CR2.0 must not increase the effectiveness of the Zerg!

Regulus

How to stand for few mins against a zerg in the current combat system.

-You have to plan on the zerg having all trees, so you have to have high CT for IL, LOTS of DR, and definetly Max VD, and of course since hacks have a 50% chance of landing, you ARE going to get hit, so you'll need sweeps.

Therefore, you can load FM UGM or doctor to have 300%+ HP regen, so if you're multi locked you'll heal just about as much HP as your gettin hit, you can CT buff yourself and wear DR clothes and a TB4 so no rifleman can hit you, and of course have max VD plus sweeps going all the time.

It's not so easy, though, taking 10v1, but if you do it right you can last a few mins or more by yourself, a lot longer if you have a buddy healing and buffing you.

There's always one flaw though, the massive multi lock, where you cant use abilities or roll out, basically you're stuck and the zerg can wait til your sweeps wear off then hack you to death.

HCFrog wrote:
Can I ask what tactics made you successful against the zerg in the old combat system?

I played as a Merv on Live, on a non-hostile server, but I was in a decent amount of PvP. When we were outnumbered, it would be suicide to just run into a situation where twice your number were directly attacking you, unless you knew they were all idiots. And typically, there were some good players there; enough that we couldn't just run at them and expect to win.

So instead, we would lure enemies out away from the crowd until the numbers were more even. The best was pulling one person away, destroying them, and getting out before reinforcements could arrive. Or using the dead body as bait for their friends... ah, good times.

I also would go in as an MA with max VD, basically as a tank, and hold people in IL so friendly hackers, knife throwers and snipers could nail them, but that was a fairly suicidal tactic and was more fun than successful.

I'd be interested to hear what kind of tactics people used against greater numbers before. In my experience PvP had a lot to do with numbers already and it was by changing the odds that you beat the bigger force, but I know there are players with way more experience at it than me.

Jiinx

HCFrog wrote:

I'd be interested to hear what kind of tactics people used against greater numbers before. In my experience PvP had a lot to do with numbers already and it was by changing the odds that you beat the bigger force, but I know there are players with way more experience at it than me.

Turn QA hostile and you'll find out very quickly SMILEY

Ingus

HCFrog wrote:
Can I ask what tactics made you successful against the zerg in the old combat system?

I played as a Merv on Live, on a non-hostile server, but I was in a decent amount of PvP. When we were outnumbered, it would be suicide to just run into a situation where twice your number were directly attacking you, unless you knew they were all idiots. And typically, there were some good players there; enough that we couldn't just run at them and expect to win.

So instead, we would lure enemies out away from the crowd until the numbers were more even. The best was pulling one person away, destroying them, and getting out before reinforcements could arrive. Or using the dead body as bait for their friends... ah, good times.

I also would go in as an MA with max VD, basically as a tank, and hold people in IL so friendly hackers, knife throwers and snipers could nail them, but that was a fairly suicidal tactic and was more fun than successful.

I'd be interested to hear what kind of tactics people used against greater numbers before. In my experience PvP had a lot to do with numbers already and it was by changing the odds that you beat the bigger force, but I know there are players with way more experience at it than me.

Well you're on the right track with luring them away from crowds but not crowds in general but hardlines.

On vector from experiences... zergs are a greater threat in familiar territory such as Mara Central, Mara Northwest, Apollyon northwest, and Midian East... the typical richland areas.

but when you bring them downtown in foreign territory they aren't as effective.... or not effective against a force with decent numbers on a ... believe it or not... flat surface.... no bridges or buildings to hack down from just a flat surfaced battle field.

HCFrog, pvping on a nonhostile server won't answer your question... you need to experience a hostile server where all bets are off.

as for more tactics well these tactics occur not due to the opposition but the current state of the game.

players in zion get bored of zergging so they turn merv or machine.

SMILEY

**xBLINDSIDEx**

The benefits of the current system, as far as battling the zerg goes, and actually putting up a good fight... At least as an MA, you can load up full VD... as well as load up some good DR (with squad shirt and the gi), so all your bases are covered fairly well.. the problem with the new system (and i've said this in other posts) is the fact, you're not going to be able to have the greatest defense against all the trees because you have to spread your points across 4 attributes to get a fair (not good) defense against everything... I think one thing that could help this, would be to move thrown defense to another attribute, instead of reason.... for the ones of us that are die hard MAs or gunman, the only benefit of reason, is thrown defense... and the problem you can either have mediocore defense against everything, or good defense against 2 things .. for example for someone that wanted to use MA for their primary tree... could go 30 belief, 30 focus... and would have great defense against hackers and other MAs.. or you could spread the points out.. and have so so defense against everything... So, I think either moving thrown defense over into another attribute, or even making the hyper abilities passive, could really benefit making a good loadout to battle the zerg.. just my opinion.

ScareCrow · 03/10/2006 14:35:49

xBLINDSIDEx wrote:
The benefits of the current system, as far as battling the zerg goes, and actually putting up a good fight... At least as an MA, you can load up full VD... as well as load up some good DR (with squad shirt and the gi), so all your bases are covered fairly well.. the problem with the new system (and i've said this in other posts) is the fact, you're not going to be able to have the greatest defense against all the trees because you have to spread your points across 4 attributes to get a fair (not good) defense against everything... I think one thing that could help this, would be to move thrown defense to another attribute, instead of reason.... for the ones of us that are die hard MAs or gunman, the only benefit of reason, is thrown defense... and the problem you can either have mediocore defense against everything, or good defense against 2 things .. for example for someone that wanted to use MA for their primary tree... could go 30 belief, 30 focus... and would have great defense against hackers and other MAs.. or you could spread the points out.. and have so so defense against everything... So, I think either moving thrown defense over into another attribute, or even making the hyper abilities passive, could really benefit making a good loadout to battle the zerg.. just my opinion.

Isn't the entire left half of the new awakened tree full of abillities to boost defenses from all the different types of attacks? Not being a smart a** or anything, but the last time I looked I thought I saw that. Because I remeber thinking that was a really good idea, because whatever weakness you have from your clothes/abillities can be made up with just a few memory points from the awakened tree.

Message Edited by ScareCrow on 03-10-200602:35 PM

**xBLINDSIDEx**

ScareCrow wrote:

xBLINDSIDEx wrote:
The benefits of the current system, as far as battling the zerg goes, and actually putting up a good fight... At least as an MA, you can load up full VD... as well as load up some good DR (with squad shirt and the gi), so all your bases are covered fairly well.. the problem with the new system (and i've said this in other posts) is the fact, you're not going to be able to have the greatest defense against all the trees because you have to spread your points across 4 attributes to get a fair (not good) defense against everything... I think one thing that could help this, would be to move thrown defense to another attribute, instead of reason.... for the ones of us that are die hard MAs or gunman, the only benefit of reason, is thrown defense... and the problem you can either have mediocore defense against everything, or good defense against 2 things .. for example for someone that wanted to use MA for their primary tree... could go 30 belief, 30 focus... and would have great defense against hackers and other MAs.. or you could spread the points out.. and have so so defense against everything... So, I think either moving thrown defense over into another attribute, or even making the hyper abilities passive, could really benefit making a good loadout to battle the zerg.. just my opinion.

Isn't the entire left half of the new awakened tree full of abillities to boost defenses from all the different types of attacks? Not being a smart a** or anything, but the last time I looked I thought I saw that. Because I remeber thinking that was a really good idea, because whatever weakness you have from your clothes/abillities can be made up with just a few memory points from the awakened tree.
Message Edited by ScareCrow on 03-10-200602:35 PM

Yes, they are there.. and you're right that's what they do... I was talking about the benefits of tactics in the live server.. my point being with good DR, and VD.. you are protected against all ranged attacks, viral and melee (if you're an MA) .... but with CR2.0 if you're in interlock with an MA, and have a rifleman, an mkt, and a hacker on the outside... those little awakened abilities you talked about, aren't going to do much, since you can only have one active at a time, along with hyper deflect... so whatever ability you picked, doesn't matter. you're still dying... because you can't have good defense against all of the other trees, like you can on the current system, that was the point I was making...

I was just answering Frogs request "Can I ask what tactics made you successful against the zerg in the old combat system?" I was simply making a suggestion on how to make the new system, a little more similar to the old system, a lot of people have never logged on, and day one for them, is going to be like day one of QA for a lot of people, they look at it, try it for a few minutes, don't like it, and leave never to come back.. Not everybody is a fan of this idea, and I think the idea of keeping somethings similar to how they are now, as far as tactics go, wouldn't be a bad idea, because the community as a whole isn't big on this change.

**darkhaze**

realistically the problem isnt with the system at all. i personally like cr2..or at least most of it. the real issue is with org imbalance. heres the problem

a new player enters mega city.

he is already a zion with zion rep and only zion crits to do

at the hardline is 3 level 50's. 1 zionite, 1 machine and 1 mero

the new player looks and sees that the zion is blue..but the mero and machine are red and he can target them..they must be bad

the mero wants to mission but cant because the new player is hostile..so the mero sends a recruitment invite

the new player just started and dosent want to make that decision yet..so he declines

the machine tries the same thing

again the new player isnt ready to choose an org so he declines

the zion..because the new player isnt hostile to him..sends a mission invite

the new player wants nothing more than to do some missions and get some levels..so he agrees

during the course of powerleveling the new player and the zion become friends. after a couple of levels and many questions answered the zion sends a recruitment invite and the new player accepts

47 levels later the new player shoots me along with 15 of his friends and i cry like a baby

the end

PLEASE GIVE PLAYERS THE OPTION OF DOIN MERO, MACHINE, AND ZION MISSIONS FROM THE START. MAKE THE NEW PLAYER NON HOSTILE TO ALL ORGS SO THAT WE ALL HAVE AN EQUAL OPPURTUNITY OF RECRUITING

HCFrog

darkhaze wrote:

47 levels later the new player shoots me along with 15 of his friends and i cry like a baby
the end

darkhaze wrote:
PLEASE GIVE PLAYERS THE OPTION OF DOIN MERO, MACHINE, AND ZION MISSIONS FROM THE START. MAKE THE NEW PLAYER NON HOSTILE TO ALL ORGS SO THAT WE ALL HAVE AN EQUAL OPPURTUNITY OF RECRUITING

This is a really really great idea. I have no idea how hard it would be to implement, as it would be a big structural change to PvP, but I wanted to say that this is a fantastic idea from a game design standpoint IMO.

Anyhow, here are my thoughts on the zerg: I really don't want to balance the combat system to account for this. For one thing, it's potentially changing a very central system to account for specific circumstances. Also, I could see it backfiring... like the idea of making it harder to attack into an already existing Interlock battle: if you make the penalty big enough to really make a difference, it would also make it harder for, say, two Machines to sneak into an area, focus on one person, take them out and escape quickly.

I would much rather have a system that works and is balanced for even teams, and then put other things into place to encourage some Org balance. The Org imbalance isn't lost on the dev team.

R3M0 · 03/29/2006 15:48:47

Imo there is no answer to a zerg and in pvp if you wanna win against many opponents its all about teamwork, no one is neo, even if this means getting your mate to teleport you then rolling out of combat and clicking "yes" and whoosh your gone, for buffs and a heal to come back with better tactcis. There is no "I" in team.

Message Edited by nanofiggisremo on 03-29-200603:48 PM

**darkhaze**

there is no T in ORG IMBALANCE lol. thats the point. how can you get your friends to help you when the enemy just has more friends.

i suggest this..either make the meet niobe, agent grey, and flood missions the first 3 crits..wich could make the story kinds start off sucky..or make a new player non hostile and non recruitable to all orgs until the meet (those guys) missions are complete. basically..there has to be a way to not give the impression that meros and machines are the enemy from the bat. the player should have to come to a conclusion based on how they feel the matrix should be run by them selves. now i know this isnt really in complete line with the matrix films. but its a game. and the game has to run smoothly.

Ingus · 03/29/2006 19:11:21

Time spent on the test server it was pretty clear the devs kept a watchful eye on the activity at the mara c hardline. Now try something new.

Vector org imbalance

1. Make a lvl 50 character exactly like ours with no god mod buffs etc... and put a team of devs together on a pvp team with some mervs or machines and pvp at mara for about an hour so you can face the trials of being zerged ... die reconstruct etc... with no noneflagged carebear patchers rezzing your bodies.

this will give devs the change to get first hand experience. It's time to cater to Vector =)

2. Its year 2 of MXO the story should have advanced to show that all orgs are recruiting instead of mervs/machines recruiting from Zion. that way it gives everyone a chance just like darkhaze stated in his post.

this is a serious hostile server issues that has yet to be worked on by the devs.

CR2 is good but it has made the zion zerg on vector stronger than before since their lowbie cheerleaders can now make matters worst.

Message Edited by Inguss on 03-29-200607:11 PM

**Montoia**

I think a quick fix for our pesky zerg problem is to implement a harsher death penalty.

15% downgrade to abilities for 5 minutes... OOoooOooo...

Instead, make it something like if you have to reconstruct, you are 50% downgraded, and your movement speed is slowed down 15%, on top of a half-full buffer.

If you get a RSI Revitalize or whatever that magic spell is, then you still get the downgrades, but no movement speed nerf.

Thoughts?

**darkhaze** · 03/30/2006 05:16:42

50%...ewwww..no way. that would actually help the zerg. were gonna die no matter what but if the few meros and machines have to wait 5 min to do anything after death we'll never make a dent. besides a quick fix isnt what we need. we need something for the long term imo.

Message Edited by darkhaze on 03-30-200605:16 AM

**Bethlehem** · 03/30/2006 10:20:19

death effect increases would only benefit the zion and hurt the opposing orgs more (as DH said above)

get rid of death effect all together: meh, doesn't change anything.

vector is facing a serious crisis though. all the players that seem to be leaving are machine and meros because they are facing the negative effects of the free fire/change in buffing system. they were able to withstand a 3v1 in a lot of cases in the last system (which is bogus, and the new system is better balance wise) but now I can't see how the pvp thing will be much fun at all for them.

Inguss encourages more zionites to switch orgs, and I hope they do. My faction will not, however, so I'm no help there. PvP will be obviously nonexistant if there are no enemies, so something must be done. And once again i have no idea what that should be. i know a lot of ppl are really tempted to move if a server transfer were offered, and that bumms me out too... i don't want to go to a non hostile server, but i also don't want to stay on a hostile server with no hostilities.

/nohelp

Message Edited by Bethlahem on 03-30-200611:20 AM

cryshal

...right then, along comes cryshal with your scheduled reality check =D

i recall shooting at ppl, before cr2, who were in interlock. cue 2001 theme music.

the reason it has become MUCH worse has nothing to do with interlock. after all, the difference between interlock and multilock is nil, zero, moot. now that theres no more multilock, and yet now we got freefire melee attacks.. whats the difference? absolutely none.

the reason why ppl standing around loaded up to their eyes with ballistic buffs are causing so much of a problem is cuz theyre exactly the same they always were, but the game isnt. they were always standing there, shooting you about 4-6 secs AFTER you pull someone into interlock.. but in cr2 guns hit ppl SO much more often now. its not interlock, or the zerg, or the balance of population between the orgs (as much), its the fact that youre getting hit sometimes 3 times in one second, by guns now.

devs, turn down the gunfire pls =D

i do missions on easy, just to test.. and i still get pelted for noob dmg which adds up so much faster than i thought it would. an average of 80 dmg per sec means i die in about 32 secs or the time it takes me, with hacker (no hacker comments pls), to kill 3-4 npcs if all goes well.

see the pattern here? this is just how its been going down at mara a la pvp lately. its not the zerg, its the bullets. they hit you in the back of the head far more often now. the solution is to tone down the ranged stuff. its just trouble in several different ways, as voiced by many ppl ingame, to be getting hit so much now. item decay etc. or you could make ppl in interlock unable to be hit by anyone outside. that would be fine with me. i try to avoid interlock about 2/3rds of the time but when im there, i want it to be me vs them and no bs about it. however id also have to consider this heavy handed.. far easier im sure to just throttle back on how much we get hit by ballistic attacks.