It could as far as the Allegory is concerned however Reloaded moves the Matrix beyond the allegory. In Reloaded we find out about the subconscious choice that all humans have that decides for them if they reject or accept. Wiping one's memories would not affect this, it actually would only bring it that much closer. Without any reason to not want to reject the Matrix again nothing is stopping them from doing so.

You have a point, but that is if they live the exact same lives as before. Whilst they would again have the itch or the questioning of reality, their decision when faced with the choice could be different depending on their situation, i.e. family, status etc.. Cyph said he wanted to be famous, most likely because of greed, but possibly to try to combat the impulse to be freed again.

The Human characteristic of curiosity is strong, granted, but it can be overcome.

Vinia wrote:

If the Machines can wipe minds, if a person doesn't remember what they've seen or done, wouldn't that get around the cave allegory?

It could as far as the Allegory is concerned however Reloaded moves the Matrix beyond the allegory. In Reloaded we find out about the subconscious choice that all humans have that decides for them if they reject or accept. Wiping one's memories would not affect this, it actually would only bring it that much closer. Without any reason to not want to reject the Matrix again nothing is stopping them from doing so.

So what you would have is a bluepill that is the same as a flickering light bulb. It works half the time but the other half its getting awoken again and again. There is no reason to keep this up when you can simply replace the bulb or human with another that will work 100% of the time.

Well assuming experience does not define and shape who someone is. Even on a subconscious level.

I mean as far as anyone who would wish to return to the lives they had before they were awakened, I'm not so sure on what would prevent them from doing so, even as a redpill. That is, to have made the conscious and subconscious choice of wanting to live such a life.

In pratical terms, simply jacking into the Simulation for the majority of the time and spending said time with friends and family.

What I've always wondered is, would those who do wish to return to the Simulation make that same choice as a bluepill still plugged into the Matrix or is it one that can only be made from the perpsective of having been exposed to the world of the redpills. i.e The experience of knowing the grass actually isn't greener on the other side.

GamiSB wrote:

It could as far as the Allegory is concerned however Reloaded moves the Matrix beyond the allegory. In Reloaded we find out about the subconscious choice that all humans have that decides for them if they reject or accept. Wiping one's memories would not affect this, it actually would only bring it that much closer. Without any reason to not want to reject the Matrix again nothing is stopping them from doing so.

You have a point, but that is if they live the exact same lives as before. Whilst they would again have the itch or the questioning of reality, their decision when faced with the choice could be different depending on their situation, i.e. family, status etc.. Cyph said he wanted to be famous, most likely because of greed, but possibly to try to combat the impulse to be freed again.

The Human characteristic of curiosity is strong, granted, but it can be overcome.

GamiSB wrote:

Vinia wrote:

If the Machines can wipe minds, if a person doesn't remember what they've seen or done, wouldn't that get around the cave allegory?

It could as far as the Allegory is concerned however Reloaded moves the Matrix beyond the allegory. In Reloaded we find out about the subconscious choice that all humans have that decides for them if they reject or accept. Wiping one's memories would not affect this, it actually would only bring it that much closer. Without any reason to not want to reject the Matrix again nothing is stopping them from doing so.

So what you would have is a bluepill that is the same as a flickering light bulb. It works half the time but the other half its getting awoken again and again. There is no reason to keep this up when you can simply replace the bulb or human with another that will work 100% of the time.

Well assuming experience does not define and shape who someone is. Even on a subconscious level.

I mean as far as anyone who would wish to return to the lives they had before they were awakened, I'm not so sure on what would prevent them from doing so, even as a redpill. That is, to have made the conscious and subconscious choice of wanting to live such a life.

In pratical terms, simply jacking into the Simulation for the majority of the time and spending said time with friends and family.

What I've always wondered is, would those who do wish to return to the Simulation make that same choice as a bluepill still plugged into the Matrix or is it one that can only be made from the perpsective of having been exposed to the world of the redpills. i.e The experience of knowing the grass actually isn't greener on the other side.

I think the biggest problem is that people misunderstand the concept of splinter orgs.  A splinter org, as extreme (or not) as it may be originates from the parent org or, for all intent and purpose, a principle that is the foundation.

Cypherites and E Pluribus Neo arose during a time of great tension between Zion and the Machines.  Before the war the differences they had with their parent was obvious.  Now that is no longer the case.  However, there are still differences otherwise there'd be no one to makeup the orgs themselves.  The "base idea" is the same but the means to that end is what separates everyone.

It's wrong to accuse a different organization of having no purpose, or at least not one that satisfies you personally.  I would never imply that someone doesn't have a purpose.  I've never walked in their shoes and have no idea what drives them or their companions.  I don't have to understand it but I do respect that within each of us is something that compels us to move forward.  You have your reasons and we have ours.  We don't and will never need someone to give us purpose.  We all find it on our own. 

If it changes, we will adapt and keeping walking towards tomorrow.

I think the biggest problem is that people misunderstand the concept of splinter orgs.  A splinter org, as extreme (or not) as it may be originates from the parent org or, for all intent and purpose, a principle that is the foundation.

Cypherites and E Pluribus Neo arose during a time of great tension between Zion and the Machines.  Before the war the differences they had with their parent was obvious.  Now that is no longer the case.  However, there are still differences otherwise there'd be no one to makeup the orgs themselves.  The "base idea" is the same but the means to that end is what separates everyone.

It's wrong to accuse a different organization of having no purpose, or at least not one that satisfies you personally.  I would never imply that someone doesn't have a purpose.  I've never walked in their shoes and have no idea what drives them or their companions.  I don't have to understand it but I do respect that within each of us is something that compels us to move forward.  You have your reasons and we have ours.  We don't and will never need someone to give us purpose.  We all find it on our own. 

If it changes, we will adapt and keeping walking towards tomorrow.

We are not talking about individual purpose. We are talking about an organization's purpose. One that in no way its own. It is a carbon copy only more focused of one of the many purpose for the Machine organization. There is nothing the Cypherites want that the Machines do not want. Nothing that they do that the Machines could not do. The splinter orgs worked when there was tension, they do not work now that the tension is gone and we are all at war.

The war striped individuality from the Cypherites, they were no longer needed to be the black ops org for the Machines that worked for them outside of the truce. They no longer have a purpose that is their own as reinsertion is impossible. They are just Machines now only with two human leaders rather than programs.

Thus and "Cypherite" purpose anyone claims to have is non existent, it is only a Machinist purpose wearing a mask over a suit.

You could never be more wrong.

Your twisted, biased notion that cypherites exist for nothing more than reinsertion is embarassing.  We have and will always exist to oppose anyone who tries to awaken another human being.  That is our calling.  That is our purpose.  We will destroy and murder and whatever it takes to end it.

But calling us machinists in masks...oh how clever!  You must have grinned from ear to ear typing that in your prophet duster, GamiSB.  You think we need Gray telling us that awakenings are forbidden for us to act?  You think that we need some suit telling us we're at war?  Who was at war while Zionites and Machinists toasted to the prospects of peace and unity?

EPN and Cypherites, that's who.  We were always at war.  The end of the truce changed nothing for us and yet here you stand claiming that we're the most changed of all.  So we're purposeless because the machines finally decided to put an end to Zion?  Ha!  We're purposeless because we can't go back to sleep?  Ha Ha!!

Yes.  We're at war.  The lines have blurred but who has really changed during that process?  The ones still doing what we've been doing all along or the ones now precarioulsy placed in a position not so different than ours?

You could never be more wrong.

Your twisted, biased notion that cypherites exist for nothing more than reinsertion is embarassing.  We have and will always exist to oppose anyone who tries to awaken another human being.  That is our calling.  That is our purpose.  We will destroy and murder and whatever it takes to end it.

But calling us machinists in masks...oh how clever!  You must have grinned from ear to ear typing that in your prophet duster, GamiSB.  You think we need Gray telling us that awakenings are forbidden for us to act?  You think that we need some suit telling us we're at war?  Who was at war while Zionites and Machinists toasted to the prospects of peace and unity?

EPN and Cypherites, that's who.  We were always at war.  The end of the truce changed nothing for us and yet here you stand claiming that we're the most changed of all.  So we're purposeless because the machines finally decided to put an end to Zion?  Ha!  We're purposeless because we can't go back to sleep?  Ha Ha!!

Yes.  We're at war.  The lines have blurred but who has really changed during that process?  The ones still doing what we've been doing all along or the ones now precarioulsy placed in a position not so different than ours?

OOC babe.

That is YOUR personal RP on how YOU want to view the Cypherite organization. Where has Cryptos ever advocated murder? In fact I believe it was him, the LEADER that told off Veil for murdering a Zionite crew. The Cypherite org is more then just a "We are your opposite" organization as it is clearly indifferent and clearly supportive of some of the collected ideas shared between all orgs. But it isn't anymore more then just being the Machines twin.

Take a moment and get back into reality then try opening your eyes and remove your personal bias of how you want to see them. Before the war the Cypherites were working for the Machines, nothing more, its members to duped into following a Machine made leader. After the war started up they again fell right back into their old place of helping the Machine but just with a "We don't work for you" tag under every receipt.

Before the war they had purpose although it was dwindling after the reinsertion bit, and now they can all but be removed and replaced with more Machine events and you would never be able to notice a difference.

Your purposeless because you don't have any purpose of your own. All you are is banking off of the Machines purpose. When someone says Cypherite purpose all they really are saying is Machine purpose with a mask. If you can find something that distinguishes you from the Machines then by all means show me and back it up. As of yet there is nothing said that any Machinist would not say or advocate.

OOC?  Okay, fine.

First, don't point the finger at a Cypherite and call them purposeless for banking off someone else's purpose when EPN's whole motto is "following Neo".  Alright?

Second, what do you think a splinter org is?  A piece of a whole.  They are not a completely different group from their parent.  There are underlining principles that both groups SHARE.  The differences are in how they operate.  Certainly you'd defend EPN by agreeing that EPN functions differently than Zion, right?

Cypherites are violent machinists.  As a result they don't get along with their more "refined" brothers.  Cypherites revel in chaos and destruction.  Cypherites don't care about peace or unity.  All they want is for everyone in Zion and EPN to die.  This may just be my personal stance but I can't think of another Cypherite who thinks differently.  Are we all wrong as a result?

The "reinsertion debunk" and the war really blurred the lines between cypherite and machinist.  But if there really was no point in the two groups being separated wouldn't they have already been rejoined?  Certainly it'd make things easier for Rarebit, right?  So why not combine them back?  Could it be that he has the players in mind?  If so, then does that not mean that our personal RP is what gives us purpose?

Cadsuane wrote:

My apologies, I forgot that subtlety is beyond the members of EPN.  As you were. 

Riiiiight.  Hnnnnnnnnnnnggghhhh!

 

Folks, this was an OOC thread. I really wanted to hear from people about where the Cyph RP has gone and how we might bring it back, so to speak. I really thought the idea of continuing to find a way to get reinserted was a good direction to take. Just because it's not possible now, doesn't mean it's impossible to accomplish.

I guess maybe this is best left to everyone's personal RP, though, instead of the main stroyline.

Are you refering to the main storyline or regular RP, cause I'll tell you right now, that out of most of the factions niether exist. No Cyph that I have seen RPs on there own, they just sit at mara. During events no one can seem to stay IC except a select few and that gets annoying real fast when you got ppl in the room loling, making stupid comments or replying to the event crashers. If you really want an answer to your reinsertion question that badly then just ask rarebit. I'm still not seeing how sleepwalkers brought this up. To be honest, I don't even think you guys really know what your purpose is. You have Libertas Vertas pulling that same stuff in a sense that that Sleepwalkers were, but if you don't agree with that method then your just regular Zionites. Same as you were just saying we are machines with a different name, I would worry about your own org first instead of telling us what we are or are not.

When you say where has the cyph rp gone, what do you mean. I haven't seen any org RPing at all, and if your are then your bieng pretty secerative about it.

OOC?  Okay, fine.

First, don't point the finger at a Cypherite and call them purposeless for banking off someone else's purpose when EPN's whole motto is "following Neo".  Alright?

Second, what do you think a splinter org is?  A piece of a whole.  They are not a completely different group from their parent.  There are underlining principles that both groups SHARE.  The differences are in how they operate.  Certainly you'd defend EPN by agreeing that EPN functions differently than Zion, right?

Cypherites are violent machinists.  As a result they don't get along with their more "refined" brothers.  Cypherites revel in chaos and destruction.  Cypherites don't care about peace or unity.  All they want is for everyone in Zion and EPN to die.  This may just be my personal stance but I can't think of another Cypherite who thinks differently.  Are we all wrong as a result?

The "reinsertion debunk" and the war really blurred the lines between cypherite and machinist.  But if there really was no point in the two groups being separated wouldn't they have already been rejoined?  Certainly it'd make things easier for Rarebit, right?  So why not combine them back?  Could it be that he has the players in mind?  If so, then does that not mean that our personal RP is what gives us purpose?

I am well aware of EPN's situation and similarly lack of original purpose. Even more similarity can be found in Zion as Neo's purpose was all but fabricated until the end and would be impossible for EPN to recreate as we do not have a self multiplying virus that is about to take over. EPN uses Neo's beliefs as its purpose but not his purpose itself.

A splinter org is an org that was apart of a larger one. They take the original purpose and put their own spin on it. Their own spin is the key. The Cypherites today do not have this. Everything they added to the machines purpose has been found to be impossible to achieve or become outdated. Thus their purpose has become nothing more then the same as the machines. EPN is following this same pattern. After the war started the goals that EPN once had alone are steadily being adopted by Zion. And if it is just on how they operate then there still is no difference. Now that we have the war the Cypherites act in the same manor as Machiens would if they had Humans leading them.

All your saying is how you perceive them and play your character when in fact they are nothing of what you claim outside of how players want them to be. Cryptos has kept the org from just bringing about chaos and destruction since he came back to lead it. Any violence they do show is nothing unusual to what any Machinist shows now towards the same enemies and hardly to the point of "Kill them all kill them all kill them all!". So yes you are all wrong by the stories standards of what is and what you claim is not the Cypherites purpose.

The only reason they have not been rejoined is simple. The outcry from the community. Despite their purposelessness people still like playing as them. To remove them would be suicide as even more players would more then likely just end up quiting. Your personal RP has nothing to do with it. If Rarebit was interested in how we play our characters and keeping us all happy rather than how the story is evolving, reinsertion would still be possible and we would have a lot more happening in this game story wise than we do now.

Grace of Darkness wrote:

Again, why waste your time. This is just going to go back and forth about who is right and who is wrong. Just give it up and let EPN conjure up there own opinion. It's great that you want to enlighten everyone about cyph history or w/e but I seriously think your are wasting you time. Also you can't say what cyphs are and are not because not all factions are on the same page.

Because were OOC and any personal bias my chracter might of inserted in here was taken out, and any "secrets" you claim to have can just be found in the Mission archives and event recaps that allows anyone to see for themselves. Not to mention i put in a little less than a year in being a Cypherite when the game went live and do have a Cyph alt so I think I have a grasping of the Cypherite mindset.

Difference in opinions between factions are irrelevant when it comes to the story. They can have them sure, but they need to realize that it is just their opinion and that the story sooner or later may come down and beat them over the head making it clear that their opinion was wrong. See possibility of reinsertion.

Yes, you have a cyph alt like everyone else that makes up the org(kind of obvious when you show up as gami to the event). Yet you still have no idea what your purpose is after the reinsertion idea was shot down. This is why I have problems with most cyphs in the org, and why I really don't consider you cyphs at all, you just 'there'. Also what I am talking about has not been mentioned in any missions to my knowlegde, nor events. You have a "grasping" of the cyph mindset but are still lost.

Yes the difference in opions between faction are irrelevant a most times, but this is aplayer driven storyline. Somethings can't be changes for certain purposes of the story yes, but there is always one or two doors opens to different path if players don't always choose the default direction. The reinsertion thing is over, I don't even know why you keep bringing that up. Every cyph who's background was based of off that left the game like it was the SOE transition. Others changed there background to apdat to the shock of no reinsertion and some never wanted to be reinserted at all.

Maybe your right, maybe we should just go back to the 3 orgs and continue with where we left off being bored to death. The EPN and Cyph org actually spice things up IMO. But please continue ruining the enjoyment for other just because YOU don't agree with it. I though this thread was about how to bring cyph rp back not the "gami come in and tell everyone that there org sucks and shouldn't exsist anymore" thread

GamiSB wrote:

Grace of Darkness wrote:

Again, why waste your time. This is just going to go back and forth about who is right and who is wrong. Just give it up and let EPN conjure up there own opinion. It's great that you want to enlighten everyone about cyph history or w/e but I seriously think your are wasting you time. Also you can't say what cyphs are and are not because not all factions are on the same page.

Because were OOC and any personal bias my chracter might of inserted in here was taken out, and any "secrets" you claim to have can just be found in the Mission archives and event recaps that allows anyone to see for themselves. Not to mention i put in a little less than a year in being a Cypherite when the game went live and do have a Cyph alt so I think I have a grasping of the Cypherite mindset.

Difference in opinions between factions are irrelevant when it comes to the story. They can have them sure, but they need to realize that it is just their opinion and that the story sooner or later may come down and beat them over the head making it clear that their opinion was wrong. See possibility of reinsertion.

Yes, you have a cyph alt like everyone else that makes up the org(kind of obvious when you show up as gami to the event). Yet you still have no idea what your purpose is after the reinsertion idea was shot down. This is why I have problems with most cyphs in the org, and why I really don't consider you cyphs at all, you just 'there'. Also what I am talking about has not been mentioned in any missions to my knowlegde, nor events. You have a "grasping" of the cyph mindset but are still lost.

Yes the difference in opions between faction are irrelevant a most times, but this is aplayer driven storyline. Somethings can't be changes for certain purposes of the story yes, but there is always one or two doors opens to different path if players don't always choose the default direction. The reinsertion thing is over, I don't even know why you keep bringing that up. Every cyph who's background was based of off that left the game like it was the SOE transition. Others changed there background to apdat to the shock of no reinsertion and some never wanted to be reinserted at all.

Maybe your right, maybe we should just go back to the 3 orgs and continue with where we left off being bored to death. The EPN and Cyph org actually spice things up IMO. But please continue ruining the enjoyment for other just because YOU don't agree with it. I though this thread was about how to bring cyph rp back not the "gami come in and tell everyone that there org sucks and shouldn't exsist anymore" thread