I would to say I agree, all Rare has said is that the event structure is changing and as a result the tags are no longer going to be needed as much. So they've cut their distribution. Which fits in with the removal of liasion officers. Both orgs will still exist as part of the story (though to what degree the continuing story will obviously dictate), events will still happen and those remaining tags will likely still matter. It just won't be as formalised as before.Basically whats happened for everyone in regards to live events is the previous format of one critical event per org (with EPN and Cyph LOs able to jump in and 'claim' Mach and Zion events as their own respectively) and 2 random events per week is changing to 'whenever the story needs one'.
I can, like some, kind of understand the logistical reason for dropping the Cyph and EPN groups (though why the CSRs can't continue to provide factions with tags is beyond me - it's hardly a challenging task, is it?), but we need a storyline reason for the change.
And it is a change. Sure, maybe Veil and the Kid aren't disappearing or being killed off (more's the pity) and the organisations are sticking around, but things will be different. Suddenly EPNs can go to Zion meetings, Cypherites can go to Machinist meetings. Why? Why is that suddenly okay? Why are the extremist groups suddenly working so closely with their parent organisations? Why are the Cypherites taking orders from Gray directly now?
There has to be a reason. But all we can infer from what Rarebit's said so far is that there isn't a reason in the storyline, just the technical reasons he's already given. That's... that's just bad.
Procurator wrote:
The removal of LO's, except for the few who did a really good job, means less LO based drama and having certain players with more power which will be redundant in the new way of things. One of their tasks were to validate and send of requests for CSR's to amend the faction names with appropriate tags (I apologise for teaching how to suck eggs, I know you know how it works). Without a LO to do this it would fall upon regular players contacting to CSR's which would open up a big can of worms considering that the CSR's have, most likely, no idea what is going on other than following the requests of listed individuals. Last thing I want to see is a well known EPN or Cyph faction running around with the opposite number's tag on 'just for lulz' or have every new Tom, **Richard** or Sally who joins, thinks the tags are cool, requests having them only to drop them a few days later etc... Basically through LO's the tag requests had some form of order to them as well as LO verification as to how genuine the request is.
You are quite right, it is a change with respect to LE's, but thats really where it has changed. As stated, LE's were really the only thing, other then the tags, which supported a seperate org. In reality Cyphs/Mechs or Zion/EPN could turn up to each others events if they wanted (save for when meetings were held in Org constructs) and participate, even if they weren't welcome.
I agree that some mention as to why should be stated but that should be stated in the story and not stated beforehand. At the moment they're still seperate for a few days and it's only because Rare decided (quite rightly imo) to let everyone know of the change beforehand that we're not gonna come across the change blindly (which although more realistic, would probably create much more dramah)
As I said, I agree, but just because he hasn't stated that there will be a reason in the storyline, doesn't mean that there won't be one. I have to assume that there will be, perhaps not explained in full straight away, but something that will be explained. Hopefully it won't be a weak explanation either.
Vinia wrote:
Procurator wrote:There has to be a reason. But all we can infer from what Rarebit's said so far is that there isn't a reason in the storyline, just the technical reasons he's already given. That's... that's just bad.As I said, I agree, but just because he hasn't stated that there will be a reason in the storyline, doesn't mean that there won't be one. I have to assume that there will be, perhaps not explained in full straight away, but something that will be explained. Hopefully it won't be a weak explanation either.
This is all I'm hoping for, that's all. A reason or explanation in the storyline.
I was hoping the CSRs would have the common sense to do a modest bit of digging before granting requests, but, having thought about it for a bit, I realised who I'm talking about. After all, why would Star Wars Galaxies players such as ourselves want this 'Cyph' tag thing?
And I know Rarebit hasn't given a storyline reason yet, but the difference between our opinions is based on the belief that he's keeping the storyline reason a secret. You hope he's going to reveal one, whereas I think that because he hasn't said 'yes, there is a storyline reason, but I'm not telling you what it is' he doesn't have one.
Call me pessimistic.
And I know Rarebit hasn't given a storyline reason yet, but the difference between our opinions is based on the belief that he's keeping the storyline reason a secret. You hope he's going to reveal one, whereas I think that because he hasn't said 'yes, there is a storyline reason, but I'm not telling you what it is' he doesn't have one.Call me pessimistic.
I'm willing to give Rarebit more credit and assume he has a valid storyline explanation for this. I hope...
*crosses fingers along with the rest of the Cyphs*
Yes indeed, we can but hope...
...impatiently.
Suddenly EPNs can go to Zion meetings, Cypherites can go to Machinist meetings. Why? This has always been able to happen, org locks dont take tags into account.Why are the extremist groups suddenly working so closely with their parent organisations? As far as I could tell, this has already been happening (EPN and Zion characters have been standing side by side in crits for a while now). Same with the Mechs and Cyphs, bar an obvious distain for eachother (though nowhere has Rare said this will change, thats still very much evident as part of the story and none of the upcoming design changes suggest this will suddenly flip 180 overnight, or at all. The only thing thats 'changing' is how live events are handled, not characters/players emotional stances.)Why are the Cypherites taking orders from Gray directly now?Where has Rare said this is the case or will be happening in the future?
But yeah, ultimately this returns us to the main point of not overreacting and seeing how things go.
Until recently, any Cypherites that attended a Machinist meeting were kicked out, at least on Syntax. Don't know about Machinists in Cypherite meetings, though. I only snuck into one, and I left before the LET character appeared.
There's been co-operation between the sub-orgs and their parents for some time (e.g. Machinists going to Cryptos to talk to the Morpheus sim), but the impending changes suggest working far closer than that.
What I meant by taking orders from Gray was that Cypherites will now officially be taking the Machinist missions. I know Cyph players have been doing those missions before now, but it was never IC: the Machine missions were undeniably taylored only for Machinists, never Cypherites, and I think Zion missions were the same. With Rare dissolving Cypherites and EPN as player orgs, it sounds to me like those players will now be taking their parents orgs' missions IC now. I could be wrong, though. We'll know if the operator stops criticising Cypherites and we stop going to Cryptos for info and having Veil show up to say something stupid.
Oh, I gets ya. Don't see any reason to think thats gonna happen, but who knows. Only the Oracle. Oh and Rarebit.
Everyone who's posted in this asking for more clarification is willing to wait and I do believe trust Rare to do a good job with whatever it is he has planned. As I said earlier everything else in this basket of ideas looks good so why shouldn't this one.
The problem is that those of us who have been members of EPN and CYPH for two years and in some people cases even longer are basicly being shown nothing for their dedication and work they put forward. Put yourselves in our shoes, change the situation that it was Zion and the Machines that were suddenly going underground and the story had simply made you out to of disappeared and you are being told that the orgs are no longer going to be written to cater to the people who choose to be within them but simply run in the back ground. Yeah you have a tag that says your "Zion/Machine" but what good is it if you are not able to support or help that org?
Those of us that stay within EPN and CYPH are basicly left in that position. All we can do is pretend we are apart of the org. Some people in the orgs are fine with this and are all ready I'm sure planning player run events for these orgs. Some of us though are not content with just player event and pay 15 a month so that they can experience the part of the story their tag says they are dedicated to.
Someone said that there was no difference between the orgs after the truce. Incorrect. While every org was focused on the same point the way they went about things was different. Zion took interest in one of its former soldiers suddenly appearing in the Matrix while EPN went into the no fly zone. Zion took a defensive stance in the war while EPN took the offencive. The Machines do everything for the system while the cyphs only for themselves.
GamiSB wrote:
Everyone who's posted in this asking for more clarification is willing to wait and I do believe trust Rare to do a good job with whatever it is he has planned. As I said earlier everything else in this basket of ideas looks good so why shouldn't this one.The problem is that those of us who have been members of EPN and CYPH for two years and in some people cases even longer are basicly being shown nothing for their dedication and work they put forward. Put yourselves in our shoes, change the situation that it was Zion and the Machines that were suddenly going underground and the story had simply made you out to of disappeared and you are being told that the orgs are no longer going to be written to cater to the people who choose to be within them but simply run in the back ground. Yeah you have a tag that says your "Zion/Machine" but what good is it if you are not able to support or help that org?Those of us that stay within EPN and CYPH are basicly left in that position. All we can do is pretend we are apart of the org. Some people in the orgs are fine with this and are all ready I'm sure planning player run events for these orgs. Some of us though are not content with just player event and pay 15 a month so that they can experience the part of the story their tag says they are dedicated to.Someone said that there was no difference between the orgs after the truce. Incorrect. While every org was focused on the same point the way they went about things was different. Zion took interest in one of its former soldiers suddenly appearing in the Matrix while EPN went into the no fly zone. Zion took a defensive stance in the war while EPN took the offencive. The Machines do everything for the system while the cyphs only for themselves.
I agree with you on everything there excepted the highlighted, but politics aside we need something to show forth.
Nicho wrote:
GamiSB wrote:Everyone who's posted in this asking for more clarification is willing to wait and I do believe trust Rare to do a good job with whatever it is he has planned. As I said earlier everything else in this basket of ideas looks good so why shouldn't this one.The problem is that those of us who have been members of EPN and CYPH for two years and in some people cases even longer are basicly being shown nothing for their dedication and work they put forward. Put yourselves in our shoes, change the situation that it was Zion and the Machines that were suddenly going underground and the story had simply made you out to of disappeared and you are being told that the orgs are no longer going to be written to cater to the people who choose to be within them but simply run in the back ground. Yeah you have a tag that says your "Zion/Machine" but what good is it if you are not able to support or help that org?Those of us that stay within EPN and CYPH are basicly left in that position. All we can do is pretend we are apart of the org. Some people in the orgs are fine with this and are all ready I'm sure planning player run events for these orgs. Some of us though are not content with just player event and pay 15 a month so that they can experience the part of the story their tag says they are dedicated to.Someone said that there was no difference between the orgs after the truce. Incorrect. While every org was focused on the same point the way they went about things was different. Zion took interest in one of its former soldiers suddenly appearing in the Matrix while EPN went into the no fly zone. Zion took a defensive stance in the war while EPN took the offencive. The Machines do everything for the system while the cyphs only for themselves.I agree with you on everything there excepted the highlighted, but politics aside we need something to show forth.
Yeah I know, its been awhile since I've examined what the Cyph mindset is and I was only basing that off of Cryptos trade with the machines for access to Zion's Mainframe. I can't claim to be an authority on the Cyph mindset but the point was that it differs from the Machines.
People, I've already given all the reasons I have to give for the changes, including the Cyph/EPN changes. These changes are for development reasons, not for the story, and I'm not going to try to invent a story reason to "explain" them, just as I haven't tried to warp the story into an explanation of no longer having LESIG playing liaison officers--because from a main storyline point of view, these are entirely OOC issues. Don't hold your breath in expectation of some other explanation, because there isn't one. I realize that players, especially Cyph and EPN players, may feel the need to address these things in-character somehow, and I certainly realize that some people aren't going to like the change, but dealing with it comes down to personal decisions, rather than something the storyline is going to try to dictate.
I have said that Cyphs and EPN will be more flexible to handle in the story when they aren't tied down to having to be maintained as player organizations, but that's more of an effect of the change rather than a primary reason for having made it. Most of the changes are geared at least in part toward loosening things up to give the story more freedom--I mean things like dropping the strict daily/weekly event/mission schedules, and bringing back cinematics--but the main reason driving it, as I said at the beginning of this thread--is to reorganize our development efforts so that what we're doing update to update is more effective and more meaningful to more players. Whether or not these changes will do that is of course unknown, and none of us will really start to know for sure until they've been in place for a while.
However, please realize that I have not been just joking with you or trying to string you along: I said right from the start that Cyph and EPN will no longer be supported as player orgs, and I meant it. The reasons why have been stated. You may not agree with them--and it would be very weird if everyone agreed on this, particularly on this internet forum--but nevertheless that's what they are, and how you will deal with them from here on out--or from the start of 11.3, anyway--is up to you.
