This does confirm, however, that the humans struck first.

 

 

Illyria

No it only confirms what an assembly line droid was told and supposedly saw. There is a reason an eye witness' testimony doesn't hold in court without evidence to back it up you know. Give ya a hint that reason starts with a b.

((Also I think its BS that if this is true that Rarebits banking off of the public's assumption rather then taking note of the major contradiction that a Zion captain is declaring that who attacked first was unknown while the Zion archives are saying (or at least hinting) that it was humans who did. But whatever))

Morraeon: Oh ye *GODS* of the underworld, if that bucket of bits "bip"-ped one more time, I'd "bip" him in a completely different order.

Sieges: You weren't there, and if you had, Tranque would have put you on a leash. ...Very, very enlightening... and I wonder if the Oligarchs, or whatever they're called are looking for applicants...

((...taking note of the major contradiction that a Zion captain is declaring that who attacked first was unknown while the Zion archives are saying (or at least hinting) that it was humans who did. But whatever))

GamiSB wrote:

((...taking note of the major contradiction that a Zion captain is declaring that who attacked first was unknown while the Zion archives are saying (or at least hinting) that it was humans who did. But whatever))

((I take it you are referring to Morpheus' introduction speech to Neo? If so I don't think it's a major contradiction. All it could mean is that he was saying it to convince Neo to fight for them or, and I think this is more likely, he didn't believe all aspects of the Zion archive.))

((It may not be a major contradiction however all we have to go off of is Morpheus speech (although i want to say it was stated somewhere else in MxO that it was unknown possibly by the operator) and while Morpheus motives could imply he was manipulating Neo other factors (condition of the human race, after effects of the war, etc. Not to mention Neo already trusted him before takeing the pill) would be better to do so, so I'll just say that it is unknown but highly unlikely that Morpheus was using that bit to turn Neo towards him. And as for the Archives, they are at best unreliable sence reloaded points out that it is all but fabricated by the machines and now we have a Machine telling us what we are already lead to assume (though incorrectly I still believe)))

GamiSB wrote:

((It may not be a major contradiction however all we have to go off of is Morpheus speech (although i want to say it was stated somewhere else in MxO that it was unknown possibly by the operator) and while Morpheus motives could imply he was manipulating Neo other factors (condition of the human race, after effects of the war, etc. Not to mention Neo already trusted him before takeing the pill) would be better to do so, so I'll just say that it is unknown but highly unlikely that Morpheus was using that bit to turn Neo towards him. And as for the Archives, they are at best unreliable sence reloaded points out that it is all but fabricated by the machines and now we have a Machine telling us what we are already lead to assume (though incorrectly I still believe)))

((I can't say that I thought that Neo trusted him, not completely, he didn't even believe him after the explanation and also asked if it was possible to go back, to which Morpheus replied something like 'no, but if you could, would you?' Neo went along with Morpheus because he promised answers to something he felt all his life. As I said though Morpheus may not have believed the Archives himself anyway. As for the storyline, true that not much you hear can be taken at face value especially if it confirms what we've already assumed but not everything can be wrapped in mystery and plot twists. I don't think that an assembly Machine has a reason to lie about it's experiences, it's possible that it was lied to from higher up but even then a first strike from the Machines would have been noticed even by the workers, they are/were intelligent individuals, not slaves to their own species, with no information about outside world. I can't tell you what to believe, I doubt that you can be persuaded either, but I believe that you are clutching at straws despite what we know of Human nature.))

((My only problem with it is that the W bros left us with the first strike remaining unknown and no reason to think that we would ever find it. Now that they are all but out of the way a lot lately while interesting is being allowed to slip past them and you can't help but wonder do they actually know what it is going on in here story wise. We have now an element of the story that is being presented as fact that is based off of a public assumption (which was quiet wrong at the time) of who struck first after seeing the start of SR part 2. That's concern. That and the denying human nature argument doesn't work, "Then man made the machine in his own likeness." Opening quote for the machines in SR if we are to believe it. If they are based off of humans then their nature is just like ours and they are just as capable.))

ooc: I think this is still an ambiguous plot point in the Matrix story. Obviously, arguments can be made on both sides that all we have heard is the Machine POV on the war through the Zion Archives (fabricated by the Machines), and now this old robot. Which, by the way, did anyone catch why this thing is still around and hasn't been deleted? Anyway, the point is, this is not as definitive as it may seem.

I think it's safe to say at this point that the W's don't give two *poops* about this storyline anymore. Rarebit gets the broad story approved like once a year or something (which is actually probably just read and approved by a personal assistant to one of the W's) and so long as he doesn't come at us with a revelation like "Smith was actually *CENSORED*" or "Neo and Trinity had a baby; Trineo!" or something crazy like that, they don't really care what happens.

I seriously doubt that if the Wachowski's ever revisited the Matrix material again (say, for a set of prequels in ten years), they would count any of MxO as canon, or, more likely, they would just never acknowledge any of this in anything new they came out with. 

((Making the Machine in his own likeness doesn't mean duplicating their nature. They were made subservient, this is obvious when they were set to work while mankind sat on the benefit. If they were made with the nature of Humans at that time conflict between the two species would have shown up a lot quicker as well as between the species of Machine. By the time the first strike happened the Machines had already redesigned themselves, evolved themselves if you like. They had their own place well away from Humans yet still traded equitably with them for a while despite the fact that Humans had tried to hunt them down and destroy them all, they even applied to the united nations.

"Man made the Machine in his own likeness." Outward appearances yes, man did, he gave them a face 2 arms and 2 legs in order to make them fit in more with society, probably done so to help the Humans get past the fact that these are Machines, yet that was possibly a mistake because as much as Mankind fears/hates difference, it fears/hates difference that cannot be easily distinguished (in terms of likeness) from itself a whole lot more.

Also, why was public assumption wrong at the time? It's a pretty thin argument to say that the archive was definitely made by the Machines and even if it was to say that its not telling the truth. You cannot disprove the Archive just because it may or may not have been written by the Machines. Besides, the story moves on even without the W Bros. They left it in the hands of other people and if they don't want to take interest in what happens after then that is their decision. Just because the public made the assumption doesn't mean that it had an influence on it, the story may have been heading that way in the first place.

I would rather the story continue as it is with someone else who is, imo, doing a great job with what he can do then let the story get stagnant awaiting input from the original writers. Personally, I will not cling to the movies and animations every time the current story writer makes a decision unless it is a direct contradiction with what we know is fact, which is very little. Yes it brings up the problem of peoples RP going to pot but that is always a risk when writing a story based on a story where little fact is known.))

((B166er is evidence enough that the Machines were and are capable of willing to do anything adn go to any means to survive. It is just as equally as likely that after being denied entry into the UN the Machines took a hostile approach in fear of an upcoming attack by those that denied them entry (similar to how the Machines restarted the war because Zion wouldn't let them into New Zion) And for what purpose would mankind attack first has yet to even been theorized? You just kicked them our of the UN so....what? Bomb the *poop* out of them? Good story telling right there don't ya think? Later the Second Renaissance even makes a point that the Machines were endowed with "the spirit of man" a pessimist like yourself about humanity should easily be able to figure what that would mean.

As to why public assumption was wrong. First, Morpheus stating the first gunshot was unknown, again a Zion captain saying something different then what a Zion archive supposedly suggest? One that can easily be double checked by anyone in Zion? Makes sense to me Trust is so easily regained after all. Second, the Archives never says who attacked. Part 1 ends with denying 01 entry into the UN and part 2 picks up with bombs being dropped on 01. Nothing said about a time span in between or why its happening, it just is. So even if Morpheus was trying to deceive Neo or just didn't believe it, these ideas don't work because the archive gives him nothing to base these ideas off of. In other words he doesn't need to disbelieve it because he has nothing to tell him who did attack first. He means it out right, he has no idea who attacked first. Third reason, the Machines system of control. What good does giving or allowing Zion to obtain a record of them proving that humanity attacked first do for them? If anything it would make Zion think "Hey we screwed up at the start, maybe we should rethink things." Which would eliminate the need to keep Zion under there thumb. So either the Machine has no interest in peace unless it serves there own agenda (getting rid of Smith etc) or they lost recorded as well.

If we are going to go with everything that is just guessed at without actually takeing a moment and thinking we might as well bring back reinsertion, Morpheus, and Neo back from the dead and just give everyone what they want rather then trying to stay true to what has already been given. If it does turn out that Zion attacked first that's fine, but explain it a way that's original and not just banking off of how people want it to be explained, especially when their bases is completely wrong.

God I can finally say I empathize with Stewart at this point

((Once more you cannot simply go with what was previously given as the story is continuing, especially if what was presented earlier was an admission of doubt. 'We don't know' is a statement that they don't know for sure. If the archives gave people the assumption then Morpheus would have had something to base the ideas off of.

Lack of hard evidence does not mean an assumption is wrong. I for one do not believe that the story is being guided by the assumptions of the public or the player base, if that were the case reinsertion would still be possible. Because an assumption is found to be true or seems to be true does not mean that the story was influenced by it. Unless you can prove that the W Bros and anyone else involved in developing the story, then and now, had changed the story to go with public assumption then suggesting that's what been done is completely wrong.

Again lack of hard evidence, the words of a biased individual and a theory about why the Machines left or made the archive, does not mean an assumption is wrong especially when the evidence to the contrary is equally as weak.

The story was made ambiguous to begin with but when the time comes to focus in on a certain aspect it cannot remain ambiguous without the story becoming stagnant. As for Zion even if the Archives did say that Mankind struck first, do you really think they'd go 'oh, yeah it really was our fault... lets stop fighting for mankind's freedom eh?'" />)

((No three valid reasons give evidence as to why those assumptions are wrong and do not work. Please explain to me exactly how Morpheus is able to generate a lie about who attacked first when he has nothing to go off of? Explain to me exactly why Zion would still be in a war that they knew they started for an apparently misguided reason and yet are so eager to continue on with it. Explain how they would know who attacked first when their archive doesnt even say who attacked first, and explain to me exactly how letting Zion know they started the war plays into the Machine's control or even ZIon's own agenda. You can't, why? Because all of these ideas are wrong.

Morpheus can't deny what the Archives say when they don't say anything about it. People can't assume they hint at something because A) it doesn't make sense for Zion to throw about information that they started the war, B) it doesn't make sense for the Machines to do that either, C) The Archive doesnt even mention so you can't make an assumption on what happened without anything even mentioning it.. It says 01 denied from the UN, bombs are dropped on 01. No reasons why. And nothing that took place in between. 

So I guess then that it is just cowincedence that the most common and voiced assumption out of the three is the one that Rarebit picked to use as his explanation (or at least an outline for it) of what happened? As I said I'm not against the idea, oh no. If that's how it is, awesome. I'm against seeing the use of miss-assumed ideas as a bases for said explanation.

As for Zion no i don't think they would say that word for word. I guess my attempt at sarcasm failed (yay Internet). But knowing that the war and your current condition is all your fault does change things. At the least it would raise the question in everyone "Why are we still fighting?" At its best it would make it clear that mankind screwed up and they need to try and fix things. Both of these ideas and anything in between have yet to be seen in the current outlook of Zion.))

OOC:

I think at this point, we really shouldn't concern ourselves with canon or contradictions or whatever role the Wachowskis are playing now. Lets just deal with things as they come up, and try not to nitpick everything and enjoy the story for what it is.