Get rid of having to manually activate buffs!!

**Shinryu** · 03/15/2006 14:48:07

Persoanally, I see no reason why things can't work they way they do on the live servers.

I also don't really see it being a question of balance. Look at it this way, at level 50 you have 100 memory points. You load one whole tree (if you want) and then load part of second one. EVERY level 50 does this. I'm pretty sure there are no level 50's out there who say "I'm gonna be a Karate Grandmaster, and I'm not gonna load anything but my Karate tree." Some combinations of trees may be overly powerful, yes, but then tweaks can be made to individual trees such as lowering the buffs of cetain level titles or making certain skills less powerful. If several certain class/tree combinations are really that extremely powerful (which probably won't be the case anyway with the new focus on attributes in CR2) then those individual combinations are out of balance, not the entire buffing system.

The manual buff system also hurts the addition of an extra visible hotbar because of having to have instant access to all of those different title buffs. We already lose most of the extra space with the combat hud icons *grumble, grumble* and the rest of it is taken up by title buffs.

Of course, as has been mentioned before numerous times, the idea of having to manually activate stuff makes no sense within the context of the Matrix universe either. Neo didn't sit behind pillars in the lobby scene switching between SMG Specialist, Duelist and Rifle Master buffs, he just switched guns and kept going. And then when he kicked that SWAT at the end, he didn't have to worry about activating his Karate Master buff so the kick would be powerful enough to kill the guy, he just kicked him.

All of that said, if someone still decides that the current live system won't work, why not just make it a primary/secondary system? When loading your abilities you select a primary title and a secondary title out of the ones you have loaded. For me, I generally run with SMG Specialist and Karate Master loaded. I would designate SMG Specialist as my primary title, and Karate Master as my secondary. Then make it a %age of the buff that goes down with each tier. I would receive, say, 100% of the SMG Specialist buffs because it's been designated as my primary, 75% of the Karate Master buffs because it's been designated as my secondary, and 50% of buffs from any other title I may happen to have loaded. No need for players to constantly activate anything all the time and it's a way to balance things, since that seems to be the stumbling block. Combo trees still too powerful? Then mess around with the % numbers.

If this issue is such a heated thing in the office, then stop arguing about it internally and listen to the players. It seems pretty clear what the verdict is out here on this side of the fence.

Message Edited by ShinryuMxO on 03-15-200604:47 PM

Message Edited by ShinryuMxO on 03-15-200604:48 PM

bonobi

keep them in...activating them now that I know that it fixes the uber-builds from happening is well worth the pain of activating them.

**Super_Jenius**

I didn't realize Hybrids were a problem in the existing system. I remember at one point having Karate and KungFu loaded at the same time would give you uber melee dmg, but that was fixed and I assumed the others were too.

Anyway, I don't like having to activate the "title buffs", but that's mostly because I'm not used to it. Right now, I have Aikido Grandmaster in the first slot on my Aikido hotbar. Once I get used to the fact I have to activate it, it'll be just like activating my other regulars (hyper-speed, evade combat, etc.). If I have to choose between the ease of the old system and the flexibility of the new system, I'd have to go with the new system. Flexibility and choice are good, and I like the fact that the new system helps differentiate players. I don't want to take anything away from that.

Regarding your design challenge, maybe you can create a way for the player to prioritize which buffs are auto-activated. I'm sure this would still be challenging, but it could be done post-CR2.0, and it sounds a lot easier than rebalancing everything to go back to passive abilities.

VampTrix

go back to the old style please. manually activating buffs is just a needless annoyance, especially for the spy tree.

Cal

I have to say I like them the way they are, for a Force Multiplier/Trauma Surgeon build I do use both my end-class buffs A LOT for different situations.

If I need to get a lot of healing/sweeps out to the most amount of people, then I activate Trauma Surgeon (+Healing/Heal and Buff Radius), but if I'm in a small-group situation or care about being IS efficient then I switch out to Force Multiplier (+IS Cost Reduction).

Having both activated at the same time would be overpowering in my eyes (huge-efficiency boost AND huge heal/buff radius). It really adds some near-on-the-fly tactical choice to group healing situations (which as they stand now quickly devolve into being a Sweep and occasional Panicked Heal or Force Enhancer Bot).

RockyB

Personally now I've been playing with them for a while I don't have a problem with manually activated title buffs. Like the previous poster said, choosing WHICH to activate when you're multi-classing adds a nice little bit of tactical depth to the game. I don't find it overly hard to click a button whenever I leave a hardline; and tbh it seems like force of habit that other players are moaning about rather than any actual problem. What's the difference between activating this and activating hyperdodge? Nothing, unless you're not used to it, at which point for some reason it becomes an issue.

**cloudwolf** · 03/16/2006 01:33:30

New or old system i dont really mind anymore, just dont get rid of em entirely, that'd suck big time.

I think the main beef i and others have with CR2.0 is the bloody tactics! Have em wsad/arrow bindable god darn it!!!

(or in a seperate UI)

Message Edited by cloudwol on 03-16-200609:33 AM

**Tytanya_MxO**

Thank you for addressing the thread, the more familiar I have become with CR2 the more I appreciate this issue has both positve and negative consequences.

The main issue is with the number of buttons we are having to press to make CR2 function....on another thread someone stated we had become 'Mr Activator' and while that can work; it does erode the concept of the RSI we have come to know. Experimenting with LO and hybrid builds has been one of the more interesting and rewarding aspects of the current system and removing that or at least diminishing the ability we have to apply varied builds is a loss imo.

Moving back to passive buffs would be my greatly favoured approach, retaining maximum familiarity with the current live game - but If there is a way to incorporate the selection of buffs into the tree as per the suggestion by Yiwe (Davemusic) this would appear to offer the advantges of the system you describe but retain the application of the buffs at the same point (the tree stage) as the Live system. Balance and the potential for a closet uber builds I feel is likely to be an issue for some time to come regardless of the approach.

If the buff activations have to stay please can it be designed so that they stay on throughout a session, through hl's and reatined even on jacking out so that when you return the buff is still on unless you change LO. (after a lo change a warning sign should tell you to make sure you activate asap).

Elsewhere I mentioned UI streamlinining and this hopefully contributes to that but a reveiw of all the awakened abilities could also reveal a few abilities that could be reagrded as passive as the only reason to load them seems to be to acitvate them? (Hyperdefence for example)

cryshal

i agree with tat's post. the changes to the loadout/ab system have been by far my biggest complaint. i give credit to the various positive changes where appropriate, so im no lynch mob, not in the least.

passive passive passive. if we supposedly have this stuff downloaded straight into our head why all teh button pushing and switch flipping? not very matrix-ish. no its not a big deal to hit a key to upgrade something. but thats not the point at all and we all know it. the complexity of the UI is getting a bit out of hand.. lets rewind a little and get things under control. all the 'juggling' one must do while on an everyday mission is crazy. especially since zion missions commonly throw at you gunners, MAs, patchers AND hackers in the same mission.. sometimes the same room. thats just too much title upgrade juggling =D

if the purpose of a game is to have fun.. how is this new keyboard-fu required by cr2 supposed to be fun? =D

the combat system itself is a big improvement, the previous one IS quite simple.. even the tutorial says so. i know the new system. its kinda neat. but ill have reservations about playing this game if this stuff with the abs continues. most players are gonna feel 'shorted' no matter what if they have to manually activate what was once passive before. whats worse, we feel nerfed in addition to this cuz unlike live, in cr2 you cant have everything 'activated' or whatever at the same time.

in some cases logic has to take as much priority as personal preference. its not logical to say 'nuh-uh hybrid hacker with op abs is bad!!!11' because if one sacrifices things in other areas to 'fit' it all in like that, thats the way it is. you SHOULD be able to put together a kickass loadout if you pay attention to the details and cobble things together in weird ways. thats what i call strategy. on live im level 47 and my gunner has 3625 health, with clothing, health bonus maxed at +1175, dundundunnnnn. npcs run in fear but jesus a 50 still stomps me like i was a little girl.. haha.

an alternate, which would probly be easy to implement.. is if you have certain abs loaded, prevent the loading of certain other abs if balance is THAT much of an issue around the office. quit nerfing us and just make us pick the one, or the other.. as the case may be. my hacker has nice hp, 1400 dmg logic cannon and ~ %40 damage resist, on live. and i STILL get owned in interlock. alot.

being powerful has become taboo and this business with passive/active abs is merely the latest symptom =D nothing wrong with being powerful, isnt that hte idea? or should neo's abilities not have been passive either? =(

for hells sake pls lose the activated abs. ill give you lots of money, raise my subscription to 100/month or more.. still a fraction of what i spent playing PE. ill wash yer car, do yer dishes..

**Spadz**

Thanks for the input Frog. I always like to hear what's going on back there in Dev-land.

I have a work around for those that are interested just in case the idea of passive buffs doesn't make it to the final CR 2.

I fully support the idea of passive buffs similar to the live system as it is now, however consider this..

/macro KFGM /loadlo KungFuGM; /pause 12; /invoke buff1; pause 22; /invoke buff2; /pause 22; ..... etc..

Basically for those of you that just said "huh? what?"

Create a macro that loads up your Kung Fu Grandmaster loadout and then activates your associated buffs that you want to run with that loadout.

Now.. if we can just get the DEVS to make those pesky named abilities to last like Ty suggested (HLs and all that ..) we would have an effective workaround for the new system.

Discuss.

**Shinryu**

A workaround is all fine and good... but it's still a workaround. It's like saying "Well, the system is broken, but you'll get used to it." Sure, I'll get used to it, but I'd rather have it not broken in the first place.

HCFrog

Oh just a little note, an engineer is trying to get the title buffs to stay on through Hardlines. It's turning out to be a little more squirrelly than we expected.

Avat

ShinryuMxO wrote:
A workaround is all fine and good... but it's still a workaround. It's like saying "Well, the system is broken, but you'll get used to it." Sure, I'll get used to it, but I'd rather have it not broken in the first place.

With all due respect, no, it isn't like saying it's broke. It's not broke at all, just because it's not suitable for 100% doesn't mean it's broke. While there are areas of the current style buff activation that are annoying, the suggestion that is offered is simply just another way to get to the same place. A short-cut if you will.

My main problem is the fact that style buffs don't stay current once a player uses a HL. But that issue is obvioulsy being worked on. Another issue I have but might be tied to a bug is; Upon reconstructing a player must choose a attack style before invoking any Style buffs or a player will be locked in block tactic or roll out tactic, keeping the player from activating anything at all. I do not want the Style buffs to go back to being passive.

I only have two suggestions regarding style buffs.

1) Allow Style buffs to collapse; meaning that if I invoke a Top tier style buff then the subsequent style is automatically activated along with it. i.e. Scattershot/SMG specialist and the SMG attack style, Karate Master/Kara GrandMaster and the Karate attack style or Proxy coder/Proxy master and Coder attack style.

2) Allow all top tier Style buffs/upgrades to be activated in IL,if applicable.

And to those that continuely try to compare our UI(User interface) to what Neo did in the movies, give up. Who's to say what a redpill is thinking when entering a fight. To me the style buffs are just a way of focusing that awakened mind to a specific fighting technique they have uploaded. When activated you'll notice your character animates by displaying actions related to those techniques. That's the intuitive nature of this combat system and I for one love it!

cryshal

shinryu has hit the nail on the head. in the last game i played, 'concessions' were common, both on the part of the devs and the players. something would get changed (holy hell the noise created by one particular event late last year had 90% of both forums flaming the company) and ppl would say hell no, hell no. and nothing would change. then after a while, ppl would start with these 'concession' solutions. workarounds. halfass fixes.

this is not acceptable.

i dont want a little macro-fu frosting to smooth over the cracks, i want the abs passive, the way they were. what neo was thinking while he was fiddling with his gun sounds real deep and everything but lets get back to the issue of gameplay, something i should take to heart also i guess. the majority of posts in this thread clearly say, to anyone whos not a complete friggin skrube, that most of us dont wanna be punching keys so much just to put someone down. this is fair coming from me since i use a nostromo n52 and a thumb-ball trackball to play. i only touch the keyboard to type when speaking. thats it.

its ok to push cr2 back a bit. most ppl would welcome it being postponed anyway. think of all the lazy ppl who havent tried it yet =D faction leaders and crew captains probly still have yet to get person X to try it, etc.. bottom line nothing is ready. passive passive passive.

Ve

cryshal wrote:
if the purpose of a game is to have fun.. how is this new keyboard-fu required by cr2 supposed to be fun? =D

bottom line nothing is ready. passive passive passive.

Passive buffs = Passive gameplay. With the current PASSIVE system you choose LO combination. Line up specials. Interlock. Press 1, 2, 3. Rinse and repeat.

CR2.0 brings variety, logical tactical decision making, adaptability and ACTIVE gameplay. Manual buffing / hybrid tree switching buffing system is at the heart of this. This is what will make CR2.0 'fun'.

A big YES to manual activation of buffs.

The HL thing needs sorting though.