Is it time?

**MetaLogic**

I don't think the splinter orgs should re-merge with their main counterparts, I mean on Recursion the majority of machinist hate Cypherites and would probably not let them join the machinist org without some outcry. I don't know whether or not Zion would allow the EPNs to rejoin their ranks, probably, probably not. As for myself, I wouldn't want to rejoin the Machinist ranks, I want to stay Cypherite.

**PS10N**

No wonder the forums are full of delusion - the lies are told again and again until they are substituted for the truth in peoples' minds. Code Pulse Devices have no negative side effects at all, Bluepills can't even see them. I have yet to hear evidence, even hearsay or circumstantial, of a single act of terrorism by anyone in EPN. So, in the simplest way it can be said, people who call EPN terrorists are either deluded or liars.

**Gerik**

She said she was kidding. >_>

**Garu**

I can't tell you why other people consider EPN terrorists, I can only tell you what I believe:

Since its inception, EPN has never stood for the Truce. Its rebellious actions led to Zion having to abandon the organization in fear of Machine retalliation on its city. Its very existence jeopardized the fragile peace between man and machine. EPN acts with no regards for peace despite its claim to having the same objectives of Neo.

As machinists we view Neo's final acts as a sacrifice towards the future of all beings. His selflessness gave us a peace that neither side was familiar with and bridge towards something better and more mutual. I've seen many members of EPN spit on the Truce with my own eyes. They have acted against the system and created an unnecessary friction. That makes them terrorists. Maybe not terrorists against a people but they seek to terrorize the system they feel has emprisoned humanity.

Recently they sought to attack the very lines that power the Machines which could have jeopardized the population of the power plant as a result.

It may not be the truth you see but then again we all see what we want to which isn't always necessarily the truth itself.

**Croesis** · 09/28/2007 13:42:53

Indeed, it was meant as a friendly jibe. Nothing more.

I can admit to being wrong about CPD's. With a bit of research I now have a clearer picture of their nature. The only thing that CPD's could possibly damage is the simulation itself by their very nature of hacking into it. Hacking is often quite damaging thus, in my view, damage to the Matrix is a possibility if only temporary. CPD's were only a small part in why I believe what I believe about EPN. Garu has quite eloquently written a few other points which also maintain my belief.

**Procurator**

PS10N wrote:

No wonder the forums are full of delusion - the lies are told again and again until they are substituted for the truth in peoples' minds. Code Pulse Devices have no negative side effects at all, Bluepills can't even see them. I have yet to hear evidence, even hearsay or circumstantial, of a single act of terrorism by anyone in EPN. So, in the simplest way it can be said, people who call EPN terrorists are either deluded or liars.

You're still off-topic. Heck, I shouldn't even be replying to this.

But now you're just being silly. There's no evidence that CPDs don't harm the System. They're not as dangerous as code bombs, but they utilise serious exploits in the Matrix and aren't allowed. Plus you're ignoring my previous point: EPN are terrorists not because of how extreme they are but because they act outside the law. They're outlawed, they were disavowed by Zion, ergo they're terrorists.

And, seriously, are you IC or OOC? 'Cos your arguments seem to be full of spiteful opinion. Unless you really, truly side with EPN in real life, I can only assume you're IC... which is inappropriate for this thread.

**PS10N** · 09/28/2007 13:51:17

Acting against the system and causing friction are an act of terrorism? Better arrest all the workers who have ever gone on strike for being terrorists then. All the people exercising their constitutional rights to protest or rally? Terrorists! That Ghandi guy, he was such a terrorist! Martin Luther King Jr., Rosa Parks, Gary Kasparov, Homer Plessy, Harriet Tubman, Nelson Mandella, Mikael Gorbachev, Linda Brown, Ruby Bridges, all Terrorists by your definition.

Cypherites, the pawns of the Machines, were breaking the Truce before EPN even existed. The Machines were breaking the Truce with their first overwritten Redpill. The truce is ONE WORD "peace." Cypherites murdered innocents under Machine orders before EPN even existed, thus breaking the Truce. Machines overwrote Redpills, thus violating the Truce. Building a new city harmed no one and was entirely a peaceful act. It was used as an excuse because the Machines didn't honor the Truce from day one. The Architect is a senile, malfunctioning, obsolete program who didn't have the authority to declare the Truce over in the first place and those who follow him are delusional pawns.

"Plus you're ignoring my previous point: EPN are terrorists not because of how extreme they are but because they act outside the law. They're outlawed, they were disavowed by Zion, ergo they're terrorists."

Now you're saying that all criminals are terrorists. You could work for the Bush administration with that mind-set.

**Procurator**

The System, with a capital ess. As in: the Matrix. Harming the Matrix is against the law. There are no rights of protest within the Machines' domain. Constitutional rights? *Laughs.*

**PS10N**

What law?

**Garu**

PS10N wrote:

Acting against the system and causing friction are an act of terrorism? Better arrest all the workers who have ever gone on strike for being terrorists then. All the people exercising their constitutional rights to protest or rally? Terrorists! That Ghandi guy, he was such a terrorist! Martin Luther King Jr., Rosa Parks, Gary Kasparov, Homer Plessy, Harriet Tubman, Nelson Mandella, Mikael Gorbachev, Linda Brown, Ruby Bridges, all Terrorists by your definition.

"Plus you're ignoring my previous point: EPN are terrorists not because of how extreme they are but because they act outside the law. They're outlawed, they were disavowed by Zion, ergo they're terrorists."

Now you're saying that all criminals are terrorists. You could work for the Bush administration with that mind-set.

Yes. You may not approve of the System but its the same system keeping millions of people alive regardless of the manner in which they do so.

**ShiXinFeng**

Woah, hang on. If you guys want to debate terrorism/freedom fighter arguments, please go start a new thread.

This thread was started to get a dialog going about continuing the EPN and CYPH sub-orgs under the present and future storylines.

And I really think that, if reintegrated, their (our) thinking would come around. We could still be radicals within the parent orgs. We could continue to "consider" ourselves as being sub-orgs, but for the interest of the story and the writing, I think much more could get done without the distraction of the sub-orgs. There is nothing that they contribute to furthering the story that Zionist and Machinist couldn't do now.

**CPT_Starschwar** · 09/28/2007 14:05:16

PS10N wrote:

No wonder the forums are full of delusion - the lies are told again and again until they are substituted for the truth in peoples' minds. Code Pulse Devices have no negative side effects at all, Bluepills can't even see them. I have yet to hear evidence, even hearsay or circumstantial, of a single act of terrorism by anyone in EPN. So, in the simplest way it can be said, people who call EPN terrorists are either deluded or liars.

Machine Archive 4.2, see for yourself - EPNS used code bombs. Not to mention a recent live event where the Kid wanted to use code pulses to disable sentinels (not that it worked), and one where Shimada used them to damage the General's helipads. The EPN leadership intended to use them in a harmful manner - end of story.

Back on topic: I'm against re-merging the splinter orgs. Most Machinists (on Syntax) hate Cypherites and will have nothing to do with them. They're coming from a very different place than the Machines proper and will not mix well with the rest of the Organization.

As for EPN, they defied the Council during the Truce to go and do their own thing - it will take time for them to be accepted back, assuming that the Kid would even want that to happen.

**MatrixRefugee**

I could see the Cyphs disbanding, since their purpose is over and, if I remember correctly, wasn't Cryptos told there was little to no chance for anyone to be reinserted into the Matrix? The EPN, however, are still awaiting the return of Neo/the One, and with the Truce over, I imagine it may not be long before the search for the next One will begin.

**CPT_Starschwar**

The Cypherites serve a new purpose: sabotaging Zion operations and continuing to prevent awakenings. And after the overwriting thing, they're still probably a bit paranoid about direct Machine controll.

**Shinryu**

As far back as I remember, the original Cyph faction(s) was actually Mero.. which, outside of the whole being paid thing that is in some senses is fairly recent, makes a lot of sense especially with re-insertion not existing. So yeah, put me in the camp of it's been too long and the roads have been worn to far in to change things now.