Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

**TekMon**

Renesis13B wrote:
Npc balance and pvp balance are 2 different things. I still think the at interlock numbers are too high. Most are only a 10% difference which is basically nothing. If a fight takes 10 hits outside of interlock it only takes you 11 in interlock. Hackers should not be that powerful in interlock since they are a range fighting class.

Renesis, I know the difference. I said I still need to test it at PvP, and frankly I expect a drop in accuracy, because NPC manage average values on their stats, while a player does his/her best to excel strengths and overcome weaknesses.

However, though I agree with you that Hacker must be a ranged fighting class, I don't believe in them to be a useless class at interlock. I mean, hacker should have a chance in survive interlock, though it clearly must be a very hard task to achieve.

The problem I see, is that the way the combat models are handled, modifying an ability like Upgrade Attacks affects both sides, i.e. Ranged and Interlock, effectively nerfing the class, but not bringing a way to overcome the created unbalance.

Look at what happened to the ability that started this thread. revolt found out that duration and reuse timers were a way to exploit it. The change was done to correct it. Even if I fell it was a harsh change, the change was needed.

Therefore, we have to look for those unbalances and suggest a better way to manage the overpower or underpower they might produce.

TekMon, The New Order

LiquidZ

I think what might correct this is putting viral accuracy back on the program launchers...

**Renesis13B**

Im not sure how that would solve the problem.

LiquidZ wrote:
I think what might correct this is putting viral accuracy back on the program launchers...

TekMon,
I understand what your saying completely. All of my testing the past couple of weeks have been fighting hackers and trying to find an effective way to defend it in pvp. If youve used hacker while flagged then ive probably taken a coule of pop shots at you so you would attack me. What I know is viral defense doesnt work in interlock. Its your roll against the other guys roll (Zero sum) and right now hackers simply roll to high. Theres a reason why hackers have a penalty in interlock and its because they dont belong there.

What I would like to see the accuracy penalty in interlock increase. Some suggested playing with the ability timers during interlock and that might be another solution. Most trees cant use specials back to back in interlock but hackers can. I just want to make it clear something needs to be done with hackers in interlock. The ranged attacks arent an issue for me just interlock.

cryshal

..right. an issue for him.

is there anything else we can do for you, good sir?

>revolt_

What would solve the 'issue' of hackers in interlock would be to activate their re-use timers when they activate a special in interlock. Every other interlock class has the same re-use timer penalty, so why not hackers?

>revolt_

**Renesis13B**

Im trying to make the game better and balanced. Im not trying to be selfish and destroy the game for you so I look better. Everything ive posted is accurate. My agenda is to make this game better not make my chosen class the most powerful because im too lazy to switch. Theres a difference.

Cryshal wrote:
..right. an issue for him.
is there anything else we can do for you, good sir?

**TekMon**

How can be this applied without doing hacker a dummy class at interlock? So far, many of the MA special abilities require states to be used. Still, fighting classes have inherent bonuses for melee combat, that make them the standing classes for fighting.
This is not true with hacker. Every ability it's treated as special. If there are not status requirements, it's because the abilities create them with a small chance to succeed to overcome the need to use a melee action, compared against MA classes.
Now. What are you talking about the reuse penalty? True, a hacker pulls one special after other in succession, but there are reuse timers applied. Please, elaborate on this.

TekMon, The New Order

**Renesis13B**

MA's and Gun classes cant use specials back to back. They have to wait at least one round in between attacks while the timers expire. Hackers in interlock dont have this restriction which allows them to do more damage in less time than other trees.
Even if we have hybrid builds switching them during interlock still gives us a 1 round penalty which defeats the purpose.

**TekMon**

So the problem persists, because hacker is all special moves. The only and reasonable alternative might be the recreation of the hacker abilities, in such form, that there could be non-special abilities, better suited for IL.

As it is, it looks like we're stuck. I'm not able to see a change on hacker, with the combat model in use, that allows a clearly distinction between melee and range attacks.

Being the current state of things, maybe we should propose a new set of abilities for the tree, besides looking for any potential exploit or clear unbalance.

TekMon, The New Order

>revolt_

Nah, they just have to activate all the re-use timers when a hack is being used by a hacker in interlock. The same as with Kung Fu martial artists and their special abilities. Those too can't hammer special after special against their opponent, or can they?

>revolt_

HCFrog

Another option we have available is that we can change which abilities can be used in interlock. Maybe there are just too many usable in IL at the moment.

I imagine that this will most likely be one of the first balance issues addressed post - CR2. Options so far:

1. Apply further accuracy penalties to hacker abilities used in interlock

2. Review the family timers for hacker abilities (although preventing back-to-back IL usage would also prevent back-to-back out-of-IL usage as well, with the current system, and a rework of the system would be so far down the road as to prevent this from being a timely balance)

3. Reduce the number of viral attacks usable in IL (maybe combined with #2 so the ones that remain all share a common timer)

This is all pending more feedback as well... as more players get better at the system I would expect to hear more feedback on exactly how balanced it feels right now.

**Renesis13B** · 03/27/2006 18:20:42

Thanks for the response HCFrog. I wish you could squeeze an update in before it goes live but I know time is very short right now.

Theres some good feedback here about the issues with timers etc starting at around page 5-6.

Message Edited by Renesis13B on 03-27-200609:20 PM

>revolt_

Oh, I see now the difficulties behind the family timers.

>revolt_

errorist

You have some good ideas HCFrog, as you said we are going to see the live feedback.

But i love the idea of an abilities restriction in IL. But i would prefer it for the downgrades and upgrades only, It could seems logical that a hacker loose his accuracy in IL.

Keep the good job, can't wait for this afternoon (Europe)

**TekMon**

Frog, From my point of view, mix of points 2 and 3 is a good compromise to balance hacker at interlock and ranged.

First, the tree should be reworked to have offensive abilities clearly differenced. Something like what was done with Logic Cannon, now an ability used only outside IL. From there, a review at the timers will help to trim the overall effect.

Otherwise, as I said I don't foresee a way for a fair balance, because any change on DPS, activation and reuse timers, will shift the class one side or the other.

TekMon, The New Order