r3spon5e wrote:

Garu wrote:

Yes, the machines do kill and commit genocide upon Zion. 

Enough said.

Indeed. Just keep in mind that Zion has blood on its own hands as well. No one is innocent here.

Exactly, noone is innocent. Everyone has blood on their hands.

Garu wrote:

r3spon5e wrote:

Garu wrote:

Yes, the machines do kill and commit genocide upon Zion. 

Enough said.

Indeed. Just keep in mind that Zion has blood on its own hands as well. No one is innocent here.

 

 

Exactly, noone is innocent. Everyone has blood on their hands.

Cept me.
((Fairy liquid cleans all ^.^))

Roukan wrote:

I was once you, and you were once me. We were friends, now we are enemies. We are closer than most humans can ever say. I understand you, Garutachi, but that does not mean you are right. I will protect children, and you will kill them so you are safe.

Your flesh is gone, your humanity with it. Lay down your hostile arms and embrace me as a friend, or a bullet will pierce that skull of yours. A shame to shatter such beauty, but what must be done what must be done.

You say you understand me yet you deny my truth.  If you truly understand me, then you know why I am a machinist.  Funny that you should deny me my humanity just because you don't believe in what I do any more.

You are my friend, Roukan.  But rest assured that if comes down to you or my dream, then you shall perish before me. 

Garu wrote:

Roukan wrote:

I was once you, and you were once me. We were friends, now we are enemies. We are closer than most humans can ever say. I understand you, Garutachi, but that does not mean you are right. I will protect children, and you will kill them so you are safe.

Your flesh is gone, your humanity with it. Lay down your hostile arms and embrace me as a friend, or a bullet will pierce that skull of yours. A shame to shatter such beauty, but what must be done what must be done.

You say you understand me yet you deny my truth.  If you truly understand me, then you know why I am a machinist.  Funny that you should deny me my humanity just because you don't believe in what I do any more.

You are my friend, Roukan.  But rest assured that if comes down to you or my dream, then you shall perish before me. 

Our truths are not truth at all, but we fight like they are. I believe in what you do, I'm just going about it a different way. I would have no quarrel with Niobe or Locke dying, but innocents no.

 I would love to know where people draw the Line between Hostiles and Innocent. I mean for example Some people think that everyone in Zion is a hostile when not all of them are just The Military and Zion Command. I wish I could say All Bluepills innocents when not all of them are, some work for The Machines knowingly and unknowingly in Security and other areas of employment.

And Yes Both Zionites and Machinists are bickering back and forth about This War. Although I see The Machinists doing it more than Zionites, makes me wonder if they are saying we are the guilty one's to make themselves better so as to not feel guilty when in some ways they are. Heck we both have people on both sides that don't feel great about this War, But I'm sure me and my fellow Zionites don't have as many regrets as The Machinists do, otherwise why would they be trying to prove themselves?

Also I have heard from Machinists that it isn't too late to negotiate with them. Why? why would we negotiate with The People who started this War and worse just destroyed Old Zion? We might have negotiated with you possibly, but One must negotiate from a position of strength and also to cease all hostilities. By attacking Old Zion you have lost all credibility with us. Then again you didn't even cease hostilities when Neo negotiated with you and he nearly didn't make it, maybe it is time you approached us, after all you are the one's who are attacking and started this War, you should be theone's who should approach us.

Exactly, noone is innocent. Everyone has blood on their hands.

The free-born that lives in Zion that has ever known anything other than hiding from the Machine; The man or woman that has never lived inside the Matrix, that only wants to live in freedom in the real world is innocent in my eyes. JUST as innocent as the countless bluepills that live their lives, oblivious to the prison their minds are in.

But hey, I guess they're just necessary casualties in an objective, so long as the gears of the Machine continue to turn.

Come on, Ez, all you have to do is surrender and no one else has to get hurt.  What's more important?  Your life and your pride or their safety?

((evil, heartless machinist FTW! MUHAHA))

And Yes Both Zionites and Machinists are bickering back and forth about This War. Although I see The Machinists doing it more than Zionites, makes me wonder if they are saying we are the guilty one's to make themselves better so as to not feel guilty when in some ways they are. Heck we both have people on both sides that don't feel great about this War, But I'm sure me and my fellow Zionites don't have as many regrets as The Machinists do, otherwise why would they be trying to prove themselves?

Also I have heard from Machinists that it isn't too late to negotiate with them. Why? why would we negotiate with The People who started this War and worse just destroyed Old Zion? We might have negotiated with you possibly, but One must negotiate from a position of strength and also to cease all hostilities. By attacking Old Zion you have lost all credibility with us. Then again you didn't even cease hostilities when Neo negotiated with you and he nearly didn't make it, maybe it is time you approached us, after all you are the one's who are attacking and started this War, you should be theone's who should approach us.

Perhaps the reason many Machinists are more vocal about their position on the War is simply because we are the ones who are constantly being questioned about it.  If we respond to the questioning, we're considered guilty of trying to explain things away.  If we didn't respond to the questioning, we'd likely be considered guilty because of our silence.  In the end, we speak because we can.  If we can support our stance and attempt to explain the way we feel, as well as attempting to explain how the Machines themselves may have arrived at the conclusions they've reached, I don't see why we shouldn't.  It's better than spouting rhetoric or baseless accusations.

I won't bother, however, explaining the situation about the war again.. it's been done by so many and done so many times, if it's not clear by now how the majority of Machinists feel about things, then it won't be made clear by me stating it either.

And Yes Both Zionites and Machinists are bickering back and forth about This War. Although I see The Machinists doing it more than Zionites, makes me wonder if they are saying we are the guilty one's to make themselves better so as to not feel guilty when in some ways they are. Heck we both have people on both sides that don't feel great about this War, But I'm sure me and my fellow Zionites don't have as many regrets as The Machinists do, otherwise why would they be trying to prove themselves?

I think most Machinists regret that it's come to this, not that we ourselves have done something wrong.  I regret that Zion command *knowingly* chose a path that would lead back to open warfare and endanger the lives of all its citizens, and I regret that awakenings are no longer permitted by the system.  But the Machinists didn't want this war to start up again; in fact, many of us worked very hard trying to convince the Zionites that the truce should be upheld.

My only personal regret is that I was unable to accomplish this. 

Illyria

Machinists are more vocal because there is literally no credibility left for anyone to associate with them... examined from a purely human point of view (which we are sadly all forced to be) the overwriting of Cryptos, making him the very thing he hated is perhaps the most obscene and violent assault on humanity possible - a literal fate worse than death - glossed over in the story but the resonance of this is in very real terms crippling to any validity in support.

Equally the behaviour of the machines in recent times has also been every bit as knee jerk and emotional as any human - all the reasons that could have been offered to make them credible allies, their logic their efficiency their resourcefulness etc or any suggestion they are somehow more worthy of dominion than any other groupd here have really been wiped out.

Not that this makes any other org any more valid just that the machines had all the most assured arguments and now they have none and only a complete absence of consequence allows us to continue.

Pyraci wrote:

The free-born that lives in Zion that has ever known anything other than hiding from the Machine; The man or woman that has never lived inside the Matrix, that only wants to live in freedom in the real world is innocent in my eyes. JUST as innocent as the countless bluepills that live their lives, oblivious to the prison their minds are in.

But hey, I guess they're just necessary casualties in an objective, so long as the gears of the Machine continue to turn.

Come on, Ez, all you have to do is surrender and no one else has to get hurt.  What's more important?  Your life and your pride or their safety?

 

((evil, heartless machinist FTW! MUHAHA))

 the overwriting of Cryptos, making him the very thing he hated is perhaps the most obscene and violent assault on humanity possible - a literal fate worse than death - glossed over in the story but the resonance of this is in very real terms crippling to any validity in support.

Prior to the overwriting, Cryptos was an even bigger fanatic than Morpheus and the Kid combined -- he hated the Machines so much that he wanted to get back at them by using nuclear weapons in the simulation to kill millions of bluepills.  Thankfully, the man he once was is dead.

Pyraci wrote:

I'll surrender when the Machine is no longer gunning for my people, or when I give up the ghost, whichever comes first. We are their defense and safety. The Machine doesn't care whether we're pod-born or free-born, and if given the chance, they'd rip through the new city just as they did the old one.

But then again, I don't think I've heard much of a machinist comeback on the subject of the free-born, so I'll let that point stand.

The deaths of the freeborn who wanted to live in peace with the Machines are as regrettable as the deaths of any Zionite redpill who also wanted peace.  No Machinist is taking pleasure in the deaths of these innocent people, just as the allies didn't take pleasure in the deaths of civilians during the bombing of Dresden in WW2.  But Zion's leaders made their choice to act in a way they knew the Machines would see as a threat, and as we all know, actions have consequences. 

I wonder what would have happened if Zion had put it to a vote -- to either stay in Zion with the truce in effect (knowing that the sentinels were still there as a deterrent to any anti-truce acts Zion might want to commit), or to build New Zion (knowing this would be seen as a threatening act by the Machines that would cause the truce to fail). 

Perhaps Zion command should step down and let the general population have a bigger voice in the creation of their city's policies.  For all their crowing about freedom of choice, Zion's leadership has been remarkably restrictive when it comes to letting their average citizens participate in decision-making.  Do you think the typical Zionite would have supported Anome's ascension to a position of power?  Or Niobe's waste of Zion's resources in pursuing her vendetta against the Merovingian?  Or the training of the General and his commandos? 

Maybe if they had a bigger voice in their government, or even if their government was a little more open with them about what it was doing, enough people would have expressed their doubts about any (or all) of these plans to make Zion command think twice before making its next ill-advised decision.

Illyria 

Annakonder wrote:

 the overwriting of Cryptos, making him the very thing he hated is perhaps the most obscene and violent assault on humanity possible - a literal fate worse than death - glossed over in the story but the resonance of this is in very real terms crippling to any validity in support.

 

Prior to the overwriting, Cryptos was an even bigger fanatic than Morpheus and the Kid combined -- he hated the Machines so much that he wanted to get back at them by using nuclear weapons in the simulation to kill millions of bluepills.  Thankfully, the man he once was is dead.

 

Pyraci wrote:

I'll surrender when the Machine is no longer gunning for my people, or when I give up the ghost, whichever comes first. We are their defense and safety. The Machine doesn't care whether we're pod-born or free-born, and if given the chance, they'd rip through the new city just as they did the old one.

But then again, I don't think I've heard much of a machinist comeback on the subject of the free-born, so I'll let that point stand.

The deaths of the freeborn who wanted to live in peace with the Machines are as regrettable as the deaths of any Zionite redpill who also wanted peace.  No Machinist is taking pleasure in the deaths of these innocent people, just as the allies didn't take pleasure in the deaths of civilians during the bombing of Dresden in WW2.  But Zion's leaders made their choice to act in a way they knew the Machines would see as a threat, and as we all know, actions have consequences. 

I wonder what would have happened if Zion had put it to a vote -- to either stay in Zion with the truce in effect (knowing that the sentinels were still there as a deterrent to any anti-truce acts Zion might want to commit), or to build New Zion (knowing this would be seen as a threatening act by the Machines that would cause the truce to fail). 

Perhaps Zion command should step down and let the general population have a bigger voice in the creation of their city's policies.  For all their crowing about freedom of choice, Zion's leadership has been remarkably restrictive when it comes to letting their average citizens participate in decision-making.  Do you think the typical Zionite would have supported Anome's ascension to a position of power?  Or Niobe's waste of Zion's resources in pursuing her vendetta against the Merovingian?  Or the training of the General and his commandos? 

Maybe if they had a bigger voice in their government, or even if their government was a little more open with them about what it was doing, enough people would have expressed their doubts about any (or all) of these plans to make Zion command think twice before making its next ill-advised decision.

 

 

Illyria