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Discussion Thread: Dev Journal 01 - August 24, 2005
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Joined: Aug 17, 2005
Messages: 85
Location: Marietta Ohio
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I agree, we need to bring this game back to its roots, the movie itself, there should be your best ideas for new material.



Jacked Out

Joined: Aug 16, 2005
Messages: 359
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all sounds good, will they deliver in time though. Like when we heard of pandoras box at first it was a long time ago. If this happens with all this other content i think its all goin to be too late for me. if pandoras box and a few things come early spt i think it will make the game more enjoyable, question is though how long before it gets back to what it is like now? I always hope he is gona fix lag lol




Joined: Aug 27, 2005
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I like almost everything I heard about the new interlock changes..the only thing tat bothers me is that they will be removing multi person fighting...Even though hard I find it exhilerating to jump in the middle of 5 yellows and get them all into interlock...moving from one to the other smoothely...I think they should keep this if not improve on it Gives a good MAtrix feel, as for everything else I cant wait!!


Hidden Resource

Joined: Aug 20, 2005
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Great news Archeron.   Thanks for keeping the community updated. 

 

Keep up the good work.   I am looking forward to seeing it put into play.

 

 


Jacked Out

Joined: Aug 17, 2005
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Did I misunderstand the article or did it say that multi
person interlock was going to be no more?  I hope not, I liked
being able to take on three people at once in interlock, when it
actually happened that is.  If anything I'd like to see you be
able to attack all three opponents in interlock instead of finish off
one, move on to the next style play.





I really hope when you interlock someone it does not prevent you or your opponent from being
interlocked by other outside opponents.

Message Edited by Gwion on 08-27-2005 04:04 PM
Message edited by Gwion on 08/27/2005 15:04:35.





Joined: Aug 15, 2005
Messages: 315
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Repost:



I'm surprised they even put it in...actually, not that surprised
really. Leave it to those in charge to find a way to mess us things
further. Those combat changes sound pretty good don't they? Anti-Stun
pills for a while, MAs become stronger, get ranged melee attacks..





Except it completely destroys and semblance of balance we have. It's
likely we're much closer to balance now than after the upcoming combat
"balancing".





First off, even though they're temporary, the Anti-Stun Pill completely
throws off and destroys balance. Sure, it might sound like a good
thing, but in reality it completely and utterly changes things for all
classes. With one item Karate has become the weakest MA.





Second, IL changes will further grant more power and give more advantage to those with greater numbers.





Third, instead of fixing the problems with IL such as rolling out while
Enraged, Confused, Stunned, Rooted, they're giving MAs Free-Fire
attacks/abilities, and weaking some ranged combat
attacks/abilities/classes, though to what extent is currently unknown.





Also, they'll be balancing DPS. Sounds like a good idea right? Wrong.
I'm expecting that Hacker, MKT, and possibly even ER could take a hit
from DPS reductions. Sure, a Hacker needs to be weakened a bit, but
only focusing on offensive capabilities and not weaknesses is not
creating balance. For example, MKT can deal a lot of DMG. However, they
spend most if not all IS to kill their target, and have no resistances
aside from Stealth Resistance.





Fourth, the Anti-Stun Pill further increases Operative reliance on
consumables to be effective. An Operative needs CT Boosters to be
effective. Much of the time they need Antibiotics to be effective. Now,
they'll need Anti-Stun Pills. That means more farming, more coding,
more time doing something boring to participate in something that's be
made worse with this "balancing".





Now, as to other changes upcoming.




The first part involves timed interaction with game/mission objects
such as doors and computers. This is a prelude to adding a consistent
set of rules under which Invisibility works. These changes are proper
solutions for the temporary measures put in place a little while ago.



Sounds like a good thing right? Possible un-nerf
of Spy, right? Well, that's all good but Spy is pretty much useless in
missions due to mission timers.



As to Pandora's Box, it sounds like something that
combines collectors with missions and construct bosses. Now all the boring stuff is in one place!





True, not really on topic, but meh.



Jacked Out

Joined: Aug 15, 2005
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WHA!?!?! :smileysurprised: How can you be leaving Interlock in the game? This proves to me and many others that the statement of research was false. If you had ever done research you would have seen that Interlock makes MA useless. While knife throwers and hackers and gunman can attack and handle several people at once MA is forced to focus on one and get torn apart by other. I seriously though SOE would fix these obvious mistakes in the game since they did such a god job on EQ2. The melee combat system will take time to fix. But you guy’s jus need to sit down, make tons of animation, and ultimately make MA system twitch format. You guys are just doing this the lazy mans way by trying to make everything move faster so that you won’t be in Interlock and available to gunman hackers and knife throwers for as long. This is bad; I know SOE can do better than this.


 



Jacked Out

Joined: Aug 16, 2005
Messages: 359
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OMG i cant believe u said that................... Interlock ruins MA............rofl. Thats what makes this game special and not just another WoW etc.......... I think interlock is an amazing idea and i cudnt stand us fighting without interlock, it would ruin the game taking interlock out. we wouldnt get the cool fighting animation. do us all a favor and dont post that again. that is the stupidest thing i have ever heard. i tell what would run ma standing there in no IL and throwin one punch ..................... boring, plus they could just hyperjump away sp you may aswell give ma ppl no cq also.


Jacked Out

Joined: Aug 16, 2005
Messages: 359
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I can see why they are takin multi IL out too. the animation has too many problems like wen u dont outroll them and they hit anyway etc........




Joined: Aug 17, 2005
Messages: 85
Location: Marietta Ohio
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I would like to see changes done to make the data miner tree worth
having, and i would like to see increased range for the sniper tree,
these are a request from the general public. thank you.



Jacked Out

Joined: Aug 16, 2005
Messages: 359
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new archives for 50s would be nice. the zero one archive does notin but spam you with berets


Jacked Out

Joined: Aug 28, 2005
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Well first off I have to say I am very pleased that they are not going to do away with interlock but I hope the changes won't make it worthless.

 

I don't want to bring up other Sony titles but I will, they totally screwed SWG by totally revamping the combat system all I ask is please, please, please do not make that same mistake and keep those guys on their side of the building, be strong!!!

 

All other changes sound great on paper, lets hope it all comes out as planned.


Mainframe Invader

Joined: Aug 15, 2005
Messages: 339
Location: San LOrenzo
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everythings koo wit me with what dey said all i want top noe is the exact dates for everything pandoras bow will coming out in like mid sept combat prob october or early november others will be implamented earlier like the pill isnt really that bi to take that long so thats prbo in early sept the spy thing will be later since their reamking everything new moves and what not so that maybe november im think or december i just qwant an approximate time line of when theyll be ready.


 


or if theyll open the q&a for testing

Message Edited by SpikeDX on 08-28-2005 05:14 PM
Message edited by SpikeDX on 08/28/2005 16:14:05.





Joined: Aug 15, 2005
Messages: 53
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OK, here's a reconstructed Part I of my previously lost comments.  There's too much for one post SMILEY

 

Long comments I:  Interlock


The producer comments imply that we may be seeing an end to Interlock in favor of 'free-fire' attacking on timers, which is how every other MMOG works.  I’m inclined to panic but instead decided to write this, heh.


What does Interlock do for us?



  1. It allows synchronization of attacker and defender animations, so that MxO fighting looks like two people punching, kicking, and blocking against each other, and not two dissociated figures punching air or flinching at blows that appear to land feet away.

  2. It provides a mechanism where the hand-to-hand fighter’s proximity to his target is reflected; the other guy can’t simply walk away with impunity.

 


However the system is broken in these ways:



  1. As noted by the producer comments ‘zero-sum’ combat and PvP are a mismatch.  If A has just a very few levels above B he will nearly always beat B; if A is significantly higher he will invariably beat not only B, but B and 50 friends of the same level of B.

  2. The interlock timing is out of sync with that of free-fire attacks, lending unbalanced power to the free-fire attacks as compared to the interlock combat.  This is not only broken in its own right but makes balancing the different ability trees against each other nearly impossible.

  3. At a (small) number of interlocked opponents against one target, the system breaks down entirely and ‘thrashes’ making sure each participant has a turn to execute their roll and attacker/defender animation.  This further slows down the fighting cycle.  It could be said that the best way to keep someone alive in Interlock is to have five or six extra people Interlock him.

  4. Numerous issues and game balance problems exist with the transition in and out of Interlock; when may a MA interlock a Hacker, when may Spies successfully attack and roll out, and so forth.

 


OK, so it’s broken.  How do we get rid of the bad without also losing the good?


Simply removing Interlock, putting the MA attacks on free-fire timers solves problems #2 and #3. 


Adding a sort of avoidance/mitigation system common to other MMOGs solves #1; now we can have full hits, partial hits, misses, and more; I’d even argue that the block action ought to provide a better chance of creating states (off-balance, etc) against opponents than the three attack options.


But that still leaves #4, and we need to keep the benefits of the Interlock system.


The only way I can see the benefit of the animation system is to keep it.  Even if A and B are out of Interlock, if A executes Guard Breaker either the successful or unsuccessful animation plays for both of them. 


But what if, while that’s happening, C comes along and executes another attack on B?  This is the real trick.  If C’s attack happens without interrupting the existing animation, it looks like C’s punching air; we’ve lost the immersion.  If the animation between A and B is interrupted in mid-flow, we can also lose the immersion.


I don’t think we can expect that 100% of cases will work out.  However, here’s a proposed rule of thumb:  the most-successful (damaging) attack’s animation takes precedence.  So, say A attacks B, and hits.  The hit animation plays.  Then C executes an attack, but it misses.  It’s then OK for C’s animation to hit air, because it’s not doing damage.  However if C clobbers B, then the animation going on between A and B stops, and the one between C and B begins.


Now we’re left with one big issue; how to keep the ‘lock’ part of Interlock?


This may be very familiar to old wargamers, but I’d argue for a Zone of Control (ZOC) system.  Simply put, if A enters a certain radius from B, and they are considered Hostile to each other, he is then in B’s Zone of Control.  A is at risk of being clobbered by B.


 


When in another player’s Zone of Control, the following ought to happen:


-         Base movement rate should be dramatically decreased to walk speed; you can’t run by someone trying to hit you without being completely vulnerable.


-         Any attempt (whether by movement, hyperjump, or escape ability) to leave the ZOC triggers a free, immediate attack of opportunity against the person escaping.  This opportunity can be denoted by flashing icon.  There ought to exist some attacks which have special effects if used against a person leaving ZOC, and some which might only be used in this circumstance (e.g., it should be very dangerous to turn your back on an Assassin).


-         Some or all of these attacks, if successful, inhibit the escaping player from leaving ZOC (think short-term root).  If A tries to run by B, who Grabs him and throws him to the ground, A did not succeed in getting away from B.


-         The method of escape (regular movement, HJ, escape ability) serves as a modifier on the attack.  Someone doing a fancy escape roll is harder to hit than someone running by.


-         The server may need to check both parties for movement; if A and B both run by each other they should either both have an opportunity to strike or neither have an opportunity to strike


-         If a player is already engaged by combat (involved in a fighting animation) the ZOC they exert diminishes or is eliminated.  If A is blocking like crazy against B’s triple kick, A is in no position to reach out and clobber C who is running for the door.


-         Some other abilities executed outside of ZOC may reduce or eliminate the target’s ability to exert ZOC.  Being ‘rooted’ makes it hard to stop someone running by you…


-         Movement as a result of fighting animation does not trigger a ZOC opportunity (it’d be a huge bug to have someone moving on the attack animation only to provoke many ZOC opportunities by doing so).  ZOC is re-evaluated at the end of the animation (if you’re kicked many feet away from someone, when you get up you might then have the chance to run)


If you like a tactical game parallel, look at NWN’s ‘attacks of opportunity.’  There leaving a ZOC provokes a free attack, but the Tumble ability allows characters the chance to avoid taking the attack.


In the movies, look at the Trinity fight at the end of M:Reloaded.  She obviously would like to escape the Agent, but cannot; wherever she turns she’s forced to keep fighting.  Eventually she’s booted through a door, and only then has an opportunity to try her escape through the window.  (Not that it worked out very well for her, but it’s the only example I could think of where a martial-arts fight happens and the fight transitions back outside of hand-to-hand range).


If this, or something like it, is put in place then there’s still a reason for Hackers not to stand on top of Martial Artists and for Spies to be able to get in and out of fighting range quickly.  It presents a lot of tactical complexity to the MxO fighting system, particularly in PvP situations.


 


 


 





Joined: Aug 15, 2005
Messages: 36
Location: Israel
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Mightily Said Prisoner,







May The DEV OverLords Hear Your Wisdom From The Mouth Of BAbeS...


 
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