First you say that there is no mention of the humans motive for bombing Zero One, and you would think that sorta info might be important.  Now you're saying that having more motive doesn't mean anything?  That doesn't sound like rational thinking to me.  In fact, it sounds like you're not even being consistent.  I've never heard of a war being started because someone accidentally pulled a trigger.  Furthermore, the Machines don't do anything on accident.  Everything they do is intentional and for a reason.  You might not think it's a good reason, but there is still a reason.

If you want me to believe that there may have been a Machine attack before the bombing of Zero One, then you need to at least explain what the motivation may have been.  If you can't do that, then you're not going to convince me, and you might as well stop trying.  You can continue insulting me and my thought process if you want to, but that's not going to convince me that you're right.

Now your reading in what you want to read in. I didn't say motive wasn't rel event I said having more of a motive wasn't. The answer to why could be exactly as you and others have hypothosise. Or it could be as complicated as aliens coming down and takeing every ones kidneys disguised in tin hats appearing to be Machine's (this is an exaggeration but i hope again you get my point). Fact remains there is nothing to prove either case did or did not happen so why remains unknown. Also you might do some research as to what one bullet being fired could and has done. WWI, Boston Massacre, allots been started with just one bullet.

If you want ideas how about this one. The Blockade actually worked. All legal trade with 01 was cut off by all governments thus dropping 01s value of its own dollar and sending it into its own mess. So they attempt to break through said blockade. The Archives don't tell us if or if not the blockade worked so who's to say it didn't right? Or it could be the same case as we saw with new Zion. The complete alienation from the rest of the world scared them into thinking something would happen and so they attacked first in fear of their own life. Just like you I can't prove any of these but they are just as likely as what you have said. I've never tried telling you I'm right, just that your wrong to claim to know something that can not be proven.

Omega0 wrote:

First you say that there is no mention of the humans motive for bombing Zero One, and you would think that sorta info might be important.  Now you're saying that having more motive doesn't mean anything?  That doesn't sound like rational thinking to me.  In fact, it sounds like you're not even being consistent.  I've never heard of a war being started because someone accidentally pulled a trigger.  Furthermore, the Machines don't do anything on accident.  Everything they do is intentional and for a reason.  You might not think it's a good reason, but there is still a reason.

If you want me to believe that there may have been a Machine attack before the bombing of Zero One, then you need to at least explain what the motivation may have been.  If you can't do that, then you're not going to convince me, and you might as well stop trying.  You can continue insulting me and my thought process if you want to, but that's not going to convince me that you're right.

Now your reading in what you want to read in. I didn't say motive wasn't rel event I said having more of a motive wasn't. The answer to why could be exactly as you and others have hypothosise. Or it could be as complicated as aliens coming down and takeing every ones kidneys disguised in tin hats appearing to be Machine's (this is an exaggeration but i hope again you get my point). Fact remains there is nothing to prove either case did or did not happen so why remains unknown. Also you might do some research as to what one bullet being fired could and has done. WWI, Boston Massacre, allots been started with just one bullet.

If you want ideas how about this one. The Blockade actually worked. All legal trade with 01 was cut off by all governments thus dropping 01s value of its own dollar and sending it into its own mess. So they attempt to break through said blockade. The Archives don't tell us if or if not the blockade worked so who's to say it didn't right? Or it could be the same case as we saw with new Zion. The complete alienation from the rest of the world scared them into thinking something would happen and so they attacked first in fear of their own life. Just like you I can't prove any of these but they are just as likely as what you have said. I've never tried telling you I'm right, just that your wrong to claim to know something that can not be proven.

First of all, considering that the archive mentioned the humans' credit rating falling, I think it would have also mentioned the exact same thing happening to Zero One.  Secondly, even if the blockade did work, so what?  If Zero One's currency started falling, that wouldn't threaten their survival.  As long as they have an abundant energy source, and nobody is attacking them, they'll be just fine.  They don't need money to buy food, like humans do.  I don't accept this as a plausible motive for the Machines starting a war with their creators.  Also, I've never claimed to know something that cannot be proven.  I already told you that there is a difference between knowing and believing.  You still fail to convince me that my beliefs are wrong, because the motivation for the humans starting a war makes a lot more sense to me than the motivation you present for the Machines starting the war.  Oh, and just FYI, I'm not the only Zionite who believes that the humans started the war.

You would think it would mention a lot of things but it still doesn't. Say a declaration of war of instance? Actually I'd say that would be the most important piece of information the archive could have given us really. Obviously 01 was just as dependent on currency as we are. Why else go to the trouble of creating your own and then takeing control of the world's money markets hmm? Which begs the question why create money in the first place if they had no need for it to begin with? Obviously they had some need for it and thus would be affected by that currency losing value and the inability to export and import goods so sorry my idea holds up about as good as yours does really.

And again your acceptance of said assumptions are irrelevant. It nether proves nor disproves what did or did not happen. Go ahead and believe that all humans attacked first. Ignore the fact that you have about as much proof for that as you do about Santa or the tooth fairy being real so why not. So your not the only ignorant Zion that can't face the facts (or lack of) just proves the machines point in stating Zion is full or irrational beings that are just lambs to the slaughter walking blindly with heads held high.

If anything all this just proves that as far as historical documents go. The Zion archives are the worst. Leaving everything up for interpretation rather then actual facts.

Omega0 wrote:

First of all, considering that the archive mentioned the humans' credit rating falling, I think it would have also mentioned the exact same thing happening to Zero One.  Secondly, even if the blockade did work, so what?  If Zero One's currency started falling, that wouldn't threaten their survival.  As long as they have an abundant energy source, and nobody is attacking them, they'll be just fine.  They don't need money to buy food, like humans do.  I don't accept this as a plausible motive for the Machines starting a war with their creators.  Also, I've never claimed to know something that cannot be proven.  I already told you that there is a difference between knowing and believing.  You still fail to convince me that my beliefs are wrong, because the motivation for the humans starting a war makes a lot more sense to me than the motivation you present for the Machines starting the war.  Oh, and just FYI, I'm not the only Zionite who believes that the humans started the war.

You would think it would mention a lot of things but it still doesn't. Say a declaration of war of instance? Actually I'd say that would be the most important piece of information the archive could have given us really. Obviously 01 was just as dependent on currency as we are. Why else go to the trouble of creating your own and then takeing control of the world's money markets hmm? Which begs the question why create money in the first place if they had no need for it to begin with? Obviously they had some need for it and thus would be affected by that currency losing value and the inability to export and import goods so sorry my idea holds up about as good as yours does really.

And again your acceptance of said assumptions are irrelevant. It nether proves nor disproves what did or did not happen. Go ahead and believe that all humans attacked first. Ignore the fact that you have about as much proof for that as you do about Santa or the tooth fairy being real so why not. So your not the only ignorant Zion that can't face the facts (or lack of) just proves the machines point in stating Zion is full or irrational beings that are just lambs to the slaughter walking blindly with heads held high.

If anything all this just proves that as far as historical documents go. The Zion archives are the worst. Leaving everything up for interpretation rather then actual facts.

No, it's not obvious that Zero One was just as dependent on currency as we are.  At B166-ER's murder trial, the prosecution argued for an owner's right to destroy property, remember?  They were originally considered property.  Do you think property would have currency?  I don't.  And yet, they still survived.  Furthermore, once they had currency, did you ever stop to think about what they were spending it on?  Whatever it was, it definitely wasn't sunlight.  Other than that, what could possibly be essential to their survival?  Sorry, your idea does not hold up about as good as mine.

And I see you've decided to continue with the personal attacks.  That's fine.  It doesn't help your argument.  All it does is show a lack of maturity.

No, it's not obvious that Zero One was just as dependent on currency as we are.  At B166-ER's murder trial, the prosecution argued for an owner's right to destroy property, remember?  They were originally considered property.  Do you think property would have currency?  I don't.  And yet, they still survived.  Furthermore, once they had currency, did you ever stop to think about what they were spending it on?  Whatever it was, it definitely wasn't sunlight.  Other than that, what could possibly be essential to their survival?  Sorry, your idea does not hold up about as good as mine.

And I see you've decided to continue with the personal attacks.  That's fine.  It doesn't help your argument.  All it does is show a lack of maturity.

Did the African American have currency when he was in bondage and considered property? Did our ancestors have currency when they became apart of the world? No they didn't. No living being that has currency now was born with it. They created and made it themselves and became dependent on it themselves as well. We humans survived fine without it just like the Machines did when they were just property. But things change and when you decided to run off and become your own Nation you fall in line with all the other dependencies other nations have. As to what they spent it on no idea but obviously they bought a bit of land and still had a purpose for currency as they kept it. Whens the last time the Machines let anything without purpose remain, hmm? If the Machines had no need for currancy why bother selling goods to other nations. Why not just hand them over. Also about that sunlight thing. Operation Dark Storm, I still see Machines working fine and dandy even without there supposed energy source. You think sunlight was all they needed to survive? But its quiet apparent that your still just going to close your mind off to whatever I say and keep on remaining ignorant to the facts. Fine, enjoy being naive and keep pretending you know the truth.

Omega0 wrote:

No, it's not obvious that Zero One was just as dependent on currency as we are.  At B166-ER's murder trial, the prosecution argued for an owner's right to destroy property, remember?  They were originally considered property.  Do you think property would have currency?  I don't.  And yet, they still survived.  Furthermore, once they had currency, did you ever stop to think about what they were spending it on?  Whatever it was, it definitely wasn't sunlight.  Other than that, what could possibly be essential to their survival?  Sorry, your idea does not hold up about as good as mine.

And I see you've decided to continue with the personal attacks.  That's fine.  It doesn't help your argument.  All it does is show a lack of maturity.

Did the African American have currency when he was in bondage and considered property? Did our ancestors have currency when they became apart of the world? No they didn't. No living being that has currency now was born with it. They created and made it themselves and became dependent on it themselves as well. We humans survived fine without it just like the Machines did when they were just property. But things change and when you decided to run off and become your own Nation you fall in line with all the other dependencies other nations have. As to what they spent it on no idea but obviously they bought a bit of land and still had a purpose for currency as they kept it. Whens the last time the Machines let anything without purpose remain, hmm? If the Machines had no need for currancy why bother selling goods to other nations. Why not just hand them over. Also about that sunlight thing. Operation Dark Storm, I still see Machines working fine and dandy even without there supposed energy source. You think sunlight was all they needed to survive? But its quiet apparent that your still just going to close your mind off to whatever I say and keep on remaining ignorant to the facts. Fine, enjoy being naive and keep pretending you know the truth.

I took another look, and I'm pretty sure the Machines were spending their currency on "the creation of new and better AI."  However, that's hardly a necessity.  Advancement is not the same as survival.  Even if they couldn't advance their technology, they would still live.  Also, the fact that they were working just fine right after Operation Dark Storm doesn't mean anything.  Newsflash: Energy can be stored!  But they knew that their energy supply wouldn't last long without sunlight.  If you think that the Machines needed something other than an energy source to survive, then name it.

Yeah there EVOLUTION isn't important at all and not worth spending anything on. Right. The Machines' don't evolve like humans do, theirs is a technological evolution, while they maybe able to learn certain hings and adapt to situations there will come a point where there memory will be full so the need to better themselves is a necessity should they not want to be stuck in the Machine stoneage and able to keep up with the evolution of everything around them.

And yes its completely realistic that the Machines saw Dark Storm coming and stored up enough to conquer the world and go on for another six cycles. That makes perfect sense.

As for what I can't name another energy source but I'm sure once I did you'd just write it off as impossible and close your mind off again but lets look at another controversy anyway. Humans as energy produces barely enough to keep the Matrix running and hardly anything to supply an entire city as discovered by the Merovingian and confirmed by many exiles who specialize in the fields relating to this. Obviously something else is being used.

Omega0 wrote:

I took another look, and I'm pretty sure the Machines were spending their currency on "the creation of new and better AI."  However, that's hardly a necessity.  Advancement is not the same as survival.  Even if they couldn't advance their technology, they would still live.  Also, the fact that they were working just fine right after Operation Dark Storm doesn't mean anything.  Newsflash: Energy can be stored!  But they knew that their energy supply wouldn't last long without sunlight.  If you think that the Machines needed something other than an energy source to survive, then name it.

Yeah there EVOLUTION isn't important at all and not worth spending anything on. Right. The Machines' don't evolve like humans do, theirs is a technological evolution, while they maybe able to learn certain hings and adapt to situations there will come a point where there memory will be full so the need to better themselves is a necessity should they not want to be stuck in the Machine stoneage and able to keep up with the evolution of everything around them.

And yes its completely realistic that the Machines saw Dark Storm coming and stored up enough to conquer the world and go on for another six cycles. That makes perfect sense.

As for what I can't name another energy source but I'm sure once I did you'd just write it off as impossible and close your mind off again but lets look at another controversy anyway. Humans as energy produces barely enough to keep the Matrix running and hardly anything to supply an entire city as discovered by the Merovingian and confirmed by many exiles who specialize in the fields relating to this. Obviously something else is being used.

I didn't say or imply that the Machines saw Dark Storm coming and stored enough energy to go on for another six cycles.  All I was saying is that they stored enough energy to defeat the humans, which, from the looks of things, didn't take that long.

Also, I wasn't asking you to name another energy source, I was asking you to name something other than energy that the Machines need to survive.

By the way, a new idea just came to me.  Let's say that the naval blockade completely worked, the Machines were completely isolated, and there was absolutely no trade between them and the humans.  Let's also say that the humans were not attacking the Machines.  As far as the Machines were concerned, it was like the humans no longer existed.  But they still had sunlight, their primary energy source.  Well, after the Machines defeated the humans, they obviously weren't trading with them at that time either.  The only real change to the Machines' way of life was that they were using something else as their primary energy source.  And we all know that they had no problem surviving at that point.  So... how is this any different from the situation right after the blockade?

GamiSB wrote:

I didn't say or imply that the Machines saw Dark Storm coming and stored enough energy to go on for another six cycles.  All I was saying is that they stored enough energy to defeat the humans, which, from the looks of things, didn't take that long.

Also, I wasn't asking you to name another energy source, I was asking you to name something other than energy that the Machines need to survive.

By the way, a new idea just came to me.  Let's say that the naval blockade completely worked, the Machines were completely isolated, and there was absolutely no trade between them and the humans.  Let's also say that the humans were not attacking the Machines.  As far as the Machines were concerned, it was like the humans no longer existed.  But they still had sunlight, their primary energy source.  Well, after the Machines defeated the humans, they obviously weren't trading with them at that time either.  The only real change to the Machines' way of life was that they were using something else as their primary energy source.  And we all know that they had no problem surviving at that point.  So... how is this any different from the situation right after the blockade?

Ignoring your interpretation of how much time it took despite none it not being given once, the answer is simple. The same things we really need to survive. Endowed with the spirit of man and made in his image and all that. The Machines were programed to be dependent on what we are. They need everything  they plug themselves into to survive. While yes some of these things can be removed and the others need to be improved, currency, sunlight, themselves, etc. these were things they at one point were dependent on and managed to turn around in time for there society to not crumble when they become obsolete or unobtainable.

Which brings me to my next point. You are comparing two completely different situations. One in which everything is (for lack of a better word) "peaceful" as in no ones shooting each other and the end of a war. After the Machines took over what need do they have for trade when they can simply take now. Which brings us to a motive. The machines in order to continue their existence and evolution decided that once man wanted to divide the world they would go and take what they could not trade for. In short survival is the Machines motive as much as greedy is the humans. Both were being kept from the other so in the end it is still everyone's guess as to who finally broke down and couldn't take it anymore.

And just for both our reminders this is all pointless and irrelevant. We could theorize all day, create the perfect fitting pieces for the puzzle but in the end we still can not prove that they are the pieces that fit into the missing slots. When and why, while we may be able to theorize them, can never be proven simply by ones theory. Just as motive is not enough to convict a criminal neither is it enough to prove who started a war.

Also, I wasn't asking you to name another energy source, I was asking you to name something other than energy that the Machines need to survive.

And if EPN and Zion "manned" up as you say and said "So we did start the war..." ...would you then cease to support the machines? Fear is a powerful tool used in the wrong hands, lyr. I suggest you think long and hard about that.


Neo Bless You

I would continue to support the Machines whether you all admitted it or not.  But it would be a refreshing change from Zion/EPN constantly playing the innocent, noble victim role.  You know, the role that excuses them from any and all responsibility for whatever they do?

Illyria 

Reposco wrote:

And if EPN and Zion "manned" up as you say and said "So we did start the war..." ...would you then cease to support the machines? Fear is a powerful tool used in the wrong hands, lyr. I suggest you think long and hard about that.


Neo Bless You

 

I would continue to support the Machines whether you all admitted it or not.  But it would be a refreshing change from Zion/EPN constantly playing the innocent, noble victim role.  You know, the role that excuses them from any and all responsibility for whatever they do?

 

Illyria 

 

Omega0 wrote:

Also, I wasn't asking you to name another energy source, I was asking you to name something other than energy that the Machines need to survive.

Resources. Like minerals and ore and stuff like that. They needed it, but couldn't trade for it, so they "took" it.

Didn't they already have those?  I don't think they would be able to make superior technology, like the Versatran from the advertisement, if they didn't have resources.

GamiSB wrote:

Ignoring your interpretation of how much time it took despite none it not being given once, the answer is simple. The same things we really need to survive. Endowed with the spirit of man and made in his image and all that. The Machines were programed to be dependent on what we are.

That's probably the dumbest thing you have said so far.  The only things that humans really need to survive are food and shelter.  The Machines don't need either of those.  The only thing they really need to survive is an abundant source of energy.  Before Zero One was formed, back when the Machines were considered property, they didn't seem to be advancing or evolving at all.  But that lack of evolution obviously did not threaten their existence.

Steelle wrote:

Omega0 wrote:

Also, I wasn't asking you to name another energy source, I was asking you to name something other than energy that the Machines need to survive.

Resources. Like minerals and ore and stuff like that. They needed it, but couldn't trade for it, so they "took" it.

Didn't they already have those?  I don't think they would be able to make superior technology, like the Versatran from the advertisement, if they didn't have resources.

GamiSB wrote:

Ignoring your interpretation of how much time it took despite none it not being given once, the answer is simple. The same things we really need to survive. Endowed with the spirit of man and made in his image and all that. The Machines were programed to be dependent on what we are.

That's probably the dumbest thing you have said so far.  The only things that humans really need to survive are food and shelter.  The Machines don't need either of those.  The only thing they really need to survive is an abundant source of energy.  Before Zero One was formed, back when the Machines were considered property, they didn't seem to be advancing or evolving at all.  But that lack of evolution obviously did not threaten their existence.

Machines need materials in order to be created. Yes, they were evolving, most notably their self-realization period with the pinnacle being B1993R, then once they were exiled, they created their own nation in which they became even more increasingly efficient due to their lack of reliability on mankind, and it pretty much grew from there. Men would probably trade with them because it would probably cost a lot less for automated production, automated production in which the Machines excelled at, and in return resources/currency to buy resources with in order to expand their city/country. Machines need shelter, they are not invincible. If anything, their shelter would be their own shell. Humans need more exterior shelter due to be bio-organic unlike the Machines.

Their existance was threatened when B1993R acted in self-defense, merely because he wanted to live, like any sentient being. Their knowledge and intelligence was evolving, and it got to the point where Humans felt threatened, like the Machines would find themselves in a position where human-kind would be slowing them down. Human speculation and ignorance led to their downfall.