.
Isn't that more in line with the second commandment? They don't seem to actually worship it or anything.

You know if we look at the literal factual information we have been given I would say the second and possibly the third given the nature of the name Deus Ex Machina would be a much easier argument to make. Theres a good chance that given the fact that the story in any fashion comic Movie or video game has not touched on it that your definitely right.

There is no proof in any form that it is a religious figure of any sorts but given the name I would make the assumption that it may hold some sort of religious significance to sentient machines.

With that said though I have attended three different religious schools in my lifetime the only thing I walked out of them with is realizing that when interpreting the Commandments and for that matter a large majority of scripture it really comes down to a matter of theological debate and point of view.

Which in turn makes one wonder not only if Machines are capable of heaven but if they really even want it. Look at all the varying points of view that humans have regarding spiritual faith their views whether tied to creationism atheism or agnostic belief structures could be endless or simply non existent.

EDIT:

Also I would like to comment on my views of their being no factual proof of a higher plane of existence Vinia.

The thought that belief although paramount to religious thinking is the only true basis of it's existence is presumptive to say the least. It implies that we are the highest power within our social structure and that all information is free to be interpreted by mankind.

I believe if looked at with an open "or maybe" paranoid mind its safe to say human society whether it be through the church state or nation is not fully aware of the factual information that has been proven by other higher ranking social structures. I do ALOT of personal thinking on this as I consider myself an optimistic agnostic until proven otherwise. I think the safest bet for people to find a real level of truth and clarity about our origins is a symbiosis of both creationism and science. Dogmatic discounting of either community or thought process only leads to more locked doors and unanswered questions.

**ShiXinFeng**

Most religions have, at their heart, as the final step into the unknown a form of transcendentalism. Christians, Muslims, and Jews all believe in a Heaven. Buddhists and Taoists believe, I think, in spiritual enlightenment and becoming one with the universe.

The fundamental path for all of these religions is through a surrendering, either to the will of the Creator, God, or to the knowledge that as an individual they are insignificant and must join the universe to acheive a kind of immortality whereby they do the most good in the universe.

The act of surrender is a wholly selfless act of free-will. It cannot be forced or programmed. Generally speaking, Machines and programs need input to carry out their functions. (every program and Machine has a purpose; if it loses it's purpose, it immediately goes to find another as is the case with Exiles in the Matrix) However, most practitioners of religious dogma have no input. They operate solely on the faith that their actions will lead them to enlightenment/heaven.

Therefore, while it is possible that a Machine might become sentient, it is not possible for them to become the faithful follower of an intangible and imperceivable God.

In many of our stories about Machine sentience, this is largely the reason that Machines are not trusted by man. Though there is great intelligence and a general discipline to uphold those things accepted by society, there is no "moral compass" in them; only functions, directives, orders, processes, and programs. Even the Oracle never acknowledges the 'good' of what she is doing, only that there is no other way for Man and Machine to survive than to do so together.

**Croesis** · 06/23/2008 09:59:42

There may very well be another level of existence that we cannot imagine, I just simply do not feel that any religion and it's respective terms of entry is even close. I believe that religion is a Human creation, an interpretation of what many believe guided by hope and a section of society.

While religion is founded in belief, it is only seen from the Human aspect, and therein lies a problem. I believe that belief is the very basis of religion due to the very fact that Humans aren't aware of all the facts. If you had all the facts it wouldn't be belief, it'd be knowledge.

Belief isn't a bad thing, considering that on the current subject we may never gain all the facts, but it is open to inaccuracy and perversion.

privaronT

Vinia wrote:

There may very well be another level of existence that we cannot imagine, I just simply do not feel that any religion and it's respective terms of entry is even close. I believe that religion is a Human creation, an interpretation of what many believe guided by hope and a section of society.

While religion is founded in belief, it is only seen from the Human aspect, and therein lies a problem. I believe that belief is the very basis of religion due to the very fact that Humans aren't aware of all the facts. If you had all the facts it wouldn't be belief, it'd be knowledge.

Belief isn't a bad thing, considering that on the current subject we may never gain all the facts, but it is open to inaccuracy and perversion.

Great points ShiXinFang

With that said though Vinia scientific reasoning and "fact' as many people like to call it is just as open to perversion if not arguably more.

I would like to see a renowned scientist take a trip down to West Virgina to a Southern Baptist church with considerable facts and charts disproving the theory of creationism and attempt to in their views corrupt their point of view.

If anything belief based thinking is less corruptable in its inception because it allows the person to reason and choose what they as a human being believe in.

Scientific fact in itself can be deemed in many cases a corruption of human thought process as a result of forcing what has been deemed by history itself an infinite cascade of lies and flavor of the month theory based reports.

With that said though I fully agree with you that mankind is not fully aware of the origins of life but I must have belief in some respects that we at least have some idea. Patterns found in many religions could either be deemed as categorization of thought process or differing accounts and through time distorted perceptions of the true nature or origin of mankind.

I suppose what it really boils down to for each of us is a matter of belief or lack of it. I believe in having faith in mankind while perceiving machine and science as a gift and one to be greatly respected and appreciated as an equal while many people see it as either a tool or something to worship and submit to. It's the same way I think about The Matrix. There is no absolute right way to doing things. It's only through a true symbiotic submission to our own universal and connected existence that we will ever have a chance to find a real truth.

**GamiSB** · 06/23/2008 14:09:38

Vinia wrote:

In order to ask whether self aware, intelligent Machines/Programs etc go to a place after 'death' as Humans would, you firstly assume that there is such a place.
Most Humans believe that they will go to heaven based on what? Belief. There is no actual evidence that the place exists. If the sentient programs believe that they will go, what excludes them from going?
I'd like someone to prove that a God made mankind, and that Humans go to heaven. A belief structure limited to Human thinking is going to be inherently flawed imo, but thats all it boils down to, belief.
The Machines have intelligence, we call it artificial because it can be built and it is different from our intelligence, but we are both species are machines simply made in different ways from different materials.
So do Machines go to heaven? Do Humans go to heaven? Who knows, but if they believe in it who is anyone to deny them it?

GamiSB wrote:

Ok so let's assume for a moment that we are all religious and believe in a heaven.

GAH! it just struck me how rude that sounds. I understand what your saying and that is the very first logical step in answering the question but as there is no answer that we can determine from it we must then over step it and move on. That being if there is a heaven, do Machines get to go.

**Croesis** · 06/23/2008 14:14:30

GamiSB wrote:

Vinia wrote:
In order to ask whether self aware, intelligent Machines/Programs etc go to a place after 'death' as Humans would, you firstly assume that there is such a place.
Most Humans believe that they will go to heaven based on what? Belief. There is no actual evidence that the place exists. If the sentient programs believe that they will go, what excludes them from going?
I'd like someone to prove that a God made mankind, and that Humans go to heaven. A belief structure limited to Human thinking is going to be inherently flawed imo, but thats all it boils down to, belief.
The Machines have intelligence, we call it artificial because it can be built and it is different from our intelligence, but we are both species are machines simply made in different ways from different materials.
So do Machines go to heaven? Do Humans go to heaven? Who knows, but if they believe in it who is anyone to deny them it?
GamiSB wrote:
Ok so let's assume for a moment that we are all religious and believe in a heaven.

Fine, so assuming we are all religious. Yes they will, if they believe in it. Whether it be the same 'heaven' as ours or their own, based on their own 'religious beliefs'. They are sentient, they're just made up of differing materials, I don't see how they are much different. The spark that makes a human aware, there must be a Machine/Program equivalent if they are self aware too.

**GamiSB**

Vinia wrote:

GamiSB wrote:
Vinia wrote:
In order to ask whether self aware, intelligent Machines/Programs etc go to a place after 'death' as Humans would, you firstly assume that there is such a place.
Most Humans believe that they will go to heaven based on what? Belief. There is no actual evidence that the place exists. If the sentient programs believe that they will go, what excludes them from going?
I'd like someone to prove that a God made mankind, and that Humans go to heaven. A belief structure limited to Human thinking is going to be inherently flawed imo, but thats all it boils down to, belief.
The Machines have intelligence, we call it artificial because it can be built and it is different from our intelligence, but we are both species are machines simply made in different ways from different materials.
So do Machines go to heaven? Do Humans go to heaven? Who knows, but if they believe in it who is anyone to deny them it?
GamiSB wrote:
Ok so let's assume for a moment that we are all religious and believe in a heaven.

Fine. Yes they will, if they believe in it. They are sentient, they're just made up of differing materials, I don't see how they are much different. The spark that makes a human aware, there must be a Machine/Program equivalent if they are self aware too.

This is the same way I feel. Because really at their cores man and Machine are completely the same. We are just like them, we need inputs to construct our beliefs. I like to relate it to flying. We never dream to fly until we saw a bird do it before us. For every action a reaction sorta thing. Thus free will is non existent and can not be the step into heaven as then no one would make it in. So then a programing to which all beings must conform to would be the next best guess in which anything as long as it conforms to the programing needed to make it in is allowed.

Like a key, you have to have the right notches in order to unlock the door. Without them you can't get inside.