Tranque101 wrote:

Two sides to every coin.

Not when the coin can say "get me out of here." When that happens, the just and unjust are pretty clear.

Its pointless to argue about these sorts of things. One group says they're right and then the other group insults them and says why they are right. Does it matter? No.

We're all here to do what we're all here to do.

 But go ahead. Continue if you must.

Neoteny wrote:

Tranque101 wrote:

Two sides to every coin.

Not when the coin can say "get me out of here." When that happens, the just and unjust are pretty clear.

  So... every person in prison, who says "Get me out of here!" should be freed and the corrections officers should be labeled "unjust." We're just doing the right thing, EPN's simply doing as they're told. If the Machines want to do it, it must be bad. Your idiocy will be your undoing.
     As for Ms. Morton, that silly %#@%& belongs with the rest of the lobotomy kids in EPN. Frankly I hope she dies in her pod. Ingrate.

Ah yes the true colors of the Machine comes out. Innocent bystanders until they decided they don't like the systems care. Then they are "ingrates".

The difference between Theresa and any prisoner is that every person in prison is supposedly given a trail. Theresa on the other had was abducted and held captive without such. Innocent until proven guilty indeed. Taken under the guise of trying to "Protect" her. She told you then she did not want your help and even after a week inside your safety she still wanted no part.

And that's funny, we are the ones just doing as told? This coming from a member of the organization that is known for its red tape, secrets, and telling its operatives to jump without any reason as to why.

She was not abducted. Abduction is the illegal carrying or enticing away of a person. Seeing as the Machines are the authority of the system, they did not take her illegally. She was taken into custody legally because she was suspected of aiding terrorists despite what the system and it's operatives had done to protect her earlier from the sniper. As with most people in custody they are held for questioning for a certain period of time before being formally charged or released.

Her being 'rescued' by EPN is evidence towards her being used by or indeed actually being a terrorist and as such any further incidences with her will see her being held on actual charges of terrorism instead of a suspicion of aiding terrorists.

Well done EPN, instead of waiting to see what the outcome of her situation would be, your misguided 'moral and ethical' decision and ethos has in fact condemned her to either a life of caves and war outside the simulation or persued as a terrorist inside the simulation. Do you think in a few months time she'll still be thanking you?

She was not abducted. Abduction is the illegal carrying or enticing away of a person. Seeing as the Machines are the authority of the system, they did not take her illegally. She was taken into custody legally because she was suspected of aiding terrorists despite what the system and it's operatives had done to protect her earlier from the sniper. As with most people in custody they are held for questioning for a certain period of time before being formally charged or released.

Her being 'rescued' by EPN is evidence towards her being used by or indeed actually being a terrorist and as such any further incidences with her will see her being held on actual charges of terrorism instead of a suspicion of aiding terrorists.

Well done EPN, instead of waiting to see what the outcome of her situation would be, your misguided 'moral and ethical' decision and ethos has in fact condemned her to either a life of caves and war outside the simulation or persued as a terrorist inside the simulation. Do you think in a few months time she'll still be thanking you?

SEPET wrote:

This is your problem....
You think to Bluepill like thing, Theresa not belong to machines, she not belong to the system, so tell me, what if  you were her, time ago you where luck and zion offer you the choice to see the truth, and today you choose to fight for the machine, you choose yourself, you choose cause you are free to do that like individual, you are not a thing....  So why Theresa do not have the right to choose as individual to?? You think to be better than her.....

We can have condamned her to a life of caves and war, but are real things not all lies, and all the free humans know that is better live in the desert of real than not live at all in a fake simulation.... If we think than in a few month she still thanking us? You can bet it Vinia, cause we offered her the same choiche that once you haved and that all human should have...

Funny isn't it how Humans wouldn't hesitate calling something they made, despite having it's own intelligence, property. Yet when the Machines create Humans in the fields you deny the same logic. Does she belong to the Machines and to the system? Some would most likely say yes... she does. She was made by them, she was part of their system. But no I don't think of her as a thing otherwise I wouldn't be concerned about her safety and her future.

As for the choice, I've said it before everyone has the choice and makes it day in, day out. What gives Zion the right to prey on Mankinds innate sense of curiosity and make them choose once more and at the same time introduce more and more uncertainty to their lives? Also you are wrong. Not all free Humans think that it is better to live in the real. Do you really think that caves, war, fear that is experienced in the real are better for each and every person than a home, peace, comfort and their own lives in a simulation? Cypherites are a case in point as is Danielle Wright, plus I suspect many Merovingian operatives would prefer to live in the simulation as much as possible.

That 'fake' simulation as you put it, allows for Humans to comfortably live out their lives as our ancestors did, with no war to worry about, the only thing affecting their lives are their own decisions and those of others around them. This is the only way to ensure Mankinds continued safety and existance as a species until the day when Mankind is able to live with the Machines without malice and prejudice, in the meantime people like myself will be trying to show the Machines that Humans can do just that.

Just because you imposed your 'choice' on her doesn't mean she'll be thanking you down the line. How many recruits have died due to Zion and EPN operations in the real? You have inflicted the war and sufering on the poor woman. Now tell me, was that mentioned to her when offering the choice? Was she told the full extent of the situation? Or did you come up with the awfully convenient line of 'we can't tell you exactly, you'll have to see for yourself'? Not everyone you free will be a Zionite or member of EPN, and No I don't thank Zion for waking me, my choice was based on the teams omitting of certain aspects of the 'truth' and clouding other to try to convince me to see their side of things. I quickly saw the full picture of things which is why I so quickly left Zion.

I wasn't even ready, In fact I was lucky to get through extraction intact. I've since been told that you shouldn't release a mind after it reaches a certain age as the mind has difficulties letting go. I take it Zion and EPN ignore this now?

She was not abducted. Abduction is the illegal carrying or enticing away of a person. Seeing as the Machines are the authority of the system, they did not take her illegally. She was taken into custody legally because she was suspected of aiding terrorists despite what the system and it's operatives had done to protect her earlier from the sniper. As with most people in custody they are held for questioning for a certain period of time before being formally charged or released.

And this statement finally exposes that you have no morality of your own, and that you simply follow whatever rule they throw out there. You realize this is the same mentality that permitted slavery, segregation, and genocides, most notably, the holocaust? But no worry, mother machine knows what's best, doesn't she? Certainly, she hasn't killed bluepills before. Oh wait...

As for her "release" - why don't you go fetch her release date from the agents? Or is that information too classified for someone of a human security clearance level? They knew she wanted nothing to do with them and that she would almost certainly seek EPN out again if freed.

But it's funny, really, how you can say that they're oh-so confused about the entire situation, yet cognizant enough to escape your clutches and "be in bed with 'terrorists'" in the same breath. Which is it? Are they too low on the totem pole to understand the world around them? Or do they freely and willingly aid and abide "terrorists?" You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I don't think you've any say in whether or not she was "condemned" to begin with, nor do I think you have any voice to say that EPN forced her into it. If you might take a gander at their bluepill log, they had, for a while, classified her as one not to be awakened, yet you forced their hand by abducting (a word I and many others clearly define as the forced movement and holding of someone against their own will) Theresa Morton, making the red pill the only way for her to evade Machine pursuit. She never would have escaped government custody within the Matrix and even if she had attempted to by running every day and every night, can you really call that a better existance than the truth she was already interested in, found in the Real? You would call that a comfortable existence? She would have found only overwrite or death within the Matrix, with overwrite being as good as death.

Most of humanity can find a somewhat comfortable, or, at the very least, satisfying existence in the Real and the very fact that you would even mention Cypherites as a "counterexample" shows that you're grabbing for straws. But I see far more Cypherites than I do Machinists these days anyway. Funny how those tunes changed when they told you to start fighting us. Funny how awakenings suddenly became highest felony. Hilarious how two once distinct factions, one which supported the Machines and worked in close cooperation with Zion for over two years suddenly has become indistinct from the one which has worked to eliminate freedom and promote control from the beginning.

I don't know that I even see Machinists anymore. And I wonder how many of them can see themselves for that man in the mask and the cold eyes staring back at them through the mirror's glass.

And this statement finally exposes that you have no morality of your own, and that you simply follow whatever rule they throw out there. You realize this is the same mentality that permitted slavery, segregation, and genocides, most notably, the holocast? But no worry, mother machine knows what's best, doesn't she? Certainly, she hasn't killed bluepills before. Oh wait...

As for her "release" - why don't you go fetch her release date from the agents? Or is that information too classified for someone of a human security clearance level? They knew she wanted nothing to do with them and that she would almost certainly seek EPN out again if freed.

But it's funny, really, how you can say that they're oh-so confused about the entire situation, yet cognizant enough to escape your clutches and "be in bed with 'terrorists'" in the same breath. Which is it? Are they too low on the totem pole to understand the world around them? Or do they freely and willingly aid and abide "terrorists?" You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I don't think you've any say in whether or not she was "condemned" to begin with, nor do I think you have any voice to say that EPN forced her into it. If you might take a gander at their bluepill log, they had, for a while, classified her as one not to be awakened, yet you forced their hand by abducting (a word I and many others clearly define as the forced movement and holding of someone against their own will) Theresa Morton, making the red pill the only way for her to evade Machine pursuit. She never would have escaped government custody within the Matrix and even if she had attempted to by running every day and every night, can you really call that a better existance than the truth she was already interested in, found in the Real? You would call that a comfortable existence? She would have found only overwrite or death within the Matrix, with overwrite being as good as death.

Most of humanity can find a somewhat comfortable, or, at the very least, satisfying existence in the Real and the very fact that you would even mention Cypherites as a "counterexample" shows that you're grabbing for straws. But I see far more Cypherites than I do Machinists these days anyway. Funny how those tunes changed when they told you to start fighting us. Funny how awakenings suddenly became highest felony. Hilarious how two once distinct factions, one which supported the Machines and worked in close cooperation with Zion for over two years suddenly has become indistinct from the one which has worked to eliminate freedom and promote control from the beginning.

I don't know that I even see Machinists anymore. And I wonder how many of them can see themselves for that man in the mask and the cold eyes staring back at them through the mirror's glass.

The rules have been this way since the beginning, they were there in civilised human society since before AI and again within the simulation. It's called law, morality has nothing to do with following laws that are not unjust. The arresting of a person suspected of aiding terrorists is not unjustified. If I had no morality I would not have been opposed to Pace's sanction of a bluepill murder. I was.

Her choice of aiding you does not mean she knew enough about the simulation to warrant awakening. Curiosity is one thing wanting out and away from the law is another. Even according to your bluepill log, she wasn't ready. Do you think she was in her right mind after the events a week or two earlier? Did you give her a psyche evaluation? She didn't exactly escape her detention of her own abilities did she, she had the intervention of you 'Crusaders'. And yes, you condemned her as soon as you insisted on breaking her out of legal detention. EPN used her arrest (a word that is defined by a legal forced movement and holding of someone against their own will) as an excuse to make her choose. Funny how it used to be those who wanted out of the simulation should be freed, now it's just anyone who is in trouble with the authorities. You are unable to say that she wouldn't have been released, you cannot say she would have been overwritten. You only make these accusations to further justify your actions.

I don't see how stating that Cypherites is clutching at straws. They are Humans who preferred life in the Simulation, did you take that into consideration when you see increasing numbers of them, within the simulation? I also gave Danielle Wright as an example, is that clutching at straws too?

You obviously aren't looking very hard at the two factions. One is willing to commit to violence whenever possible while the other would prefer to proceed in alternative ways, but Zion and EPN are the cause of many people's attitudes changing. Zion was sanctioned to wake potentials during the truce, that changed once you broke it so yes, you actions while trespassing within the simulation are seen as felony's. I find it hilarious that you are unable to make the distinction between murdering group of masked to whom violence is the only way to achieve anything and would rather see humanity sleep permanently and a group of people who work to better relations between mankind and machinekind in an aim to get them to eventually live together for mutual benefit. Zion and EPN actions are destroying what Machinists are working for so we have no choice but take steps against you. However as always, Machinists prefer alternative ways to achieve objectives such as taking a suspect into custody and questioning her rather than, for example, simply killing her.

We are not the only ones who have killed bluepills. I seem to remember a new redpill program, that wasn't tested enough, used on a bluepill who didn't make it. Do you blame that on the Machines? Do you blame them because they were at war with you and were exploiting a security hole? How about looking further into why they were at war with you, why they were exploiting that security...

And this statement finally exposes that you have no morality of your own, and that you simply follow whatever rule they throw out there. You realize this is the same mentality that permitted slavery, segregation, and genocides, most notably, the holocast? But no worry, mother machine knows what's best, doesn't she? Certainly, she hasn't killed bluepills before. Oh wait...

As for her "release" - why don't you go fetch her release date from the agents? Or is that information too classified for someone of a human security clearance level? They knew she wanted nothing to do with them and that she would almost certainly seek EPN out again if freed.

But it's funny, really, how you can say that they're oh-so confused about the entire situation, yet cognizant enough to escape your clutches and "be in bed with 'terrorists'" in the same breath. Which is it? Are they too low on the totem pole to understand the world around them? Or do they freely and willingly aid and abide "terrorists?" You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I don't think you've any say in whether or not she was "condemned" to begin with, nor do I think you have any voice to say that EPN forced her into it. If you might take a gander at their bluepill log, they had, for a while, classified her as one not to be awakened, yet you forced their hand by abducting (a word I and many others clearly define as the forced movement and holding of someone against their own will) Theresa Morton, making the red pill the only way for her to evade Machine pursuit. She never would have escaped government custody within the Matrix and even if she had attempted to by running every day and every night, can you really call that a better existance than the truth she was already interested in, found in the Real? You would call that a comfortable existence? She would have found only overwrite or death within the Matrix, with overwrite being as good as death.

Most of humanity can find a somewhat comfortable, or, at the very least, satisfying existence in the Real and the very fact that you would even mention Cypherites as a "counterexample" shows that you're grabbing for straws. But I see far more Cypherites than I do Machinists these days anyway. Funny how those tunes changed when they told you to start fighting us. Funny how awakenings suddenly became highest felony. Hilarious how two once distinct factions, one which supported the Machines and worked in close cooperation with Zion for over two years suddenly has become indistinct from the one which has worked to eliminate freedom and promote control from the beginning.

I don't know that I even see Machinists anymore. And I wonder how many of them can see themselves for that man in the mask and the cold eyes staring back at them through the mirror's glass.

Being someone who was actually present for the Sniper incident, her assisting EPN, her capture and her rescue at the hands of EPN, she was far too aware to remain plugged in.  Due to her experiences, her neuro-level was way too high for anyone to expect her to remain oblivious to the world around her.

Because of EPN's interaction with her, despite early decisions not to awaken her, she became far too curious.  Had they left her alone, she might only be a grieving widow at best.  Who knows at this point.  Who are we to issue judgement on what's best for her?  Both sides seem to believe they know what's best but that's an error on both sides.

She made her choice, whether it was coerced or not.  What's done is done.  She'll either accept the truth or reject it and resent you all later.  In either case, that choice is hers to make. 

Being someone who was actually present for the Sniper incident, her assisting EPN, her capture and her rescue at the hands of EPN, she was far too aware to remain plugged in.  Due to her experiences, her neuro-level was way too high for anyone to expect her to remain oblivious to the world around her.

Because of EPN's interaction with her, despite early decisions not to awaken her, she became far too curious.  Had they left her alone, she might only be a grieving widow at best.  Who knows at this point.  Who are we to issue judgement on what's best for her?  Both sides seem to believe they know what's best but that's an error on both sides.

She made her choice, whether it was coerced or not.  What's done is done.  She'll either accept the truth or reject it and resent you all later.  In either case, that choice is hers to make. 

You're right. Time to let this one go. I hope she'll be happy with her decision, I'd like to see where she is in 6 months or so, if she'll still be happy, if she'll be unhappy and wanting to leave, or if she'll be dead. If she isn't dead I'd love to ask her if she thinks she made the right decision.

Careful, dear.  Sometimes a choice can come back to haunt you.