Can Programs lie?

**MetaLogic**

Since programs such as The Oracle or The Architect are just simply codes that are made to look human for our convenience, and that's pretty much the only human quality that they have. I wonder if programs inside The Matrix can lie. I mean they possess the capability of telling someone something that they know is not true?

Personally I have a hard time believing a program can lie, because lying is a human capability, and really the only reason the programs appear human to us, is for interaction purpose. What do you guys think?

Siros7

AFAIK the programs we see in the matrix have a good enough AI to be able to lie. They are able to make their own decisions (programs going into exile being a good example of it) so I don't see why they wouldn't be able to lie.

**zeroone506**

Of course programs can lie. Now, I'm not so dead sure that I remember a case like this in the movies, but in MxO, there have been lots of cases like this.

I actually don't understand this "lying is human capability" talk. I guess even some primitive AI (whether it exists or not) can be theoretically taught to follow a purpose and distinguish between things helping or hindering this purpose (this purpose can be directed at oneself or on something different), to understand that giving others information can influence the success, and to tell things that help them.

Maybe some more primitive program doesn't have the abilities to tell anything other but what they know as true, but come on - the AI in the Matrix universe is anything but primitive, it's actually very highly developed.

'Course programs can lie.

RainKingX

MetaLogic wrote:

Since programs such as The Oracle or The Architect are just simply codes that are made to look human for our convenience, and that's pretty much the only human quality that they have. I wonder if programs inside The Matrix can lie. I mean they possess the capability of telling someone something that they know is not true?

Personally I have a hard time believing a program can lie, because lying is a human capability, and really the only reason the programs appear human to us, is for interaction purpose. What do you guys think?

Nah, programs don't lie, they're just misinterpreted sometimes, grossly.

**Illyria22**

Exiles definitely can. Machine programs still connected to the Source aren't so good at it.

Illyria

Sent

When the truce began, the Architect seemed to imply that he does not lie, or is even incapable of it. However, this actually makes no sense at all. Clearly the machines seem to have some sense of what we call honor, pride or dignity, both in what the Architect said, and earlier when Deus Ex Machina said to Neo, "We don't need you!" Theoretically, the machines would experience no negative emotional response to the idea of lying. Even if they as a race had been programmed not to lie to humans, clearly they have gained access to their own programming and changed it, breaking free from their slavery to humans.

Still, the machines would not be able to achieve their objectives without lying and the same is true for anyone else, it is simply a matter of how aware you are of what you do. The machines engaged in warfare, and as Sung Tzu explained warfare is synomous with deceit. Also, I clearly remember being instructed to lie by a machine handler while doing machine archive missions. So I think that makes the "machines don't lie" theory moot.

**zeroone506**

Sent wrote:

Also, I clearly remember being instructed to lie by a machine handler while doing machine archive missions. So I think that makes the "machines don't lie" theory moot.

You mean that one when you're supposed to kill a bluepill and blame it on the Cypherites when reporting to Zionite recruiters?

Well, one could definitely argue that they didn't lie themselves but instructed you to, but except they have some code that prevents them from lying (the Jim-Carrey-virus), that doesn't seem to mean much.

(Oh, by the way - the idea isn't that far-fetched. You know the Sisters of Fate? One of their members, Petal, wants revenge, but her code prevents her from harming her sisters. So she recruits redpills to do the killing for here.)

To be honest, it makes me think - does anyone really remember when actual Machine programs were lying? When the suspicious Cryptos recording was found, Gray aborted contact and then avoided talking about the subject after that. Maybe... maybe they really can't lie?

Sent

So you're saying that if someone asked the machines whether they killed the bluepill, they would admit that they were involved because they have no choice but to tell the truth? Sorry, I don't buy it.

The most effective lies are half-lies, but they are still lies. If you hire agents to lie for you and then deny involvement, that is still a lie. Your belief "machines do not lie" is contradicted by the evidence, and simple reasoning on their activities.

WGAnubis1

If they cant lie, they use really long words and speak in riddles to confuse the hell out of the person and them missunderstanding what was said to begin with.

Sent

^There you have it my friend. Have you ever payed close attention to lawyer-speak? It's designed to confuse the hell out of you so that the lie becomes the truth and the truth becomes the lie. Similarly the machines talk a good game but are essentially no morally different from humans.

**zeroone506**

Sent wrote:

So you're saying that if someone asked the machines whether they killed the bluepill, they would admit that they were involved because they have no choice but to tell the truth? Sorry, I don't buy it.

The most effective lies are half-lies, but they are still lies. If you hire agents to lie for you and then deny involvement, that is still a lie. Your belief "machines do not lie" is contradicted by the evidence, and simple reasoning on their activities.

I didn't "say" anything, it was merely a theory, a suggestion. Like... "what if it's really the case?"

In that particular case, I sort of doubt (not exclude) that Zion would ask again, but if they did, the Machines might really start beating around the bush. However, I also believe they would deny it, the preceding is only in accordance with this weak assumption.

Iris92

Exiles have self-preservation at heart. Programs that maintain I can only assume follow their directives. They could perhaps see it as telling part of the truth, or misinformation. Whatever helps them attain the directive.

Sent

I believe the question was, "Can Programs Lie?"

Here Iris92 you are on a slippery slope at the depths of human psychology. If someone lies and sees it as telling the truth or misinformation, aren't they still lying since at some level of their awareness they know it is not true? If it is your job to do whatever someone higher up tells you and one of those things is to lie, you still, as an individual, lied, and by extension so did the someone higher up whom you represent.

If you did not know that your statements were untrue, then you did not lie, but the superior still did by getting you to do it in their behalf. The only question really is, can a program attempt to convince someone that something which it knows not to be true is actually true? There are more ways to lie than just making 100% false direct statements. Besides the fact that in the context of MxO I have direct experience with machines practicing deceit, it is not possible to achieve any large-scale objectives without using some degree of deceit on a regular basis. If you have been deceived by the machines, then one or more individual programs deceived you either directly or by using human representatives.

**Illyria22**

The Merovingian implied that the Machines can't lie...but who knows, he might have been lying. SMILEY

Illyria

Sent

I consent that very possibly the machines may even somehow believe that they do not lie, but apparently even an intellectually superior race can be self-deluded. At any rate, I would call it a story inconsistency to have a race of beings who wage war and survive yet claim to be incapable of deceit.

I'll say it again- a machine told me to lie for it/him!