Very good points, Godgiver.
Another stupid thing is that Desperate Speed has a re-use timer of 298 seconds, or almost 5 mins. That is ridiculous, considering it increases your speed less than Hyper-Speed. Also, it costs 10 more IS than Hyper-Speed, and lasts almost 4 minutes less.
Adding on:
invisibility costing 50IS and having a timer just to move slightly faster than in sneak ( and to use ghost strike)
Diving Frankensteiner being a higher level move than punt, yet doing less damage, costing twice the IS (80 compared to punt's 40), a far longer reuse timer, and no IL accuracy bonus (punt has 80)
And yet, despite all of these things, the Spy tree is still a widely preferred choice for many.
When was the last time they fixed or a changed a tree? That's how long it's going to take them to fix this...cr.3.0.
Vinia wrote:
And yet, despite all of these things, the Spy MKT/Assassin tree is still a widely preferred choice for many.
Fixed. MS is busted.
Also:
GoDGiVeR wrote:
Another few points that needs fixing:* Vanish breaks easily (you stay invisible inside IL)* Vanish reuse needs to be reduced to from 1800 (30 minutes) to 600 (10 minutes) or even less* Smoke Bomb cost is a tad too high (120), reduce it to 80 - 100 (A Combo of Smoke Bomb and Frankensteiner costs 200 IS, that's nearly ALL of your IS, that is ridiculous)* Invisibility is already limited in time (30-40 secs) but it also uses 50 IS to activate, even if it fails (folks are too close), reduce that to 30 IS* I don't understand the 80 IS cost of Frankensteiner (164), while it's still a few damage points less than Punt (170), but takes 80 IS (Punt takes 40) and doesn't have IL accuracy (Punt has 80!!!!). Frankensteiner is even a lvl 46 ability while Punt is only level 36. I can't understand in the slightest how the system the devs use to judge an ability can misjudge an ability THAT much. Reduce IS cost to 30 and add an IL acc of 10-20, that should take care of the gross unbalance of two "equal" abilities.And while I'm already at "using the system to judge an ability", I don't understand either, why Surplex as a lvl 27 ability (comparison: Topsy Turvey lvl 25) does 120 damage (TT 37) and has 3 states (daze, stagger, off-balance) for *censored* 15 seconds (TT Confuse for 10 secs) and has an IS cost of mere 50 (TT 60 IS, plus it has +40 IL acc boost, but considering that any sneak attack goes automatically against Throw def and we all know Throw def is quasi non-existant due to lack of throw def %, the +40 acc doesn't seem all too useful). Considering this, the gross unbalance of Frankensteiner seems even more ridiculous.
Also you should note that IL acc bonus points get influenced, meaning that the 80 pts acc from punt are more like 140 pts on top of your normal acc (overkill).
i agree vanish should be fix but leave the rest of the tree alone its fine how it is .
What needed to be said was for the most part already said, buuuuuuuut it wouldn't hurt repeating a few points and adding some in for a general Shadow tree tweaking. So, I'll start from the Shadow and work up to Master Shadow.
Invisibility needs to be able to bring you into invisibility even when an opponent is looking at you. It lasts a short time, costs a decent chunk of IS, and doesn't break on damage anyway. Another tool for the Spy to get away from opponents. This might also fix some problems with Vanish where it doesn't actually make you roll out despite you doing the animation, because another enemy is looking at you like some kind of ceiling cat. Should probably add on a cool-down as well of whatever it's level 50 duration is doubled to the invisibility grant ability.
Desperate speed is pretty useless at the moment. It's granted at level 25, the same level you get hyper-speed. Maybe if the speed % bonus were upped to say 100% so that a spy even with a movement speed debuff could get away from someone slowing their speed (I know speed caps at 160% total) then it'd be helpful in a tight spot.
Disable Security Device is completley useless, period. I don't know of anyone outside CR1 who's used this ability with the exception of curious players and probably new players. I haven't really thought of anything especially good for spies to use that for, maybe turn it into an ability they can use that will lower a target/area's stealth detection so that their chances of being popped out of sneak are lowered, but when it's used it keeps the Shadow in Sneak or Invisibility. I think it'd be better if it were only usable in invisibility to get some more people to use invisibility.
Vanish I think needs to be on a 5 minute cool-down timer. No combat ability should be over 5 minutes in re-use in any MMO ever. Side Note: I for one don't have a good idea on what breaks vanish. I have some ideas, but they're all just shots in the dark. I've tried testing it before, but the 30 minute cool-down quickly made me drop it and move on (And relogging sucks).
Smoke Bomb's FX needs to be toned down a bit because ye gods it's blinding (if for some odd reason you actually do impliment these suggested changes/read this post, could you go ahead and tone down the flashbomb FX too? That'd be super). I agree that it's IS needs to be reduced, I'd say in the ballpark of 60 IS is fair.
Ghost Strike perhaps can be changed into a knife-style sneak attack that has a chance (Say 40% or whatever chance it has now?) to turn you invisible if you successfully hit the opponent, same type of cool-down with other sneak attacks as well as probably a lower DPS than some sneak attacks for a move that would render you invisible to the enemy. Ooh! Or rename it and make it a lower DPS version of the Twins' Speedy Barbershop move or whatever it's called, and make it give a chance to powerless to yet again with the theme: allow the shadow a chance to escape combat.
Diving Frankenstiener is the highest damaging Sneak attack move, despite a lower DPS. I think because of that, it's IS cost is justified. Plus, the Shadow tree seems to be for getting around obstacles and enemies, and evading death (at least to me), so one nice high damage sneak attack is good.
Master Shadow either needs to stop IS regen and/or break on the use of any ability as was said earlier in this thread. I have used Master Shadow for actual PVP (not just standing around in MS flagged making ape noises) and really think that the actual Master Shadow ability is a bit too overpowered in terms of allowing a player to not die and still be able to counter-attack (If you were violated in Datamine on Syntax and agree, please raise your hand). It'd also be kind of nice to still be able to open doors while a MS but I understand why that's not so now, and don't really recommend it as a change to be put into effect.
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While we're on the subject of the general spy tree, as I've stated in a previous thread or two I don't think knives in interlock should have a bonus to hitting, but instead have no bonus or a penalty to being used in interlock. Throwing knives accuratley in close quarters combat does not make a whole lot of sense. Spies should only enter interlock to get off sneak attacks, then attempt to leave interlock ASAP. They shouldn't be able to hold their ground so well against other interlock classes.
eval wrote:
Reading eval's post I suddenly thought (coupled with my earlier comment) that if the dev's were to look at the whole spy tree then it'll be used even more then it is now. However despite the tendancy for MxO to look like MKT Online, I agree with the sentiment that most of these abilities stated need to be seriously looked at to balance and make them work properly.
That being said, the quoted paragraph above is a must. Spy, Master Shadow, Assassin... IMO these names conjure images of those helping the battle from the shadows and slinking away again, not frontline fighters which is what I see a lot of at the moment.
Isn't Disable Security Device for disabling those things in missions?
It does more damage than Punt? Side-question: What's the highest damaging move in the game?
I agree. I spy outrolling and killing an MA or even an IL-built Gunman is ridiculous.
