Is it time?

**ShiXinFeng**

Is it time for EPN and CYPH to end? Should the story go back to dealing with just three orgs?

In my opinion, whether this war were to continue or be put to bed in the next subchapter, the EPN and CYPH orgs are not much more than a distraction. At best, they can be blamed by the mainline orgs in the event the war does end quickly ("It was EPN's/CYPH's doing all the bad stuffs!), but that not a strong tether to keep their stories going.

So, as an EPN'er, I am saying that we should be folded back into Zion, and the CYPHS should return to the Machines. If there is room for "terrorist activity" in the future of the story, then let it be perpetrated by LE characters like Veil or the Kid. Let the main orgs really start to fight it out. Or not, depending on their choice.

And I don't it really alters anyone's RP; the factions/players can still hold the same beliefs. But Rarebit could concentrate more on plots and stories for just three orgs, rather than five.

Thoughts?

**Procurator**

I can't speak for EPN, but as far as Cypherites go...

On one hand I think their org should be disbanded. It doesn't have a purpose anymore, whatever its members half-proclaim (that is, they say they have a purpose but don't explain what it is). It's just a murderous, evil offshoot of the Machinists. Recently all the assignments they've been given are things that the Machinists should've done; the numerous operations that the Machine organisation has to perform are shared seemingly at random between the Machinists and the Cypherites. The Cypherites are pointless.

On the other hand, I really don't want the Cypherites joining the Machinists! Imagine what my organisation would look like if it is full of murderous, evil <insert offensive word here>. In all the arguments we've had, we've been able to stand out and say: 'You may think we're evil, but look at the Cypherites. They're the bad guys!' And it's true. But if they join us, our org's credibility goes down the toilet.

Unless, that is, everyone agrees to RP it. In that case, we ignore the game mechanics, and the ex-Cypherite factions don't actually ally themselves with the Machinists. We've still got good and evil, with a clear distinction despite the lack of CYPH tag. That might couse problems with the relationships Machinists have built up with our liaisons, though: at least one of our liaisons hates the Cypherites, and even if the org drops their unique tag their characters won't change. How could we possibly work together?

I know! We let the Cypherite org continue. But we get a public admission by Veil, Cryptos and all their liaisons that they don't actually have a purpose. SMILEY

**Croesis**

Problem is that these 'splinter' orgs, at least with the Cyphs, have a largely different viewpoint to Machinists many of which conflict. You cannot disband an idea. The only thing linking them together is as Proc touched on, game mechanics. If it were possible, mechanic and manpower-wise in creating more missions, Cyphs and EPN would have their own controller missions and tags... Cyphs will always be Cyphs, EPN will always be Terrorists.. and EPN!

**ShiXinFeng**

Heh, so what you guys are saying is the splinter orgs have been separate too long to be reintegrated? That there's no way they can shift their perspectives (maintain their RP) from within the parent orgs?

But nobody really differentiates the CYPH activities from the Machine objectives! It's common knowledge that the CYPH's are doing what the Machines want them to do.

And EPN's activities, even though the splinter org has been held at arms length by Zion, aren't really all that far from what many Zionists want to do now. . .

**Gerik**

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Heh, so what you guys are saying is the splinter orgs have been separate too long to be reintegrated? That there's no way they can shift their perspectives (maintain their RP) from within the parent orgs?
But nobody really differentiates the CYPH activities from the Machine objectives! It's common knowledge that the CYPH's are doing what the Machines want them to do.
And EPN's activities, even though the splinter org has been held at arms length by Zion, aren't really all that far from what many Zionists want to do now. . .

I think what Proc was saying was that he doesn't want to work or be in the same org as SOME of the Cyph factions. You know... like those ones that... yeah, those guys... lol

**Procurator**

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Heh, so what you guys are saying is the splinter orgs have been separate too long to be reintegrated? That there's no way they can shift their perspectives (maintain their RP) from within the parent orgs?

Yup. Before the CYPH tag became available, there were a few hardliners within the Machinist org, RP'ing that they were Cypherites and such. That was manageable: a few rogue elements within the organisation (not to mention hardocre RP'ers, who managed to pretend they weren't even part of the Machine org).

But now we've got a load of Cypherites, and the vast majority of them have a very different viewpoint to the Machinists, now that they've had so long to play out their ideals. Reintegration is impossible unless they suddenly become sensible, moderate Machinists. SMILEY

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

But nobody really differentiates the CYPH activities from the Machine objectives! It's common knowledge that the CYPH's are doing what the Machines want them to do.

What you say is true, and unfortunate. They both follow the Machines (Cypherites will say they follow Veil, but she's being paid), but they behave in very different ways. I think the Machinists do what they're told (within reason - this isn't an argument about Machinists being sheep SMILEY

) in an efficient manner, while Cypherites get the job done but in a very messy way, invariably involving too much bloodshed and pain.

I hope people can differentiate between Machinists and Cypherites, even if they have the same leaders.

**PS10N**

I'm sick and tired of EPN being called "Terrorist" I can not think of a single thing done by anyone in EPN that could even remotely be considered "Terrorist" except by a lone renegade operating outside the sanctions of the EPN sub-Org. On the other hand, the Cypherites are guilty of numerous and heinous acts of terrorism in and out of the Matrix. The whole philosophy started with the cowardly terrorist whose name the sub-Org now bears. So, get this straight: Cypherites are terrorists, EPN is not, never has been. In fact, EPN was started as a counter-terrorism sub-org, with the aim of stopping the Cypherites from continued acts of terrorism. Anyone who disagrees has delusional misconceptions of history.

**Croesis** · 09/28/2007 12:13:37

Each side have their own terms for the other, their own viewpoints. It is personal opinion. You call Cypherites terrorists, I call EPN terrorists. In most cases they are doing what they think is best, Cyphs protecting Blues, EPN trying to free them, it is all perception. Zion calls us Toasters, we call them cave monkeys.
They are just names, which may or may not have a basis in fact, I do not heat up slices of bread, Zionites can be civil. I see EPN using code bombs to locate morpheus as acts of terrorism, you see Cyphs killing Reds and Blues for the protection of the majority of Bluepills as acts of terrorism (as do I, I have no love for the Cypherites and their overzealous actions....)

Anyway it was meant as a friendly jibe, take it as you want, but you don't see me on a rant whenever someone calls Machinists toasters or whatever witty names you can come up with.

**PS10N** · 09/28/2007 12:26:29

EPN never used code bombs. Ever. Not one. It's this kind of delusion that leads to the blatant misrepresentation of Matrix history again and again. The lone terrorist Taecross did, once, after having been removed from the organization, without order, sanction or approval from EPN. The devices used to locate Morpheus were Code Pulse Devices, not bombs. Get your facts straight. Cypherites have planted bombs on ships to kill people in their sleep. They have removed jacks from operatives who were still in the Matrix, the lowest and most cowardly form of murder known to Redpill society. They have sent ships loaded with explosives crashing into the gates of Zion, killing innocent dock workers. Worst of all, they are betrayers of humanity who willingly accept delusion over reality. Because they can't handle reality, they are willing to murder anyone who can face reality and they have no compunctions about betraying people to genocide. EPN are heroes of humanity, willing to stand up for the Truth and fight for the survival of real human lives. Cypherites are cowardly terrorists, unwilling to face any truth, pushing their delusions and psychosis on others, bent on facilitating the wholesale murder of whoever isn't willing to be a duped pawn of the Machines. The Machines broke the Truce the moment they committed the first mind-*CENSORED* by overwriting an individual, and the Cypherites are their tools.

**Gerik** · 09/28/2007 12:29:44

PS10N wrote:

EPN never used code bombs. Ever. Not one. It's this kind of delusion that leads to the blatant misrepresentation of Matrix history again and again. The lone terrorist Taecross did, once, after having been removed from the organization, without order, sanction or approval from EPN. The devices used to locate Morpheus were Code Pulse Devices, not bombs. Get your facts straight. Cypherites have planted bombs on ships to kill people in their sleep. They have removed jacks from operatives who were still in the Matrix, the lowest and most cowardly form of murder known to Redpill society. They have sent ships loaded with explosives crashing into the gates of Zion, killing innocent dock workers. Worst of all, they are betrayers of humanity who willingly accept delusion over reality. Because they can't handle reality, they are willing to murder anyone who can face reality and they have no compunctions about betraying people to genocide. EPN are heroes of humanity, willing to stand up for the Truth and fight for the survival of real human lives. Cypherites are cowardly terrorists, unwilling to face any truth, pushing their delusions and psychosis on others, bent on facilitating the wholesale murder of whoever isn't willing to be a duped pawn of the Machines. The Machines broke the Truce the moment they committed the first mind-*CENSORED* by overwriting an individual, and the Cypherites are their tools.

TaeCross or whatever his name was, wasn't he a liason for EPN on Rec?

**Vaico**

AFGM1 wrote:

PS10N wrote:
EPN never used code bombs. Ever. Not one. It's this kind of delusion that leads to the blatant misrepresentation of Matrix history again and again. The lone terrorist Taecross did, once, after having been removed from the organization, without order, sanction or approval from EPN. The devices used to locate Morpheus were Code Pulse Devices, not bombs. Get your facts straight. Cypherites have planted bombs on ships to kill people in their sleep. They have removed jacks from operatives who were still in the Matrix, the lowest and most cowardly form of murder known to Redpill society. They have sent ships loaded with explosives crashing into the gates of Zion, killing innocent dock workers. Worst of all, they are betrayers of humanity who willingly accept delusion over reality. Because they can't handle reality, they are willing to murder anyone who can face reality and they have no compunctions about betraying people to genocide. EPN are heroes of humanity, willing to stand up for the Truth and fight for the survival of real human lives. Cypherites are cowardly terrorists, unwilling to face any truth, pushing their delusions and psychosis on others, bent on facilitating the wholesale murder of whoever isn't willing to be a duped pawn of the Machines. The Machines broke the Truce the moment they committed the first mind-*CENSORED* by overwriting an individual, and the Cypherites are their tools.
TaeCross or whatever his name was, wasn't he a liason for EPN on Rec?

Yes, till he was fired. His code bombs came after.

**Croesis**

PS10N wrote:

EPN never used code bombs. Ever. Not one. It's this kind of delusion that leads to the blatant misrepresentation of Matrix history again and again. The lone terrorist Taecross did, once, after having been removed from the organization, without order, sanction or approval from EPN. The devices used to locate Morpheus were Code Pulse Devices, not bombs. Get your facts straight. Cypherites have planted bombs on ships to kill people in their sleep. They have removed jacks from operatives who were still in the Matrix, the lowest and most cowardly form of murder known to Redpill society. They have sent ships loaded with explosives crashing into the gates of Zion, killing innocent dock workers. Worst of all, they are betrayers of humanity who willingly accept delusion over reality. Because they can't handle reality, they are willing to murder anyone who can face reality and they have no compunctions about betraying people to genocide. EPN are heroes of humanity, willing to stand up for the Truth and fight for the survival of real human lives. Cypherites are cowardly terrorists, unwilling to face any truth, pushing their delusions and psychosis on others, bent on facilitating the wholesale murder of whoever isn't willing to be a duped pawn of the Machines. The Machines broke the Truce the moment they committed the first mind-*CENSORED* by overwriting an individual, and the Cypherites are their tools.

I already mentioned that I had no care for Cypherites, so trying to convince me of their blatant acts of terrorism isn't going to change my mind and my perspective. I see EPN, (Ok so I got the term wrong, pulse devices rather than bombs, but they are hacker tools ie tools used to hack elements of the simulation and could cause damage to bluepills) as the bad guys here, willing to try to free a race and by doing so commit genocide of another intelligent race. Zion disregarded the truce ever since they started plans for New Zion, straight after Neo's death, long before the Machines overwrote anyone permanently.

Facts in this are irrelevant anyway, it is my perception, I am allowed my own thoughts and I spoke them allowed. We can go back and forth reminding ourselves of each sides good and bad points but it will not change our beliefs.

**Procurator**

PS10N wrote:

EPN never used code bombs. Ever. Not one. It's this kind of delusion that leads to the blatant misrepresentation of Matrix history again and again. The lone terrorist Taecross did, once, after having been removed from the organization, without order, sanction or approval from EPN. The devices used to locate Morpheus were Code Pulse Devices, not bombs. Get your facts straight. Cypherites have planted bombs on ships to kill people in their sleep. They have removed jacks from operatives who were still in the Matrix, the lowest and most cowardly form of murder known to Redpill society. They have sent ships loaded with explosives crashing into the gates of Zion, killing innocent dock workers. Worst of all, they are betrayers of humanity who willingly accept delusion over reality. Because they can't handle reality, they are willing to murder anyone who can face reality and they have no compunctions about betraying people to genocide. EPN are heroes of humanity, willing to stand up for the Truth and fight for the survival of real human lives. Cypherites are cowardly terrorists, unwilling to face any truth, pushing their delusions and psychosis on others, bent on facilitating the wholesale murder of whoever isn't willing to be a duped pawn of the Machines. The Machines broke the Truce the moment they committed the first mind-*CENSORED* by overwriting an individual, and the Cypherites are their tools.

...

Isn't this getting a little off-topic? This thread is OOC, and the question is whether or not the sub-orgs should be disbanded. You don't need to list the Cypherites' many crimes, and you certainly don't need to state your opinions about EPN being champions of humanity (though I thank you for making me laugh).

Cypherites are terrorists because they operated outside the Truce. EPN are terrorists for the same reason. Whether they used code bombs or not is irrelevant.

**Croesis** · 09/28/2007 12:49:24

Hmm... I apologise Shi+Xin+Feng, I didn't mean for your thread and legitimate question to be carried off topic...
....and thanks for saying in one sentence that I tried to say in two posts Proc. Sometimes I have trouble with being articulate with words, as you can see I tend to over compensate when trying to get my viewpoint across!

**Garu**

It's says a lot when even Procurator tells you to chill when it comes to hating on Cyphs! LOL

In all seriousness though, I don't care much for Cypherites for the same reasons that many other machinists don't. However, in all their uselessness, everyone deserves the right to function within a group of like-minded souls. Who are we to judge how unnecessary they are when they themselves firmly believe they have purpose and reason to band together.

Cypherites have proven to be useful from time to time. While I don't particularly care for their methods or hobbies, they have proven to be of some benefit to the Machines. Otherwise, why would they keep them around? In the end, there is a reason the Cypherites are similar to Machinists and EPN with Zion. It is because they are splinter groups that its natural that they have those similarities but its in how they execute those ideas that separates them greatly.

EPN and Cypherites are the radicals and their acts reflect it. They have a reason to be and it's not within our rights to tell them different.