NPC Balance Thread

HCFrog

Renesis13B wrote:
By that logic as long as we can still win the fight then everything is balanced. I can fight 5 level 48s and win every fight but ill have to hyperjump away and heal after every fight. I dont see that as balance. It makes fighting tedious and boring. With the old system is was a rush taking on 10 npcs 5+ levels higher than you. With this new system that will never happen.

Perhaps I should be clearer. By the same outcome, I mean you won't have to hyperjump away and heal between interlocking each opponent. You should be able to take on about the same number of enemies, same level, with about the same amount of difficulty as you could before. Please note, our PvE balance is not yet complete, so the balance you're seeing on the test server right now is not our final target.

I have to ask... you're not saying you could solo 10 purple cons and win before?

Fade2blacK

HCFrog wrote:

I have to ask... you're not saying you could solo 10 purple cons and win before?

Yes we could.I've cleaned the last Pandora's box mission ( the one with a lot of simulacra, where you must kill the Antideluvian ) 2 times. with force multiplier with max deflection and a decent amount of dodge ranged clothing, and with aikido gm with max deflection and dodge and a bunch of antibiotics. It took as much as the whole mission time though; the first times i did the mission it just timed out before i killed all the sims.

Anyway it was just unbalanced! Yes I felt powerful, but hey, I could see by myself that there was something terribly wrong with soloing that mission. It's the way of the old combat. If you have high tactics, you own them even if you do 1 dmg, if you have low tactic you lose an there is nothing you can do. If you have enough deflection you deflect them 19 over 20.if you have enough dodge there is no way for them to hit you.

Fade2blacK · 02/13/2006 06:52:00

errata corrige.
I soloed that mission with duelist not with aikido. That was because in that way I could keep my target stunned permanently, I had an additional +5 rct from my armor piercing Lancet Pistol, the squad leader shirt gave me rct and dodge ranged, and i was wearing that +5 mct +10 dodge pants.oh I was also wearing the +10 dodge ranged +20 viral resistence coat.

Anyway i think that we should get half of our expected resistence from awakened. (100 at level 50), and that armored clothing should only be only on 3 or four kind of clothes, instead of every kind. Geez i've seen ranged and melee absorbing program launchers. If we get half our resistences from awakened we will not need to wear +36 melee absorbing on every clothing piece just to get the amount we are supposed to have to absorb at least something.

Message Edited by Fade2blacK on 02-13-200606:52 AM

Kivo

HCFrog wrote:

Renesis13B wrote:
By that logic as long as we can still win the fight then everything is balanced. I can fight 5 level 48s and win every fight but ill have to hyperjump away and heal after every fight. I dont see that as balance. It makes fighting tedious and boring. With the old system is was a rush taking on 10 npcs 5+ levels higher than you. With this new system that will never happen.

Perhaps I should be clearer. By the same outcome, I mean you won't have to hyperjump away and heal between interlocking each opponent. You should be able to take on about the same number of enemies, same level, with about the same amount of difficulty as you could before. Please note, our PvE balance is not yet complete, so the balance you're seeing on the test server right now is not our final target.

I have to ask... you're not saying you could solo 10 purple cons and win before?

Yep, easily. I've soloed Box 3, Soloed the Box 4 missions, and with Renesis' help up there we killed half of Box 4, just the two of us. (Force Multiplier/Upgrade Master is very powerful)

**Tytanya_MxO**

I certainly wouldn't expect its reasonable to be able to challenge 10 purples in a combat system, the FM tree was heavily overpowered and has been heavily overused by players to capitalise on deficiencies in NPC ai.

Referring back to the original manual it suggests we should be able to handle a couple of npc or players our own level with a bit of strategy/skill, we should be able to handle a group of 3or4 a level below us and possibly 5/6 a level below that - currently 5/6 npc's or players 20+levels below would annihilate a level 50 with any of the major builds and that is a real concern.....i would suggest a reasonable balance should ensure anyone more than 6 levels below you should be zero threat regardless of their number...

Certainly I favor resistances being added at least inpart to awakened (the value/effect of levelling feels significantly less under current CR2.0 and that has consequences to the incentive to level).

**Renesis13B**

As everyone has mentioned it was possible to take on those high levels solo or with a team of 2 with the right builds. The hardest part was blocking the hacks. If one landed you had to run to a safe spot but the free fire wasnt bad with all the dr clothing and ct buffs.

Since our teams are limited to only 6 people I cant imagine trying to take on those pbox 4 missions right now with the current patch. With the amount of free fire we are getting hit with now it doesnt matter if its 10 damage or 500 a full team wouldnt last long. Has anybody actually tried doing the pbox missions yet?

Kivo

On the first day QA was fully stabilized, myself and about 12-15 other level 50 Vectorians attempted to do a PBox 4. We got slaughtered repeatedly. Each shot from the angels did 1000+ damage. The way their AI is, they all concentrate fire on the same close target, then move onto the next. No one can live through 10+ simultanious shots doing 1000+ damage a piece.

HCFrog · 02/13/2006 23:25:25

Yeah, the Pandora's Box NPCs haven't been totally balanced, they're definitely not ready for primetime yet. Although they have been balanced more than what you saw - the problem was, to make them challenging enough under the old system, we had to add a ton of damage to their output. I think the main boss has like +750 melee, +500 ranged or something like that. Under the new system, that gets translated into 750 DPS... yikes...

Oh, and I thought many of you might like to hear that we spent today reworking the way resistances work. No more "magic 200" number.

Instead, your level will provide you most of the resistance you need. A level 50 player with 200 resistance from their clothing will now, instead of just having just met their target, will actually be into the bonus zone and be mitigating some amount of damage, around 125ish (for a level 50) will get you taking normal damage, while a player running around buck naked will take about a third more damage than default... not so much more that you can't beat up on some easier enemies without armored clothing.

This should hopefully allow for some cool outfits of clothing, where you can (for example) focus on resisting viral damage while still having a pretty good defense against ballistic damage at the same time. It will hopefully also lose the feeling of you struggling to create a wardrobe with enough resistances, and make it more like you can kick butt on your own but these things will help you elevate the butt kicking to a higher level.

The system should be implemented pretty soon... I'll let you know when it's ready to look at.

Other news, I checked through the database and looked at how many versions of clothing have armored and shielded versions. It turns out that at least 95% of them do. So for any shirt you want to wear, there's a 95% chance that there is also a +5%, +15%, +22%, +20%, +33%, +36% version of it out there (or whatever those breakdowns are SMILEY

) My next step is to check through the loot tables (what fun) to make sure they're all actually dropping.

So anyhow... we're doing what we can to restore fashion to its rightful place in the Matrix while still making it worthwhile to collect good stuff SMILEY

Message Edited by HCFrog on 02-13-200611:25 PM

**Shadow-SK**

HCFrog wrote:
Yeah, the Pandora's Box NPCs haven't been totally balanced, they're definitely not ready for primetime yet. Although they have been balanced more than what you saw - the problem was, to make them challenging enough under the old system, we had to add a ton of damage to their output. I think the main boss has like +750 melee, +500 ranged or something like that. Under the new system, that gets translated into 750 DPS... yikes...

Oh, and I thought many of you might like to hear that we spent today reworking the way resistances work. No more "magic 200" number.

Instead, your level will provide you most of the resistance you need. A level 50 player with 200 resistance from their clothing will now, instead of just having just met their target, will actually be into the bonus zone and be mitigating some amount of damage, around 125ish (for a level 50) will get you taking normal damage, while a player running around buck naked will take about a third more damage than default... not so much more that you can't beat up on some easier enemies without armored clothing.

This should hopefully allow for some cool outfits of clothing, where you can (for example) focus on resisting viral damage while still having a pretty good defense against ballistic damage at the same time. It will hopefully also lose the feeling of you struggling to create a wardrobe with enough resistances, and make it more like you can kick butt on your own but these things will help you elevate the butt kicking to a higher level.

The system should be implemented pretty soon... I'll let you know when it's ready to look at.

Other news, I checked through the database and looked at how many versions of clothing have armored and shielded versions. It turns out that at least 95% of them do. So for any shirt you want to wear, there's a 95% chance that there is also a +5%, +15%, +22%, +20%, +33%, +36% version of it out there (or whatever those breakdowns are ) My next step is to check through the loot tables (what fun) to make sure they're all actually dropping.

So anyhow... we're doing what we can to restore fashion to its rightful place in the Matrix while still making it worthwhile to collect good stuff
Message Edited by HCFrog on 02-13-200611:25 PM

Frog, you are teh pwn3r. SMILEY

Sounds awesome, and can't wait to see it on the EP Server. Thanks Frog!

Miggesch · 02/14/2006 00:29:24

Well I know you are talking about the NPCs actually coming OUT OF the box. But here's another example. I did the ver first mission of Arc 1 solo the other day. The one in International with all the lvl 35 security guards that all used to pull you into multi interlock which of course they now can't anymore.

Maybe this IS what you guys are shooting for. But I don't feel that as a lvl 50 against 3 lvl 35 security guards I should have to pop Health pills. Cause then that makes me think what happens if I ever encounter 3 lvl 50 NPCs in one of my missions. But maybe you guys want to completely discourage solo missioning - I don't know.

I was a SMG Spec./Kung Fu mix and my free fire did about 170 damage to the NPCs - when they hit me with their free fire it took about 140 from me - that's only 30 pts of damage less for a 15 lvl difference between me and the NPCs.

And of course there's 3 of them - with their 2 to 5 second timers and they hit me about every other shot. So I lose about 300-400 health every couple of seconds.... :-/

Message Edited by Miggesch on 02-14-200609:29 AM

**PBlade**

HCFrog wrote:
Yeah, the Pandora's Box NPCs haven't been totally balanced, they're definitely not ready for primetime yet. Although they have been balanced more than what you saw - the problem was, to make them challenging enough under the old system, we had to add a ton of damage to their output. I think the main boss has like +750 melee, +500 ranged or something like that. Under the new system, that gets translated into 750 DPS... yikes...

Oh, and I thought many of you might like to hear that we spent today reworking the way resistances work. No more "magic 200" number.

Instead, your level will provide you most of the resistance you need. A level 50 player with 200 resistance from their clothing will now, instead of just having just met their target, will actually be into the bonus zone and be mitigating some amount of damage, around 125ish (for a level 50) will get you taking normal damage, while a player running around buck naked will take about a third more damage than default... not so much more that you can't beat up on some easier enemies without armored clothing.

This should hopefully allow for some cool outfits of clothing, where you can (for example) focus on resisting viral damage while still having a pretty good defense against ballistic damage at the same time. It will hopefully also lose the feeling of you struggling to create a wardrobe with enough resistances, and make it more like you can kick butt on your own but these things will help you elevate the butt kicking to a higher level.

The system should be implemented pretty soon... I'll let you know when it's ready to look at.

Other news, I checked through the database and looked at how many versions of clothing have armored and shielded versions. It turns out that at least 95% of them do. So for any shirt you want to wear, there's a 95% chance that there is also a +5%, +15%, +22%, +20%, +33%, +36% version of it out there (or whatever those breakdowns are ) My next step is to check through the loot tables (what fun) to make sure they're all actually dropping.

So anyhow... we're doing what we can to restore fashion to its rightful place in the Matrix while still making it worthwhile to collect good stuff
Message Edited by HCFrog on 02-13-200611:25 PM

Well that sounds.....very good!

I look forward to it.

**Symmetric**

Thank you, HCFrog!

/bow

finaltom

I enjoy the pvp, and I do see the difference in fighting with skill in stead of brawn. But the balencing of the npc's need alot more work. I am a leval 15, and actually beat a leval 18 in a duel. When it comes to the amount of time it takes to fight an npc on the test server compared to the live server. I would have to say that it is doubled. when I go and fight like 8 blue npc's. when I am finished killing the last one there is only two left around to loot because it take to long.

It is almost like you should keep the npc's at the same balence as on the live server. Its almost like the higher levals are easier then the lower leval npc's(meanin the difference between green and yellow.).

I think it would be less complicated in our part while in combat for you to have the abilities to stay at what skill you are useing (such as kung fu or aikido or karate) instead of changeing to self defence and then haveing to change back to your skill. Yes the way you have it now is more proper, but it is more a big difference in combat. me being a level 15, and I don't have any special abilities yet for aikido but it is between night and day when i am fighting.

You all are on the right path but as i see it you still have alot of work to do when it come to the balenceing, so take your time and don't rush this implement to fast or it will hurt more then help. I have heard alot of complaints about the new CR2.0.

Myself, think it will be a good implement after it is adjusted ALOT. Keep up the good work!!!!

FINALTOM

**Tytanya_MxO**

HCFrog wrote:
Yeah, the Pandora's Box NPCs haven't been totally balanced, they're definitely not ready for primetime yet. Although they have been balanced more than what you saw - the problem was, to make them challenging enough under the old system, we had to add a ton of damage to their output. I think the main boss has like +750 melee, +500 ranged or something like that. Under the new system, that gets translated into 750 DPS... yikes...

Oh, and I thought many of you might like to hear that we spent today reworking the way resistances work. No more "magic 200" number.

Instead, your level will provide you most of the resistance you need. A level 50 player with 200 resistance from their clothing will now, instead of just having just met their target, will actually be into the bonus zone and be mitigating some amount of damage, around 125ish (for a level 50) will get you taking normal damage, while a player running around buck naked will take about a third more damage than default... not so much more that you can't beat up on some easier enemies without armored clothing.

This should hopefully allow for some cool outfits of clothing, where you can (for example) focus on resisting viral damage while still having a pretty good defense against ballistic damage at the same time. It will hopefully also lose the feeling of you struggling to create a wardrobe with enough resistances, and make it more like you can kick butt on your own but these things will help you elevate the butt kicking to a higher level.

The system should be implemented pretty soon... I'll let you know when it's ready to look at.

Other news, I checked through the database and looked at how many versions of clothing have armored and shielded versions. It turns out that at least 95% of them do. So for any shirt you want to wear, there's a 95% chance that there is also a +5%, +15%, +22%, +20%, +33%, +36% version of it out there (or whatever those breakdowns are ) My next step is to check through the loot tables (what fun) to make sure they're all actually dropping.

So anyhow... we're doing what we can to restore fashion to its rightful place in the Matrix while still making it worthwhile to collect good stuff
Message Edited by HCFrog on 02-13-200611:25 PM

Very glad to see this is getting addressed, it is responsible for putting a lot of players off even before they attempt to use the new system fully. I am concerned however at an approach which, at least in the given example, seems to be nerfing the NPC's rather than buffing the player, this again indicates we are less effective than we have been and an NPC specific balance leaves pvp up in the air...or am i misinterpreting that?

Delighted by the shift of emphasis (hopefully) from the dependence of clothing buffs, making the levels of awakened have an increased effect is a very positive move imo. Along with our devastating effectiveness as fighters we also wish to retain that devastating element of style SMILEY

**PBlade**

I think you are misinterpeting it Tytanya, but a common mistake.

Under the new revision we have not been nerfed, the NPCs have been buffed to hell due to the DPS system.

For example, as HCFrog pointed out, a boss with +750 melee under the old system, would have +750 DPS, which is of course, insane.

This is happening throughout the NPCS, which is why we lose so easily. So as you see, we don't lose, they win :smileytongue: