Let's talk spy......

The Leo

BEFORE YOU FLAME ME, READ....PLEASE.
Ok I have noticed sometihng very annoying. Ceratain abilities on spy tree (like staggering trow) do insane amount of dmg
without requiring special states AND only in 3 seconds. When I am a sniper and do snipershot it takes me at least 5 seconds + I have to activate the dmg ab in order to make as much dmg as staggering trow. I suggest at least ONE of the 3 following things to be implemented.
1.Lower the dmg to 100 dps.
or
2.make the spy work for the dmg and make the ab require a state.
or
3.Make the timer longer. And not just 4 seconds. I think 5.5 secs is perfect.

Coz now we have this: "Fatty laugher: Hohohoho I amke 1000 dmg with staggering trow. I totally pwn." with one single button.
This is not the only ability and I suggest that others underpowered spy abilities need more dmg. Gotta work devs... chapp chapp!!!

**Denary**

I think u should make all the knives have a timer, I hate the fact that they can be spam thrown, with the reduced IS MKT can enter interlock with an MA, pwn him and then enter interlock with another and give him a run for his money!!

Wh1t3Kn1ght

if your getting damaged for 1000 damage with staggering throw you just need some throw resistance, as far as timers go hacker has the best advantage, as far as you know which abilities to use and when, this game is really about knowledge and wisdom, knowing your load and knowing when and how to use it. once you get to that point any class can fall to you, or be fallen by you. (btw i am not at this point nor do i claim to Pwn anyone lol i just know this from observation)

**Denary**

Wh1t3Kn1ght wrote:

if your getting damaged for 1000 damage with staggering throw you just need some throw resistance, as far as timers go hacker has the best advantage, as far as you know which abilities to use and when, this game is really about knowledge and wisdom, knowing your load and knowing when and how to use it. once you get to that point any class can fall to you, or be fallen by you. (btw i am not at this point nor do i claim to Pwn anyone lol i just know this from observation)

well unfortunately even the best gunman cannot always take an average MKT because in all honesty an MKT has the defense buffs for guns

**Pylat**

How's this for IS costs. I put Inefficiency field 2.0 on an MKT. After % bonuses this roughly means that all their knives cost 50% more IS and they have NO IS regen. NONE at all, even if they were rolling with a sakura/WM/Seraphim set. They could still spam kinves for the whole 30 seconds in which it affected them and killed someone then proceeded to keep knifing constantly until they were finally killed ~15 seconds after that. How can you justify that?

Knives just don't cost any IS, they should increase the costs BADLY cause right now MKT's can IL and kill 3 people before they need a break to get back IS. I don't mind if they can get one person, but they never stop and never run out of IS, its just line up 3 buttons on your hotbar and click on each one in a row, then go back to the start.

**Bayamos**

Just as MA can kill 3 people with little IS using state specials, MKT can do so with sneak attacks. Your portrayal of the Spy tree as imbalanced is slanted and fails to consider all aspects of the combat system. Any decent hacker can destroy even a good MKT. MA and MKT are equal attribute-wise, it comes down to the skill of the player and the strength of their builds in such fights. I've fought MAs as MKT what were a cakewalk in IL, and I've had every single one of my specials outrolled as a MKT fighting a MA with high accuracy.

MKT really isn't imbalanced. Yes it has low IS cost but it also has no free fire. The exact same goes for hacker - low IS for dmg abilities, hell look at the Code Infections and their 10 IS cost. But there is a method to this madness, which is often overlooked.

**Denary**

I think what he's reffering to also is that an MKT can punt and spam knives inside interlock, it's a proven method which can beat 9/10 people when the punt first hits then it's spam a load of high accuracy knives, against a gunman it's almost impossible then because a gunmans average accuracy is rubbish compared to MA or MKT. couple that with MKT's high defense bonus and that makes it almost impossible for gunmen.

phaydren

what i dont like is that hacker was nerfed for being too stong in interlock, because its a ranged class, and knifethrower, and the gun trees recieve no debuf or interlock penalty at all, its just astounding.

They didnt balance the game, they just made it easier for the tree that was supposed to kill assassins / mkts to be killed by said tree.

Thats where the imbalance started, they broke the chain (Mkt > Gunman > MA > Hacker > Mkt) making any of the spy classes really powerfull againts everything else.

The Leo

I have found only 2 ways to kill a spy out of IL (where you are more safe that is) and one is hacker ( a rly good one), the other is sniper with much luck. While as a gunman they just do staggering trow while I am lets say in IL with naother gunman, and I reciave about 900 dmg + beig staggered wich helps the gunman of course. The are more abilities like that and I still thjink my 3 suggestions are perfect to balance THIS particular tree. I do not talk about underpowered whatsoever tree. At least not yet.

**Garu**

The Leo wrote:

BEFORE YOU FLAME ME, READ....PLEASE.
Ok I have noticed sometihng very annoying. Ceratain abilities on spy tree (like staggering trow) do insane amount of dmg
without requiring special states AND only in 3 seconds. When I am a sniper and do snipershot it takes me at least 5 seconds + I have to activate the dmg ab in order to make as much dmg as staggering trow. I suggest at least ONE of the 3 following things to be implemented.
1.Lower the dmg to 100 dps.
or
2.make the spy work for the dmg and make the ab require a state.
or
3.Make the timer longer. And not just 4 seconds. I think 5.5 secs is perfect.

Coz now we have this: "Fatty laugher: Hohohoho I amke 1000 dmg with staggering trow. I totally pwn." with one single button.
This is not the only ability and I suggest that others underpowered spy abilities need more dmg. Gotta work devs... chapp chapp!!!

The problem is that in order for us to fire off Staggering Throw, we must be stealthed, within 6m of our target AND behind them. Once thrown, there is no guarantee of insta-death unless they are significantly lower leveled.

I usually average 1,000 damage on my Staggering Throws, but on my Sniper I average about 1,800 damage. In fact, if my target doesn't have much ballistic defense, I can kill them faster than with my Master Assassin.

By like all things, it's all about circumstance.

Renzouken · 10/28/2006 06:36:47

Bayamo wrote:

Just as MA can kill 3 people with little IS using state specials, MKT can do so with sneak attacks. Your portrayal of the Spy tree as imbalanced is slanted and fails to consider all aspects of the combat system. Any decent hacker can destroy even a good MKT. MA and MKT are equal attribute-wise, it comes down to the skill of the player and the strength of their builds in such fights. I've fought MAs as MKT what were a cakewalk in IL, and I've had every single one of my specials outrolled as a MKT fighting a MA with high accuracy.

MKT really isn't imbalanced. Yes it has low IS cost but it also has no free fire. The exact same goes for hacker - low IS for dmg abilities, hell look at the Code Infections and their 10 IS cost. But there is a method to this madness, which is often overlooked.

Quoted, for absoloute truth. I've played, PvP'd as and learned every single tree there is to play besides one since the release or CR2.0 and in my opinion the system is in greater balance now than it has ever been. I've played as a Gunman, beat Spies, played as a Martial Artist, beat Gunmen and vice versa obviously. Every class of loadout has the potential to get within the 150 accuracy range. Martial Arts - Kung Fu Style, Guns - Rifle Style, Spy - MKT Buff, Hacker also all depending on your loading of passive buffs and clothes. Every class of loadout has the potential to get near the 180 defense mark for two types of class.

Granted, some are better in and out of interlock than others, some are better at debuffing / rooting than others, some are best at dealing raw damage or doing damage over time. Each class has a particular role and specialize in a specific area, but as for saying stats are imbalanced things couldn't be further from the truth. The strength of a Spy comes from his ability to catch you off-guard, exactly the same as any sneak class (Sniper), if a Spy or Sniper manages a successful sneak attack it's game over. The strangth of an MA comes from his ability to land state specials, if a Martial Artist lands his successful Wooden Dummy Drill, Machinegun Kick it's game over.

As for his Knives costing such low IS, think it this way. How would a Martial Artist feel about having to pay IS to use Speed, Grab, Power et cetera tactics inside Interlock? Spamming specials is the only thing a Knifer, or hacker for that matter can do inside Interlock to say they should cost more IS is rediculous.

Regarding Staggering Throw, it really isn't that dangerous. You have to successfully rig up a desguise and be behind the target before even attempting to land it. Once you've used it, hit or miss, all other sneak attacks will be offline for roughly another 30 seconds. It's useless unless the target is allready in Interlock with another player, and if that's the case you're most likely allready as good as dead.

Maybe free-fire sneak attacks do need to be toned down a little, to lower the potency of the Zerg if nothing else but as for the rest of Spy leave it alone, it's fine.

As for Gunmen being so weak against MKT. It's this way because it was made this way. A challenge I put toward all the Gunmen complaining MKT is overpowered: Go Hacker for a day and hunt some MKT's. Then you'll see how overpowered Spy is.

For those saying Hacker is crap against Spy, sorry to be blunt but you gotta be a really, really lame hacker.

**Garu**

Well said, Renzouken.

The game is balanced quite well. And in that context I mean that there is no sole dominant tree anymore. The combat system is very much like rock/paper/scissors now. It's just up to you to choose the tree that best suits your style. However, in doing so you must accepts its pros and cons. No single tree is ultimate.

It's up to its master for it to be used effectively and powerfully.

Rock > Scissors > Paper > Rock...and so on and so forth.

**Pylat**

Bayamo wrote:

Just as MA can kill 3 people with little IS using state specials, MKT can do so with sneak attacks. Your portrayal of the Spy tree as imbalanced is slanted and fails to consider all aspects of the combat system. Any decent hacker can destroy even a good MKT. MA and MKT are equal attribute-wise, it comes down to the skill of the player and the strength of their builds in such fights. I've fought MAs as MKT what were a cakewalk in IL, and I've had every single one of my specials outrolled as a MKT fighting a MA with high accuracy.

MKT really isn't imbalanced. Yes it has low IS cost but it also has no free fire. The exact same goes for hacker - low IS for dmg abilities, hell look at the Code Infections and their 10 IS cost. But there is a method to this madness, which is often overlooked.

Firstly, this MKT wasn't sneak attacking, just spamming knives and only knives. And for an MA to get someone in a state they have to free fire them into it or use regular tactics whilst in IL. Both are extremely stupid when fighting an MKT. Firstly, out of IL an MKT will root you without fail so you can't get close enough to melee free fire and MKT's have a high ballistic defense so using guns is out of the question aswell. Trying to use regular tactics in IL with a knifer is also extremely stupid, MA's will have a rather low thrown defense so the MKT will spam knives while you will miss with your regular tactics while taking thousands of knives. The lesson, it is EXTREMELY hard to get an MKT into a state as an MA. So saying state required specials balance things is just plain wrong.

Secondly, I Don't mind that an MKT can Punt then finish someone off, thats what they are made for. But they can miss the Punt and still have more than enough resources left to kill the target from in IL and have a giant pile of IS left at the end.

Code infections can be removed with an anti biotic or a sweep ability from the patcher tree. If you are fighting someone who loves their DOT effects get a friendly Patcher to fix that, or take a few anti's. What can you do to stop a MKT from spamming? I told you that code infection 2.0 seems to do not a thing and they can always take anti's to remove that if they want to.

As soon as an MKT has IL'd a hacker the hacker is dead, MKT's can pwn in and out of IL quite easily, they can miss the Punt and still kill you. They can root and slow down without fail and have abilities that have shorter reuse timers than the actual debuff duration. They have such low IS costs that you never need to worry about IS ever again. Nearly everyone agrees they are overpowered, even people who used MKT in CR 1 and CR 2 admit this.

Sure you can always say "But tree X has beaten tree Y" but those are merely single incidences. Look at the tree as a whole and tell me you can honestly say its balanced. All the buffs in this game are anti MA, Gunner and Hacker. All the debuffs are anti Gunner, MA and hacker. Even thrown resistance bonuses don't work (Don't assume I'm a noob and I'm talking clothes, I tried activating Calm Mind Calm Body and its always 75 points).

In its current state MKT is very much overpowered. It does not need to be tailored to kill a certain tree, it automatically has all the attacks it needs to pwn anything and everything. It never runs out of IS, defenses against it (what few there are) are mostly bugged and don't work properly. There are a lack of moves to help defend against it and a lack of moves to debuff it.

All in all it needs a fix, the vast majority of PvPers use it, therefore it must be the best tree available at this time. As a result of this it is not unreasonable to assume it is overpowered.

**Bayamos**

Arcanoloth wrote:

As soon as an MKT has IL'd a hacker the hacker is dead, MKT's can pwn in and out of IL quite easily, they can miss the Punt and still kill you. They can root and slow down without fail and have abilities that have shorter reuse timers than the actual debuff duration. They have such low IS costs that you never need to worry about IS ever again. Nearly everyone agrees they are overpowered, even people who used MKT in CR 1 and CR 2 admit this.

LOL...

No offense but for a MKT to kill a Hacker in IL, the MKT has to be really good, and/or the hacker has to be really bad. A hacker in IL with a MKT can use Plague Zone 1 and 2 with speed, which activate OUTSIDE of IL. Due to attributes and the lack of an accuracy penalty for the out-of-IL abilities, those are guaranteed hits. Those alone can kill a MKT. A Vector can also use grab to stack DOTs on you - why? Because tactics don't influence dmg at all for DOTs, unlike any other attack in the game... they can use whatever tactic they want to ensure it hits and it'll do the same damage regardless. Code Infections are also lower level abilities, and as such suffer lesser accuracy penalties. And we're not even referencing the fact that hackers have a 100pt accuracy bonus available to them for 5 IL rounds. With the 2 plague zones and a couple code infections, any MKT will die quickly even with good resistance.

I'm not saying Hacker should be nerfed. I'm not saying MKT is weak. The point is that Hacker is SUPPOSED to beat MKT, and it does in most cases. Just like MKT is SUPPOSED to beat guns. There are obviously exceptions, but this system of mutual weaknesses and strengths is the most balanced the game has ever been.

**Denary**

couldn't have put it better myself