Hacker is the Uber class once again

**Sneaker**

Mave wrote:

Oh and Sneaker...you forgot on update on that thread. "Find Weakness FINALLY works like it's sister abilities."

I also excluded the Concealment bug.

Nothing personal, just didn't include everything for simplicity sake.

**Pylat**

Trikraft wrote:

Hacker:
1.) Increase the passive viral defense in the Martial Arts tree.
2.) Give martial arts an upgrade to their interlock accuracy vs. hackers. (In the form of an initiative buff, since hackers have to roll specials in interlock or use self defense.)
3.) If we're going to allow more buffs for the anti-class, its only fair to give back more debuffs in interlock, that way they have at least a small chance if they get lucky.

Seriously, I lol'd. MA's can max out their viral defense quite easily, its called Aikido GM. Hell, I used Karate GM and had a VD of +186. If a MA can't get their viral defense above 180, then they are doing very very very VERY wrong. I'm sure MA's would much prefer defense bonuses vs something else. MA's already have the highest acc and hackers already take a giant IL accuracy penalty. The OP used MKT so he was naturally getting smashed by hackers, thats what hackers do.

To be honest I think the entire thread is rather pointless as hacker is not uber anymore.

Renzouken

Arcanoloth wrote:

Trikraft wrote:
Hacker:
1.) Increase the passive viral defense in the Martial Arts tree.
2.) Give martial arts an upgrade to their interlock accuracy vs. hackers. (In the form of an initiative buff, since hackers have to roll specials in interlock or use self defense.)
3.) If we're going to allow more buffs for the anti-class, its only fair to give back more debuffs in interlock, that way they have at least a small chance if they get lucky.

Seriously, I lol'd. MA's can max out their viral defense quite easily, its called Aikido GM. Hell, I used Karate GM and had a VD of +186. If a MA can't get their viral defense above 180, then they are doing very very very VERY wrong. I'm sure MA's would much prefer defense bonuses vs something else. MA's already have the highest acc and hackers already take a giant IL accuracy penalty. The OP used MKT so he was naturally getting smashed by hackers, thats what hackers do.

To be honest I think the entire thread is rather pointless as hacker is not uber anymore.

For once I agree with you. Well put.

**Pylat**

Renzouken wrote:

Arcanoloth wrote:
Trikraft wrote:
Hacker:
1.) Increase the passive viral defense in the Martial Arts tree.
2.) Give martial arts an upgrade to their interlock accuracy vs. hackers. (In the form of an initiative buff, since hackers have to roll specials in interlock or use self defense.)
3.) If we're going to allow more buffs for the anti-class, its only fair to give back more debuffs in interlock, that way they have at least a small chance if they get lucky.

Seriously, I lol'd. MA's can max out their viral defense quite easily, its called Aikido GM. Hell, I used Karate GM and had a VD of +186. If a MA can't get their viral defense above 180, then they are doing very very very VERY wrong. I'm sure MA's would much prefer defense bonuses vs something else. MA's already have the highest acc and hackers already take a giant IL accuracy penalty. The OP used MKT so he was naturally getting smashed by hackers, thats what hackers do.

To be honest I think the entire thread is rather pointless as hacker is not uber anymore.

For once I agree with you. Well put.

Does this mean you'll be my friend? SMILEY

**Denary**

Arcanoloth wrote:

Renzouken wrote:
Arcanoloth wrote:
Trikraft wrote:
Hacker:
1.) Increase the passive viral defense in the Martial Arts tree.
2.) Give martial arts an upgrade to their interlock accuracy vs. hackers. (In the form of an initiative buff, since hackers have to roll specials in interlock or use self defense.)
3.) If we're going to allow more buffs for the anti-class, its only fair to give back more debuffs in interlock, that way they have at least a small chance if they get lucky.

Seriously, I lol'd. MA's can max out their viral defense quite easily, its called Aikido GM. Hell, I used Karate GM and had a VD of +186. If a MA can't get their viral defense above 180, then they are doing very very very VERY wrong. I'm sure MA's would much prefer defense bonuses vs something else. MA's already have the highest acc and hackers already take a giant IL accuracy penalty. The OP used MKT so he was naturally getting smashed by hackers, thats what hackers do.

To be honest I think the entire thread is rather pointless as hacker is not uber anymore.

For once I agree with you. Well put.

Does this mean you'll be my friend?

no Renzouken is my friend!!

Trikraft · 12/16/2006 18:07:10

Arcanoloth wrote:

Trikraft wrote:
Hacker:
1.) Increase the passive viral defense in the Martial Arts tree.
2.) Give martial arts an upgrade to their interlock accuracy vs. hackers. (In the form of an initiative buff, since hackers have to roll specials in interlock or use self defense.)
3.) If we're going to allow more buffs for the anti-class, its only fair to give back more debuffs in interlock, that way they have at least a small chance if they get lucky.

Seriously, I lol'd. MA's can max out their viral defense quite easily, its called Aikido GM. Hell, I used Karate GM and had a VD of +186. If a MA can't get their viral defense above 180, then they are doing very very very VERY wrong. I'm sure MA's would much prefer defense bonuses vs something else. MA's already have the highest acc and hackers already take a giant IL accuracy penalty. The OP used MKT so he was naturally getting smashed by hackers, thats what hackers do.

To be honest I think the entire thread is rather pointless as hacker is not uber anymore.

Mmkay, but you are aware that there are other MA trees yes? Martial Arts is the natural enemy of Hacker, just as Hacker is the natural enemy of Spy, and Spy is the natural enemy of Gunmen, and Gunmen are the natural enemy of Martial Artists. That covers the whole operative tree and the hacker tree. The sim trees in coder are pretty much preyed upon as hackers or operatives depending on the tree (Patcher or Combat Sims). Second, as the natural enemy it is part of the trees responsibility to have IN-BORN defense to the prey of that tree, not exterior buffing as such. Third, MA's have the highest accuracy base eh? Upgrade Attacks ring a bell? In a natual hacker build, even with accuracy debuffs with Ballista, I can rock an MA's world in less than 20 seconds. Not to mention Desperation.

P.S. - If MA's get defense vs. something else, then it breaks the "natural enemy' idea, since they would then be able to prey on two classes.

**Pylat**

Trikraft wrote:

Mmkay, but you are aware that there are other MA trees yes? Martial Arts is the natural enemy of Hacker, just as Hacker is the natural enemy of Spy, and Spy is the natural enemy of Gunmen, and Gunmen are the natural enemy of Martial Artists. That covers the whole operative tree and the hacker tree. The sim trees in coder are pretty much preyed upon as hackers or operatives depending on the tree (Patcher or Combat Sims).

Yes I am aware of that, your point being?

Trikraft wrote:

Second, as the natural enemy it is part of the trees responsibility to have IN-BORN defense to the prey of that tree, not exterior buffing as such.

And the in born defense is in the form of a reason of 25+ (Depending on how you play) giving you viral defense +40-50%. That sounds like an awfully high inborn defense. Oh, and lets not forget the +12% in the Karate tree from the lvl 33 passive buff, and the resistance bonuses in Aikido/Kung Fu. Seriously, anymore and EVERY MA would have max VD, and its already easy enough to do it.

Trikraft wrote:

Third, MA's have the highest accuracy base eh? Upgrade Attacks ring a bell? In a natual hacker build, even with accuracy debuffs with Ballista, I can rock an MA's world in less than 20 seconds. Not to mention Desperation.

Thats nice, but there are spy loads that can Rock hackers, Gun loads that can rock MKT's, MA loads that can rock gunmen. And Aikido benefits a great deal from desperation aswell, actually, correct me if I am wrong, but can't ALL trees use desperation? And regardless of upgrade attacks MA still has the highest BASE accuracy, once upgrade attacks is over hackers are very much in trouble in IL. The buff only lasts 20 seconds so you had better pray they are dead soon.

Trikraft wrote:

P.S. - If MA's get defense vs. something else, then it breaks the "natural enemy' idea, since they would then be able to prey on two classes.

Again, correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't spy get a +10% defense bonus vs guns and melee in the sneak ability? Does this break the "natural enemy" cycle? And if so, does that mean spy needs to be nerfed?

I'll point it out again, the OP is an MKT. According to your natural enemy cycle they should get rocked by hackers, he gets rocked by hackers and says they are overpowered, whats exactly is the problem with this?

**d00mninja**

Who ever thinks MA's need more defense against hackers is just deluded.
I've thrown hacks at MA's and had every single one bounce off them. MA's have all the defense they need.
If anything needs changing about hacker it's an increased number to contested rollouts.

Miggesch

The only thing that bugs the hell out of me is that all the Code and Area Infections stack - that can't be right.

Renzouken

Miggesch wrote:

The only thing that bugs the hell out of me is that all the Code and Area Infections stack - that can't be right.

Erm, well it is.

cryshal · 12/21/2006 09:19:50

well, as usual.. all of you are wrong.

no matter what wiseass-ex-machina nonsense sneaker says, the hacker dot's stack ON PURPOSE. the devs made that REAL CLEAR UNLESS YOU ARE MENTALLY HANDICAPPED. I REPEAT, THE HAX DOT ATTACKS ARE STACKABLE BY DESIGN AS OF A PATCH THAT CAME -AFTER- THE DOT DMG NERFS.

now.. was that in any way unclear? jesus fuxin christ.. you ppl, sometimes.. *shakes head*

theres obviously something afoot here. like trikraft saying MA needs more viral defense? are you kidding? trikraft, tho, doesnt seem to know what "BASE accuracy" means. base. BASE. BASE.

BASE.

yes, MA has the highest base accuracy. followed by mkt. hacker is somewhere around the middle, lets just say. smg for example has terrible accuracy but has other stuff that more than makes up for it.

but i digress. theres a larger problem at work here and it hasnt changed or otherwise been mitigated since day 1. everyone that logs onto the forum to add their 2 cents to a thread they didnt READ prior to posting *cof*sneaker*cough*kof* likely doesnt use, or rarely used, whatever tree theyre complaining about.

from now on, to say ANYthing about ANY tree, you should first post screenshots of you pvp'ing with it. i know trikraft and sneaker are both very sharp ppl, and i also know that neither of them know hacker well. level to 50 on the usual assassination missions with howitzer THEN you can start god-moding with hacker. til then.. dots arent supposed to stack, right, sneaker? xD

but seriously.. could a dev PLEASE ask the general public to get off hackers' nuts now? please? soon maybe? =D

**Kemy**

Cryshal, has it ever occured to you that stuff being implemented on design could be unbalanced?
Like the combat system we had before the revamp, that whole system was in game by design but that doesn't mean we had a balanced combat system.
By design doesn't mean it's flawless.

Renzouken · 12/21/2006 12:09:27

I'll ask again, seeing as I think it's an important legitimate question that was shrugged off.

Those who disagree with stackable damage over time abilities, would you rather be dealt raw damage? Say, instead of a Hacker hitting you with Code Infection 1.0, Infect Area 1.0, Code Infection 2.0 that will decrease your health slowly and can be cured easily by a Sweep or Antibiotic, you'd rather be hit with a Barrage, Blast, Bomb et cetera that will deal damage instantly, cost only a small amount of extra Inner Strength to cast and in some cases be cast more rapidly than the DoT abilities?

**Bayamos**

I think the DOT abilities in destroyer need to be made IL-only, Upgrade Attacks + DOTs is in my opinion the cheapest (and one of the easiest) ways to kill someone. Sure, MAs have defense, but they also don't have an accuracy booster... also judging that the nerf is less for lowerlevel hax (code infections), popping upgrade attacks and overclock and stacking CI4, CI3, CI2, CI1, Plague Zone 1, Plague Zone 2 is quite easy and rather lame to do. When I use hacker I stay away from DOTs just because they feel so cheap to use.

**Denary** · 12/21/2006 15:23:27

cryshal wrote:

well, as usual.. all of you are wrong.

no matter what wiseass-ex-machina nonsense sneaker says, the hacker dot's stack ON PURPOSE. the devs made that REAL CLEAR UNLESS YOU ARE MENTALLY HANDICAPPED. I REPEAT, THE HAX DOT ATTACKS ARE STACKABLE BY DESIGN AS OF A PATCH THAT CAME -AFTER- THE DOT DMG NERFS.

now.. was that in any way unclear? jesus fuxin christ.. you ppl, sometimes.. *shakes head*

theres obviously something afoot here. like trikraft saying MA needs more viral defense? are you kidding? trikraft, tho, doesnt seem to know what "BASE accuracy" means. base. BASE. BASE.

BASE.

yes, MA has the highest base accuracy. followed by mkt. hacker is somewhere around the middle, lets just say. smg for example has terrible accuracy but has other stuff that more than makes up for it.

but i digress. theres a larger problem at work here and it hasnt changed or otherwise been mitigated since day 1. everyone that logs onto the forum to add their 2 cents to a thread they didnt READ prior to posting *cof*sneaker*cough*kof* likely doesnt use, or rarely used, whatever tree theyre complaining about.

from now on, to say ANYthing about ANY tree, you should first post screenshots of you pvp'ing with it. i know trikraft and sneaker are both very sharp ppl, and i also know that neither of them know hacker well. level to 50 on the usual assassination missions with howitzer THEN you can start god-moding with hacker. til then.. dots arent supposed to stack, right, sneaker? xD

but seriously.. could a dev PLEASE ask the general public to get off hackers' nuts now? please? soon maybe? =D

this post screams attack, and the edit don't help non either so I wish to edit it

Unfortunately you are mistaken.

The hacker dot's stack on purpose. The Development team made multiple posts on the subject saying how it was by design.

yes, MA has the highest base accuracy. followed by mkt. hacker is somewhere around the middle, lets just say. Duelist for example has terrible accuracy but has other stuff that more than makes up for it.

there's a larger problem at work here and it hasn't changed or otherwise been mitigated since day 1. everyone that logs onto the forum to add their 2 cents to a thread they havn't read all the pages prior to posting and whoever makes the complaint likely doesnt use, or rarely uses, whatever tree they're complaining about.

thats all you needed to say, IMO thats all that was relevant. all information in there as far as I know is true

EDIT: SMG info was wrong