zomg nerf knives QQ

Zudrag

The Leo wrote:

Zudrag wrote:

On a note not related to spies, I think also that Upgrade attacks should be unusable in interlock, to prevent hackers from dominating interlock (despite it only being for a short amount of time, it's still a huge pain for any interlock-oriented class to go through those first few rounds and be reduced to either a sliver or be killed by a Hacker that uses upgrade attacks.)
Upgrade attacks merely removes the IL penalty and adds 5+10 pts acc to the anyway low hacker acc for a few seconds. With it hackers can miss just as much as MA vs MA or gunman vs gunman. If they domminate in those few seconds then maybe itäs because they should have a slight chance of damaging the enemy before dying??

It adds about 100 points of accuracy for a level 50, actually.

**Pylat**

Marias wrote:

Out of interlock, Serene Calm is almost guaranteed miss for MKT's. Desperation+Serene Calm in interlock is a non negotiable Death Sentence.

So you propose that EVERY time an MA fights an MKT they have to pop serene calm? That's 50 IS down right there, quite a price to pay just to level the playing field.

But even with it active you have a total base thrown defense of 58 (Aikido) + 47 (Hyper Sense) + 25 (Serene Calm) = 130.

Now assume you have Trolls Hide (3%), Quicksilver Gloves (6%) and the +2% defense Rocawear. Total Defense = 130 x 1.11 = 144.

You still need another 16 points of defense from attributes. So that's 6 points you need to put into Reason (130 x 1.23 = 159). All of this, simply so your defense is merely parable to the accuracy of an MKT, which only lasts for a little over half a minute. I think that's a good indicator that the tree needs work.

As for desperation in IL, an MKT can use Desperation aswell, and then go back to dominating you, so we're back to square one.

Marias wrote:

MKT has no Viral Defense and has to be about 5 meters closer than a Hacker for its abilities to hit, so Root/Powerless makes you set out of interlock. Even with the accuracy penalties in interlock, Hacker wins hands down with Dots.

Actually, most knives have a range of 16m. Most hacks have a range of 16m or less. There are a few with a range of 20m (Code Freeze 1.0 and 2.0, Logic Barrage and Blast, all the awesome debuffs place you within range of the MKT). But if you are seriously proposing that roots that break on damage and some single target damage attacks are all you need to kill an MKT from out of their range you must have been fighting a catatonic MKT. As for the DOT's in IL. MKT has an accuracy of around 160. Hacker has an accuracy of around 130-145 (depending on loadout). Hacker attacks take a penalty to damage in IL that can be as high as -70 to acc. Even the lower level DOT's take over -20 to acc after modifiers. So tell me, with an acc of 168 (After CT modifiers) what aspect of the combat system decides that MKT's will consistently lose rolls to someone with an acc between 125 and 60 (The two extremes of acc)?

Marias wrote:

Rifles have the range and freefire damage advantage, so one root while a Rifleman puts on every damage buff that he has ends up with a 3-4 shot kill out of interlock. The only problem there is Ballistic Defense and it's supposed to be that way.

Unless the MKT hits the rifleman with a root aswell or uses block tactics to dodge most of the attacks. With hacker stats and some smart loadout choices and resistance I was dodging everything ER's could throw at me, it's even easier as an MKT, where you can push your ballistic defense bonus to +74% without breaking a sweat.

I'm asking for balance throw buffs. Fix the bugs that affect MKT, add thrown defense, more debuffs in hacker that are effective vs Spy is what I want. Right now there's basically no way to put an MKT on the back foot and have them at a disadvantage, that needs to change.

**Marias**

Pylat wrote:

Marias wrote:
Out of interlock, Serene Calm is almost guaranteed miss for MKT's. Desperation+Serene Calm in interlock is a non negotiable Death Sentence.
So you propose that EVERY time an MA fights an MKT they have to pop serene calm? That's 50 IS down right there, quite a price to pay just to level the playing field.

But even with it active you have a total base thrown defense of 58 (Aikido) + 47 (Hyper Sense) + 25 (Serene Calm) = 130.

Now assume you have Trolls Hide (3%), Quicksilver Gloves (6%) and the +2% defense Rocawear. Total Defense = 130 x 1.11 = 144.

You still need another 16 points of defense from attributes. So that's 6 points you need to put into Reason (130 x 1.23 = 159). All of this, simply so your defense is merely parable to the accuracy of an MKT, which only lasts for a little over half a minute. I think that's a good indicator that the tree needs work.

As for desperation in IL, an MKT can use Desperation aswell, and then go back to dominating you, so we're back to square one.

Marias wrote:
MKT has no Viral Defense and has to be about 5 meters closer than a Hacker for its abilities to hit, so Root/Powerless makes you set out of interlock. Even with the accuracy penalties in interlock, Hacker wins hands down with Dots.
Actually, most knives have a range of 16m. Most hacks have a range of 16m or less. There are a few with a range of 20m (Code Freeze 1.0 and 2.0, Logic Barrage and Blast, all the awesome debuffs place you within range of the MKT). But if you are seriously proposing that roots that break on damage and some single target damage attacks are all you need to kill an MKT from out of their range you must have been fighting a catatonic MKT. As for the DOT's in IL. MKT has an accuracy of around 160. Hacker has an accuracy of around 130-145 (depending on loadout). Hacker attacks take a penalty to damage in IL that can be as high as -70 to acc. Even the lower level DOT's take over -20 to acc after modifiers. So tell me, with an acc of 168 (After CT modifiers) what aspect of the combat system decides that MKT's will consistently lose rolls to someone with an acc between 125 and 60 (The two extremes of acc)?

Marias wrote:

Rifles have the range and freefire damage advantage, so one root while a Rifleman puts on every damage buff that he has ends up with a 3-4 shot kill out of interlock. The only problem there is Ballistic Defense and it's supposed to be that way.
Unless the MKT hits the rifleman with a root aswell or uses block tactics to dodge most of the attacks. With hacker stats and some smart loadout choices and resistance I was dodging everything ER's could throw at me, it's even easier as an MKT, where you can push your ballistic defense bonus to +74% without breaking a sweat.

I'm asking for balance throw buffs. Fix the bugs that affect MKT, add thrown defense, more debuffs in hacker that are effective vs Spy is what I want. Right now there's basically no way to put an MKT on the back foot and have them at a disadvantage, that needs to change.

First off, MA isn't supposed to have an over abundance of Thrown Defense. Hacker is, hence why I would be in favor of adding Thrown Defense passives in the Hacker tree. Regardless of this, 80% of MA's will crush MKT's in interlock, no contest - just because of the damage difference. You say that MKT's can go *CENSORED* for tat with MA's in interlock, but this just isn't my experience. I don't think I'm alone there either. Also, the math in CR2 is almost entirely theoretical simply because we don't see the rolls in action. I've done the math and it still doesn't change the fact that any class can dominate any other class. The numbers lie, and we still don't even really know how Desperation calculates bonus accuracy.

While some Hacker abilities place you in range of knives, Hackers also have the advantage of being able to root from a longer range and have whatever status effect that they need at the drop of a hat. Root, Vector, LC. That's half of the MKT's health gone. I can recall very few times that I've been in interlock with a Hacker/DOT specialist and I've beaten him hit for hit. More often than not, the case will be that a Hacker throws down a Stun, and then comes Upgrade Attacks/DOT *CENSORED*.

The last scenario with Rifleman was a stretch, and I don't expect any run of the mill fresh 50 to be able to pull it off without practice. It's just an example that shows that beating an MKT isn't really all that difficult with a bit of luck, even you're supposed to lose by design. I've even been beaten by above average Duelists as a MKT who've stacked up on Resistance and tanked me.

I hear a lot of complaining about Spy, but it's honestly one of the classes that I worry about the least in PvP. I'd be more than happy to demonstrate in game a variety of ways in which any other class can beat a MKT.

**jl10899**

Zudrag wrote:

The Leo wrote:
Zudrag wrote:

On a note not related to spies, I think also that Upgrade attacks should be unusable in interlock, to prevent hackers from dominating interlock (despite it only being for a short amount of time, it's still a huge pain for any interlock-oriented class to go through those first few rounds and be reduced to either a sliver or be killed by a Hacker that uses upgrade attacks.)
Upgrade attacks merely removes the IL penalty and adds 5+10 pts acc to the anyway low hacker acc for a few seconds. With it hackers can miss just as much as MA vs MA or gunman vs gunman. If they domminate in those few seconds then maybe itäs because they should have a slight chance of damaging the enemy before dying??

It adds about 100 points of accuracy for a level 50, actually.

how about a buff to CT then since every other class has one

**Cadsuane**

Speaking from experience, it takes a pretty good MKT to beat a decent MA or Hacker in interlock.
It's the Spy's ability to operate from IL or OOL and control the flow of a fight that really sets the class apart. My suggestion above would give the MKT a proper weakness and hopefully balance the situation better than it is now.

**LtCmdr_Tsusai**

Surprised anyone hasn't brought up MKTs using grab/power in interlock to outdo MAs.

The Leo

Oh right, I am also kinda tired of punts from my side. It should be either behind me in a cone 90 degrees or just allow them to use all those abs from where ever they want.

**Brommerz77**

Easy mode makes me beef and takes away my burgers.

**Pylat**

Cadsuane wrote:

My suggestion above would give the MKT a proper weakness and hopefully balance the situation better than it is now.

That is basically my whole point, there is practically no combat situation that you can place an MKT in in which they are truly at a disadvantage.

In IL? Spam a bunch of high acc, high damage, low IS knives
OoIL? Spam a bunch of high acc, high damage, low IS knives with stacking timers and easy to achieve permaroots.

And, for the love of god, make it so you actually have to be BEHIND people to use sneak attacks. In my experience there is roughly a 70 degree cone in front of a player where you can't sneak attack from, leaving 290 degrees that is free sailing for any MKT.

**ShiXinFeng**

Ya'll do know that Zudrag probably only started this thread for teh lulz, right?

On topic though, MKT is fine. I love them. Especially when they can two-hit me even with my Hyper running and Thrown resistance clothing on. Seriously, if I get killed by an MKT, I know I am doing something right.

**Sphairo**

Pylat wrote:

Cadsuane wrote:
My suggestion above would give the MKT a proper weakness and hopefully balance the situation better than it is now.

That is basically my whole point, there is practically no combat situation that you can place an MKT in in which they are truly at a disadvantage.

In IL? Spam a bunch of high acc, high damage, low IS knives
OoIL? Spam a bunch of high acc, high damage, low IS knives with stacking timers and easy to achieve permaroots.

And, for the love of god, make it so you actually have to be BEHIND people to use sneak attacks. In my experience there is roughly a 70 degree cone in front of a player where you can't sneak attack from, leaving 290 degrees that is free sailing for any MKT.

Goodness yes, the cone is waaaaaaaaay to small, it makes NO sense for me to backup against the wall or continually turn on the spot and they still manage to suplex or stagger throw you.

MKT having absaloutely no place in the Matrix Universe is one thing, it being able to cut and slice the way it does right now is another! MxO Population: MKT (For Syntax anyway)

Croesis

Sphairo wrote:

Goodness yes, the cone is waaaaaaaaay to small, it makes NO sense for me to backup against the wall or continually turn on the spot and they still manage to suplex or stagger throw you.

MKT having absaloutely no place in the Matrix Universe is one thing, it being able to cut and slice the way it does right now is another! MxO Population: MKT (For Syntax anyway)

I saw a knife being thrown what? Once or twice in the whole trilogy and again not as main offensive use, the Twins' razor blades were used as melee weaponry. It always surprises me how despite being the least used method of combat it is the one most used in the game. Mind you, you don't see any (that I can think of) offensive hacking in the movies either. I'd have to agree with Rarebit once again when he said if he had it his way MxO would have been MA and Guns with some command line hacking (and I presume the odd knife throw skill thrown in).

I agree, recently it has looked like MKT Online...