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Zero Sum, in-IL Reuse Timers,Hacks, Kung Fu, and Special Moves Spam
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Joined: Aug 16, 2005
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Disclaimer: of course these are just my opinions, and although i'm very convinced of what I say, I am not pretending to be a "cr2.0 guru" who thinks he knows it all. I've already been accused of this... lol

On another threadHCFrog wrote:
hmmmm I'm thinking this one over, about what the rolls would be to make it come out like that... hmmmm SMILEY I'll have to get back to you on this one. It does kind of present an interesting situation when you think through it.

Cause basically in IL, a hacker casting a hack uses their Viral Accuracy vs. your Viral Defense, and if you're MA, your VD will be way better than in live, but not as good as a hacker's viral defense and accuracy. They have a better chance of hitting you, and every time they hit with a special and you're not using a special, your move won't go through because specials trump everything else (which is why Walrus always says "zero-sum combat isn't completely gone..."SMILEY so hackers definitely are more powerful in IL than they were before.

I think they were meant to be better in IL with CR2; but they might be turning out too much better. Since their attacks got the IS costs reduced recently, they now might be able to use them more repeatedly than an MA or gunman... verrrrry interesting.



From what I have seen it seems that hackers can do a theorically infinite combo of specials (as long as they keep outrolling you. And that is very likely). I think that it must be impossible for every class in this game to cast two specials - of any kind or tree, even special from different trees - back to back, to avoid interlock to become once again zero sum special move spam combat, even if now it's not impossible to break such "combos" since the wider range of accuracy rolls.

Hackers in QA are now very powerful outside interlock - I don't have nothing against this- but they can't be powerful inside interlock too. This makes the combat even more unbalanced than in the past.

In the last weeks I played extensively in the QA server, and I noticed how repeating a set of specials back to back makes it very hard for your foe to cast specials, since a failed one results one round reuse timer for every special; an hacker can use a logic barrage 4.0 -> logic blast 3.0 loop almost forever with very little IS loss, and his foe can only try to break that once every 2 turns (as i said blocking this loop is not impossible, but hackers can do an average of 3 consequent hacks, one turn where they lose, and then start another hack loop!). In this way a Special Move Spammer once he hits his foe with one special is 90% sure to hit again with a special in the following turn! I repeatedly hit 9mmfu with a loop of specials from kung fu (since i believe this is not a correct behavior for the game i don't think this is cool) to make him see what i mean.

Moreover hackers have a disgusting accuracy. Upgrade attacks gives +65pts (of course, counting the influences i got a revolting +108 just from this buff!) of accuracy for 80 seconds! that explains why trying to counter an hack with a special in interlock is very hard for every class! Just make it last 16 seconds (four interlock turns) with a 80 seconds reuse timer and it's fine!

As i said before, making an universal reuse timer for one turn for every family of attack, and removing the universal reuse timer after a failed move should be enough to stop the high tendency to become one sided of the current cr2.0 interlock combat.
Realistically Casting an hack in interlock isn't as easy as it is outside, so hackers IMO should have a 2 turns timer for every tree after a successful hack.
In particular, regarding the removal of reuse timers after a failed special, I would add that giving another disadvantage to a player who just lost his previus special isn't just, and removes the point of having moves that give your foe one turn of Powerless or stun state: whats the point of preventing your foe from doing specials for one turn (well some special can reach 2 turns) if he cannot do them anyway?

A spy must beat an hacker in interlock, they are operatives after all.

Making hackers the must powerful class outside interlock is fine, but once inside they must be as harmless as they are powerful outside interlock: that is to say, they must do insignificant damage.

Obviusly what i said does not apply to FM and UM, since they are supposed to be interlock classes (but the must not do a lot of dmg, since devs said that they are supposed to be tanks not damage dealers).
Ready for your opinions, F2B.



Mainframe Invader

Joined: Sep 15, 2005
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From my QA experience, I am inclined to agree that Hackers now have a big advantage in interlock.  However, because of the DPS system, I don't think their damage can be altered without rebalancing the whole tree.  The answer must come from the re-use timers.  I agree that less spam is good, so a bit of alteration to the way the timers work could go a long way, and we have already made a big move in this direction with the alteration of Martial Arts Prowess and Firearms Skill, we just need to complete the process with re-evaluation of special move timers.



Jacked Out

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Less frequent use would make special moves a bit  more... special SMILEY

but then all hackers are is special moves, if you make it too long then the DPS will have to be raised, meaning the hacks do more damage, which doesnt  play well  in a zerg situation. :s

Unless perhaps, if a free fire weapon was made for hackers. Something like logic barrage being an item in your inventory that you could equip into the weapon slot,that gave a non-special but viral free fire attack... hmm. I'm going to go post that in development roundtable.

But on the main subject, I agree. longer timers, or every ability being on the same 'family' of timers.




Joined: Aug 16, 2005
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TheTaxidermist wrote:
Less frequent use would make special moves a bit  more... special SMILEY

but then all hackers are is special moves, if you make it too long then the DPS will have to be raised, meaning the hacks do more damage, which doesnt  play well  in a zerg situation. :s

Unless perhaps, if a free fire weapon was made for hackers. Something like logic barrage being an item in your inventory that you could equip into the weapon slot,that gave a non-special but viral free fire attack... hmm. I'm going to go post that in development roundtable.

But on the main subject, I agree. longer timers, or every ability being on the same 'family' of timers.



In my opinion the reuse timers are only needed in interlock. I think hackers are very well implemented as they are now, of course until they remain outside interlock.



Jacked Out

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" an hacker can use a logic barrage 4.0 -> logic blast 3.0 loop almost forever with very little IS loss, and his foe can only try to break that once every 2 turns "
 
I've messed around with this a lot and I agree that something needs to be done with that combo of specials. I think that they should just cost more IS and people will have to alter their patterns of specials instead of being able to do that infinately while hitting for 400+ every cast. The DPS for those two have to be taken into account together instead of separately since their re-use timers aren't tied to each other. The amount of time to cast one is equal to the re-use timer of the other. Since DPS is almost gerunteed 400+ every 2secs or whatever the timing is for those two.




Joined: Aug 15, 2005
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Well like in live. Expect  changes within a week.

We already see mass PVP battles where there are more hackers and howitzers then MA's. We've see hacker fights before where anything but a fully buffed hacker is utterly useless.

Remember the first week of gameplay where you could get coats with CT?

Remember back in beta when it was a % bonus items. (much like we are seeing in CR2)

Remember when the blackshadow jacket has steath ability?

Remember when Interlock was being called "The next wave in MMO combat systems" ?

Stuff changes... Expect after a week or two, popular and overly dominate classes to become nerfed. The Devs will be watching PVP and PVE and seeing what changes need to be done.


Veteran Hacker

Joined: Jan 18, 2006
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right on fade...... nix the reuse timer on a miss, go to rounds reuse timer for hits, and stop all versions of spam-combos that give unfair attempts to attack.  in the new system if you have more attempts to do damage you have a significant advantage.  most people will be close in resistances and defense, enough to make it close, but an unfair loophole in attack quantity must be addressed.




Joined: Aug 29, 2005
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I agree. Good comments.


Jacked Out

Joined: Aug 22, 2005
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this must be what is happening to me  I know that I have done doezens of duels and of late noticed that in many fights I can't get a hit in edge-wise. knowing that I have better iniative than my opponent, similar accuracy and stil I loose 9/10 special attacks, waste IS and get nothing accomplished. Very frustrating to be spammed with with specials, especially specials that shouldn't be useable in succession, but it's still happeneing.

This issues absolutely must be addressed prior to launch. Abusive players will take advantage of such situations and SOE has already neglected to punish anyone for anything other than fowl language. Like I have said inthe past, CR2.0 will either make or break this game. It's small glitches like these that will make this the downfall in the end.

So I beg... 

Devs please remove failed re-use timers and IS drain, and absolutely prevent the spaming of associated special attacks.

-Jilted

 



Jacked Out

Joined: Aug 22, 2005
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And of course this wil get burried in countless other threads and never gett seen by anyone that matters.

Why do I even bother...





Joined: Aug 16, 2005
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Jilted_1 wrote:

And of course this wil get burried in countless other threads and never gett seen by anyone that matters.

Why do I even bother...




I can assure you that at least one dev is aware of the issue. I reported to him in the test server personally.


Jacked Out

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Yes it's been seen SMILEY

Sorry I can't comment more because I don't know what exactly we're going to do with this, just wanted you to know we've seen it.
Cal




Joined: Aug 16, 2005
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On the subject of accuracy, just ask your friendly Trauma Surgeon to hit you with Viral Shielding, it should go 1-for-1 with the Updrade Attacks buff (Defense vs. Accuracy) assuming near equal infulences.

Still, I agree with you, a Ballista has short re-use timers, DPS, and IS efficiency all very easily... a bit overpowered.


Jacked Out

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HCFrog wrote:
Yes it's been seen SMILEY

Sorry I can't comment more because I don't know what exactly we're going to do with this, just wanted you to know we've seen it.



I appologize for my negativity. I've had better days than today if you know what I mean.

-Jilted

 



Vindicator

Joined: Aug 15, 2005
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I think all you need to do is raise hacker IS costs when in interlock.

 
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