Neoteny wrote:
I mean, prior to that incident, there were (and still are) Machine missions where you are asked to escort a Zionite to an agent so that he might be reinserted.
A thought that had crossed my mind was that Gray was just saying that they were being reinserted. When in reality they were being "knocked-off".
EDIT- That actually makes no sense. Surely he would just tell you to kill them? Or tell you he was going to kill them?
You have to be careful how you interpret the exact things he says in that mission. I think that's already been done (back when the whole "there is no such procedure" thing happened during Red Sky), but at any rate it should probably be handled in a thread of its own.
Rarebit wrote:
Sphairo wrote:Personally I always liked the fact that there was a certain air of mystery surrounding reinsertion, is it faesible, is it not, who does the procedure if it did happen (Perhaps the Cyphs bargain a deal with the Machines) perhaps the machines take the "reinserter" to a location and kill them, or readjust there memory? Every question with another question makes it all the more exciting. It also provided a big platform for Zion/Cyph/Mach debate.I'm all for mysteries (as eval pointed out, Gray's wording to Cryptos about reinsertion was not quite what some people took it out to be--EDIT: which is to say, it leaves room for interpretation), but a mystery has to hold up against scrutiny, or else it's no good. The previous Cypherite/reinsertion mystery would fall apart about here:Cypherite: So, Cryptos, how are we actually gonna reinsert [Cypherite player x], anyway?Cryptos: >_><_</ninjavanish
Sphairo wrote:
Personally I always liked the fact that there was a certain air of mystery surrounding reinsertion, is it faesible, is it not, who does the procedure if it did happen (Perhaps the Cyphs bargain a deal with the Machines) perhaps the machines take the "reinserter" to a location and kill them, or readjust there memory? Every question with another question makes it all the more exciting. It also provided a big platform for Zion/Cyph/Mach debate.
I'm all for mysteries (as eval pointed out, Gray's wording to Cryptos about reinsertion was not quite what some people took it out to be--EDIT: which is to say, it leaves room for interpretation), but a mystery has to hold up against scrutiny, or else it's no good. The previous Cypherite/reinsertion mystery would fall apart about here:
Cypherite: So, Cryptos, how are we actually gonna reinsert [Cypherite player x], anyway?
Cryptos: >_>
<_<
/ninjavanish
I always saw Cryptos as a puppet to the machine and helped carry out there dirty biddings, whatever that entails :P
That's no longer the case, but it illustrates the difficulties we've had trying to support activities and outlooks for Cypherites (and EPN) that would actually give them an independent direction in-game, at least one that could be seen by anyone other than those who've put in great effort to follow the Cypherite story very closely. We've been able to do some of that (getting all the "lowbie" crew members together for the EPN expedition, making special anti-override consumables given out by Cryptos at an event), but only very sporadically, and even that little bit has been enormously inefficient in terms of the amount of development effort it consumes.
GamiSB wrote: Cypher : I don't want to remember nothing. Nothing. You understand? And I wanna be rich..you know, someone important. Like an actor. Agent Smith : Whatever you want... Mr Reagan... Thats where the lie is. Smith tells Cypher he will get whatever he wants and isn't planing on lifting a finger towards that. Not really. It insinuates that he'll get what he wants, true, however that sentance trails off. He doesn't actually confirm nor deny outright that Cypher will get what he wants considering that Agents are precise with their wording.
GamiSB wrote:
Cypher : I don't want to remember nothing. Nothing. You understand? And I wanna be rich..you know, someone important. Like an actor. Agent Smith : Whatever you want... Mr Reagan... Thats where the lie is. Smith tells Cypher he will get whatever he wants and isn't planing on lifting a finger towards that.
Agent Smith : Whatever you want... Mr Reagan...
Thats where the lie is. Smith tells Cypher he will get whatever he wants and isn't planing on lifting a finger towards that.
Not really. It insinuates that he'll get what he wants, true, however that sentance trails off. He doesn't actually confirm nor deny outright that Cypher will get what he wants considering that Agents are precise with their wording.
Vinia wrote:
That quote makes it trail off. If you watch the scean Smith states "Whatever you want" in an upbeat way and even smiles a bit while saying. In fact the quote from the Augest 12, 1998 shows no signs of trailing but is simply
"Whatever you want, Mr. Reagan."
Comma, period. No trailing. He outright states that Cypher will get whatever he wants.
A smile and upbeat tone does not represent an agreement, they are actions provided to enhance the manipulation. There is no confirmatory word in that phrase at all. In order for it to become an agreement there would have to word or phrase added such as "Whatever you want, you will get" ("You will get" being a confirmatory phrase) but there wasn't a confirmatory word or phrase added to it. This is also shown by the fact that the phrase's meaning is completely different if you add the words "is unacceptable". On it's own the phrase holds no confirmation nor denial of the terms set out, which is why I believe Smith chose that phrase.
Just because Cypher believes that Smith is agreeing to the terms amicably, doesn't mean that he actually is.
This thread has gone way off track.
I think we've all been provided with enough evidence that machines are capable of, and are quite efficient at lying and making thinks up, ages ago. No point to deny, no point to provide even more proof.
Having this in mind gives you a healthy platform for thoughts on the mystery around reinsertion, wich imo should always stay that. Having the machines being able to, but not actually willing to do stuff is a whole lot better than plainly cutting it off and saying "it's impossible".
A smile and upbeat tone does not represent an agreement and there is no confirmatory word in that phrase at all. In order for it to become an agreement there would have to word or phrase added such as "Whatever you want, you will get" but there wasn't a word or phrase added to it plus you can add the words "is unacceptable" and the meaning is completely the opposite.Just because Cypher believes that Smith is agreeing to the terms amicably, doesn't mean that he actually is.
A smile and upbeat tone does not represent an agreement and there is no confirmatory word in that phrase at all. In order for it to become an agreement there would have to word or phrase added such as "Whatever you want, you will get" but there wasn't a word or phrase added to it plus you can add the words "is unacceptable" and the meaning is completely the opposite.
But he did say just that only it into a shortened "efficient" manor. You don't need to add "you will get" to the end, that is to be assumed unless stated otherwise. Also notice the comma, not a trail off but a comma. Its a pause meaning he is done with that thought. That this is all there is to this part of the statement and then he closes by stating who its addressed to.
There is not hidden meaning here and it still baffles me as to why people insist on inserting hidden meanings into what Machine affiliated characters say and yet everything a Zion character says is cut and dry.
Exactly, it's assumed, not confirmed. In any case, as I said before a Machine's, or indeed a program's ability to lie or at least deceive and manipulate puts them on fairly equal footing to Humankind who have been doing it for a long time.
In fact I can say that it baffles me as to why an apparent Machine lie is more extraordinary then a Human lie, considering that they are an Intelligent race who, according to the Oracle (I believe), are quick at learning.
Like wise but its typically a big deal only for the simple fact that several people can't get it past their own assumptions and insist on it being a false claim.
Also you skipped the point that the reason it's not stated is not because we can't confirm that it is there (the obvious intended interpretation was for it to be there) but because of the manor in which Machine's carry their words, not to hide anything but to make it as short sweet and efficient as possible.
GreyMountain wrote:
Neoteny wrote:I mean, prior to that incident, there were (and still are) Machine missions where you are asked to escort a Zionite to an agent so that he might be reinserted.A thought that had crossed my mind was that Gray was just saying that they were being reinserted. When in reality they were being "knocked-off". EDIT- That actually makes no sense. Surely he would just tell you to kill them? Or tell you he was going to kill them?
Open secret - this is, in fact, the way I re-wrote Kellner's story after the reinsertion-not-existing incident. As for why Kellner still exists, flimsy rationale: he had been "reinserted" before they publicly declared it didn't happen, so they must have not wanted to tell the cypherites that it didn't happen yet, ergo, to keep up appearances, they made a bluepill Kellner program. :)
I definitly liked how this thread turned out. Once again Rarebit, you get the badge of awesomeness for the way things were shaped up. Now I understand why and how things were made to be what they are now. Thanks a lot and I've grown to have much more respect for your judgment of the story and it's future.
Nicho wrote:
I agree with Nicho
There's only one that I know of, which is one of the Machine seduction missions. It was altered when most of the introduction/seduction/graduation missions were changed when chapter 8.1 started. I still have to get around to adding the changes to the mission logs on my site. But the mission in question has a new piece of dialogue from the operator that shows up after you've delivered the guy who wants to go back to the pods. He says "Cherson has reached the programs. He thinks he's going to be re-inserted into the pods...but I think the Machines may have different ideas about that".
Do we know exactly what the Machines do with people who wish to be reinserted? Most people assume they're killed, and that's certainly possible. For all we know they're placed in a private construct and experimented on.
