Vinia wrote:Pyraci wrote:Vinia wrote:It's just that kind of attitude which almost guarantees Mankind's continued 'enslavement' as you put it.All this is done as part of the Machine's system of control over us. I'll also note that there is STILL no evidence showing that playing nice with the Machine is any solution or way out of this "relationship" as a whole. You have evidence and its staring at you in the face as it were. Machinists. The Machines didn't really need us to work with them they could have continued their jobs without us. It would have been more difficult for them, they could have not decided to approach us, but they did. That shows some kind of trust, perhaps not a great deal but some all the same. They approached us to work with them and it is from that foundation that we Machinists try to build a more prosperous future for both species.When has the word of a Machinist ever helped in swaying the agenda of the machine? Might I remind you of your attempt at ridding yourself of the Cypherites before the war and how well that went over? Allow me to put you in your place. You are a foot solider. That is all. When there is a job that a program can not do or the system is low on resources you are the ones that get called to do it. You are not politicians, or negotiators, or leaders. You are simply soldiers. Your word carries no weight in this war and any peace will not be brought on because of how the machine sees you. For now you are simply a needed accessory to help control and protect the system as its "war" has grown much larger then before the truce.
Pyraci wrote:Vinia wrote:It's just that kind of attitude which almost guarantees Mankind's continued 'enslavement' as you put it.All this is done as part of the Machine's system of control over us. I'll also note that there is STILL no evidence showing that playing nice with the Machine is any solution or way out of this "relationship" as a whole. You have evidence and its staring at you in the face as it were. Machinists. The Machines didn't really need us to work with them they could have continued their jobs without us. It would have been more difficult for them, they could have not decided to approach us, but they did. That shows some kind of trust, perhaps not a great deal but some all the same. They approached us to work with them and it is from that foundation that we Machinists try to build a more prosperous future for both species.
Vinia wrote:It's just that kind of attitude which almost guarantees Mankind's continued 'enslavement' as you put it.All this is done as part of the Machine's system of control over us. I'll also note that there is STILL no evidence showing that playing nice with the Machine is any solution or way out of this "relationship" as a whole.
It's just that kind of attitude which almost guarantees Mankind's continued 'enslavement' as you put it.
When has the word of a Machinist ever helped in swaying the agenda of the machine? Might I remind you of your attempt at ridding yourself of the Cypherites before the war and how well that went over?
Allow me to put you in your place. You are a foot solider. That is all. When there is a job that a program can not do or the system is low on resources you are the ones that get called to do it. You are not politicians, or negotiators, or leaders. You are simply soldiers. Your word carries no weight in this war and any peace will not be brought on because of how the machine sees you. For now you are simply a needed accessory to help control and protect the system as its "war" has grown much larger then before the truce.
Machinists will be abondoned as soon as they become inefficient or unnecessary.
Garu wrote:[...] referee [...]. It isn't an easy job but you don't get anywhere by quitting, right?Referees can only be "neutral third parties". I hope you don't refer to yourself and your party. Garu wrote:As machinists, we are trying to impress upon the Machines that equality can be achieved. Since you said you want to kiss their metal asses, Machinists clearly don't fit into that job, I fear.Neither do Zionites, nor EPNs. Also it seems that most Merovingians can't be taken into account either.As bad as it sounds, the only third party in existance, which is known to us, is the Intruder. Though, it's doubtful that he could fulfill the job of a referee.- DD
[...] referee [...]. It isn't an easy job but you don't get anywhere by quitting, right?
As machinists, we are trying to impress upon the Machines that equality can be achieved.
I was simply referring to how some of us feel like we're caught in the middle of a schoolyard fight, trying to keep both sides from tearing each other apart. There's an obvious difference between "trying to referee" and actually being one.
GoDGiVeR wrote:Machinists will be abondoned as soon as they become inefficient or unnecessary.This line of attack always gives me a little chuckle.
[...] apart from the desperate thoughts of anyone who cannot comprehend what we are doing, that the Machines will simply abandon Machinists.
There is no proof, no evidence, apart from the desperate thoughts of anyone who cannot comprehend what we are doing, that the Machines will simply abandon Machinists.
Gray already stated that our existence is not dependant on Zion, when we are no longer needed in the simulation there is no evidence to say that we will be disposed of either.
In fact while Humankind exists in the pods we shall be there, when Mankind finally manages to evolve past its violent nature and it's prejudice against the Machines, we shall be there.
The Zion way of thinking is based on Mankind's history with Mankind and as such is flawed when you apply it to Machine - Mankind.
The Machines are not parasites, they have a symbiotic relationship with the Humans in the pods, both depending on each other.
Even if the host can live perfectly well with the parasite? You'd still kill them?
You know my response to that. As long as the bluepills -- the majority of the human species -- survive, then I know that I've won. As long as the human race and the Machine race continue to exist, I have succeeded.
I am more concerned over the survival of the species than the survival of the individual, even if that individual happens to be me.
Illyria
GoDGiVeR wrote:Machinists will be abondoned as soon as they become inefficient or unnecessary. You know my response to that. As long as the bluepills -- the majority of the human species -- survive, then I know that I've won. As long as the human race and the Machine race continue to exist, I have succeeded. I am more concerned over the survival of the species than the survival of the individual, even if that individual happens to be me. Illyria
Alow me to ask a question then to better understand your position. Do you believe that is okay for the Machines to keep the human race oblivious to the condition it is in and the few that do want to know kept under wraps? Also then do you believe that it is okay for the Machine to commit genocide on all living freeborn in the name of "Protecting the System".
In short do you want the two to mearly co-exist or live together?
Illyria22 wrote:GoDGiVeR wrote:Machinists will be abondoned as soon as they become inefficient or unnecessary. You know my response to that. As long as the bluepills -- the majority of the human species -- survive, then I know that I've won. As long as the human race and the Machine race continue to exist, I have succeeded. I am more concerned over the survival of the species than the survival of the individual, even if that individual happens to be me.IllyriaAlow me to ask a question then to better understand your position. Do you believe that is okay for the Machines to keep the human race oblivious to the condition it is in and the few that do want to know kept under wraps? Also then do you believe that it is okay for the Machine to commit genocide on all living freeborn in the name of "Protecting the System".In short do you want the two to mearly co-exist or live together?
GoDGiVeR wrote:Machinists will be abondoned as soon as they become inefficient or unnecessary. You know my response to that. As long as the bluepills -- the majority of the human species -- survive, then I know that I've won. As long as the human race and the Machine race continue to exist, I have succeeded. I am more concerned over the survival of the species than the survival of the individual, even if that individual happens to be me.Illyria
As long as the human race and the Machine race continue to exist, I have succeeded.
The Machines do not depend on mankind: "There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept." [image] <- Machinist?
Is that parasite affecting that persons way of life, is it causing pain and suffering to the individual? To you and me, it probably would, but we're not the people to ask. Would you kill that person because you think they can't bear it?
Because the Machines say they can exist without Mankind doesn't mean they don't have a symbiotic relationship with us. With Humankind they live in a mutually beneficial relationship, without they would undoubtably lose their quality of life, they can exist, but not live up to their full potential so yes, they do depend on Humankind to continue living as they do now.
A similar sort of symbiosis can be found with the relationship between Ocellaris clownfish that dwell among the tentacles of Ritteri sea anemones. The fish protects the anemone from anemone-eating fish, and in turn the stinging tentacles of the anemone protect the clownfish from its predators, they can live independantly but have a better chance together. You can even say that Mankind and Technology is a Symbiotic relationship, not talking about the Machines you are fighting against, I'm talking about the Machines you depend on to live which depend on you to be fixed and maintained.
The difference is that the anemone hasn't declared war on the types of fish that don't shelter in it's tentacles.
Alow me to ask a question then to better understand your position. Do you believe that is okay for the Machines to keep the human race oblivious to the condition it is in and the few that do want to know kept under wraps? ?
Until there is a way for humanity as a whole to survive on the surface, yes. Where else could all those people live now, if not in the Matrix?
GamiSB wrote:
Also then do you believe that it is okay for the Machine to commit genocide on all living freeborn in the name of "Protecting the System".
My preference is for the fewest number of deaths, and the bluepills far outnumber the freeborn...so if it came down to the survival of the freeborn (and redpills) vs. the survival of the bluepills, then yes. Save the system and save the bluepills.
But I hope it will never come to that again.
Mere coexistence is not the answer. Two segretated societies -- one Machine, one human -- "seperate but equal" is not the answer either. Living together as part of the same society is the ultimate goal.
