Good god, how many times must I point out the massively huge accuracy of MKT's and the complete lack of % bonuses to thrown defense renders hyper sense practically useless?At least once more I guess.And about Shielded clothing, I have already said that yes, customizing your entire RSI to fighting MKT's will allow you to beat them, but we shouldn't have to take such huge steps simply to stand a chance against that tree.How many times must I repeat myself before it sinks in?
like I've said, even if thrown def was added to other tree's, thoes who are moaning about MKT now will still be moaning after... The inablity to fight an MKT is not because of any bugs, or things messed up with the combat system, it comes down to the individual player and their ability to deal with it. Several other players including myself understand and realize how to fight MKT's, its only thoes who dont who gripe about it so much.
Try upping your Reason a little. I find that with higher Reason and Quicksilver gloves I can do well against all but the best MKT's on the server.
Arcanoloth wrote:So you're admitting that MKT does break several standards in the game.You should also remember they CHANGED THE ENTIRE COMBAT SYSTEM to fix this problem when hacker had it. And here you are now, denying that any change should made at all to fix the problem with MKT.I guess that is yet ANOTHER standard that is being broken by MKT.the only "standard" that MKT breaks in the game is the lack of defense modifiers in game in other tree's, thats it. And like I said even if it was added in and people had the defense they wanted, they'd still be crying about MKT for the sole purpose that they dont know how to combat an MKT's play style. Its a mental crutch to support an flawed argument. And the combat wasnt changed because of hacker... You werent here in CR1, so you know nothing of which you speak.
So you're admitting that MKT does break several standards in the game.You should also remember they CHANGED THE ENTIRE COMBAT SYSTEM to fix this problem when hacker had it. And here you are now, denying that any change should made at all to fix the problem with MKT.I guess that is yet ANOTHER standard that is being broken by MKT.
the only "standard" that MKT breaks in the game is the lack of defense modifiers in game in other tree's, thats it. And like I said even if it was added in and people had the defense they wanted, they'd still be crying about MKT for the sole purpose that they dont know how to combat an MKT's play style. Its a mental crutch to support an flawed argument.
And the combat wasnt changed because of hacker... You werent here in CR1, so you know nothing of which you speak.
Arcanoloth wrote:Good god, how many times must I point out the massively huge accuracy of MKT's and the complete lack of % bonuses to thrown defense renders hyper sense practically useless?At least once more I guess.And about Shielded clothing, I have already said that yes, customizing your entire RSI to fighting MKT's will allow you to beat them, but we shouldn't have to take such huge steps simply to stand a chance against that tree.How many times must I repeat myself before it sinks in?If you have some Thrown resistance on a few of the clothes you use for your accuracy or damage, all you need to do is change out one piece for the level 50 shielded items and you'll have decent resist.You don't even need a macro to do that. Just quick wits, an organized inventory panel, and not have down syndrome.
Spies abs break timers ftl...
The Leo wrote:Spies abs break timers ftl...Nope. It's a bug that's the same with every tree.
I was here for CR 1, Hacker had timers to the moon (Like MKT), an accuracy through the roof (Like MKT) and the only way to adequately defend against it was to load half of the hacker tree. CR 2 worked to fix this, decreased Hacker Timers, Gave us feasible defenses to use and allowed you to fight hacker without loading half the tree. Unfortunately loading half the MKT tree is not feasible cause a) There are no defenses against MKT, anywhere and b) You leave yourself way too vulnerable cause you have half a tree loaded and are hobbled in your main tree.
you obviously never pvp'd in cr1 then, otherwise you'd know everything had huge timers back then.... the duration of time that debuffs in hacker lasted back then speaks for its self, but mkt's could do a 20 second stun, could 3 hit kill people, MA's could do a 20 second stun, rougly 20 second powerless, 30 second enrage, almost 20 second disarm, gunman could do 20 second disarm, spam stun in interlock, etc.. etc.. etc..
As for a hackers accuracy, hackers didnt have any accuracy through the roof... VT and VD were essentially another form of CT which determined rolls outside of IL, everyone had 400 VT and everyone had 400 VD, the hit/miss on hacks outside of interlock was all random and nothing you could do would improve upon your accuracy out of interlock once you hit 400 VT. And hackers in interlock only had the 200 CT that awakened provided, so for them to roll high in IL they had to be TB'd, have CE 1.0 running, and a UM buff, because the hacks by themself aginst a target that wasnt stunned/powerless, or blinded rolled like absolute crap.
And as for how it was back in the day where you loaded 1 tree and that was it, there was no problem in doing that back then. You would have your capped VD, and then have your 1 tree to pwn with, and while I cant speak for recursion or vector, the best pvp'ers on syntax in CR1 were never dedicated hackers, they used their 1 tree and pwned face with it. As someone who was concidered by many to be at least one of the best on syntax back in CR1, I can honestly say that I thought hackers were cannon fodder back then because they had an overall lack of resistance. Only people who griped about hackers were thoes who were to lazy to go farm the info/consumable subs to make anti's and to buy activity facilitator pills.
Arcanoloth wrote:
MKT has the highest accuracy and CT Bonuses in the game, giving them an undeniable advantage in IL, but apparently MA's are supposed to dominate IL.
does MA, hacker, and gunman all have exactly the same accuracy bonus via abilities/clothing/attributes? I mean if this was the case this would make MKT atypical of all other trees in the game, but since every class is different, there is nothing atypical about 1 class in the game having the highest accuracy, just as there's nothing atypical of 1 class having the highest damage output.
And a good MA can tear a MKT a new one FYI.
There are no Thrown defense bonuses in the game, gimping every person who tries to fight them.
like I said this is the only valid point you make, yet it doesnt substatiate your argument aginst why fighting an MKT is so difficult. 99.95% of the time I pvp, I dont ever load hypersense, yet I have no problems fighting MKT's, just like 99.95% of the time I dont load hyperblock, yet I have no problems fighting MA's.
As I said previously, CR2=random heap of garbage, if you cant fight an MKT now, adding in more defense isnt going to help you.
MKT has a lot of timers that stack, more than any other tree and, as a matter of fact, as many as all the other trees combined.
not really... and more than that, most MKT abilities that dont require stealth to pull off dont do that much damage by themselves.
CC Tools are broken, and thus, make it VERY hard to fight a disguised MKT cause it is impossible to break the disguise.
this has been broken since CR2 hit, and rarely ever helped anyone in CR1 unless someone was exploiting it and doing it blue flaged to disrupt pvp.
More than that, your argument in this aspect is completely pointless because well, disguise allows a player to pull off a stealth attack, is there anything in the game thats supposed to break a snipers concealment? Honestly this is one that shouldnt be fixed just because for 1 point of memory, it gimps and entire tree in the game.
Thrown Resistance Bonuses are broken and do not work, making loading Calm Mind Calm Body not as effective as it could be, again gimping any players who fight MKT's.
whats atypical about this? last I checked none of these abilities were working.
Hacker Debuffs against MKT, in general, are not nearly as effective as their debuffs against MA's, Gunmen or other Hackers, so even the "Nemesis class" of MKT is gimped when fighting them.
any debuff thats worth putting on a player works just as effectivly on a MKT as it does any other class, to debuff someone's accuracy no matter what class they are is a waste of your IS, because that IS would be better spent for something like powerless, stun, etc... etc...
More than that, thats a design flaw and relic of how CR1 was, where both guns and MKT were qualified as ranged damage. Just like another relic of CR1 is the "sitting" debuff, where your ballistic defence becomes garbage, but your defence aginst anything else isnt hurt, you just get the damage modifier effect, hense why a MKT, MA, or hacker can miss a player thats sitting, but a gunman will hit everytime. So while you want to complain that you cant hurt their accuracy, your wasting your time because thoes debuffs are virtually worthless in CR2 which is why during pvp its pretty rare that a hacker ever tries to tear down someone's accuracy or CT via debuffs like blind.
If you still deny my request post some REAL evidence as to why, cause right now you are just holding your breath and going blue in the face until we agree with you.
Like I said, you can list off all the strengths of a class in the game or list all of its weak points to try to build a case for why you fail at fighting an MKT, but in the end what it comes down to is inexpierence, and its as simple as that. You like to get worked up any time I throw your CQ count in your face, but in this case, it is relivent to this "debate", you've been playing this game for at least a year and a half, yet your not even at 5k worth of CQ. Now as I've argued many times in the past, a players CQ count might not represent their individual skill in pvp, it does represent how much time they've spent pvp'ing. You can put up any weak sauce argument about how "you only have to sit on a team to get cq" or that "you can take CQ's from duels" etc... etc... But the simple fact is, you dont rack up the count by much by leeching or duelstopping someone, its done via time spent pvp'ing. And in this case man, its obvious you havnt spent enough time pvp'ing.
and btw, thats the only post of any length I plan on writing, so save your breath pylat, ripping my post apart to counter argue it isnt going to provoke a response from me other than the type of responses I've posted here already.
Arcanoloth wrote:I was here for CR 1, Hacker had timers to the moon (Like MKT), an accuracy through the roof (Like MKT) and the only way to adequately defend against it was to load half of the hacker tree. CR 2 worked to fix this, decreased Hacker Timers, Gave us feasible defenses to use and allowed you to fight hacker without loading half the tree. Unfortunately loading half the MKT tree is not feasible cause a) There are no defenses against MKT, anywhere and b) You leave yourself way too vulnerable cause you have half a tree loaded and are hobbled in your main tree. you obviously never pvp'd in cr1 then, otherwise you'd know everything had huge timers back then.... the duration of time that debuffs in hacker lasted back then speaks for its self, but mkt's could do a 20 second stun, could 3 hit kill people, MA's could do a 20 second stun, rougly 20 second powerless, 30 second enrage, almost 20 second disarm, gunman could do 20 second disarm, spam stun in interlock, etc.. etc.. etc..As for a hackers accuracy, hackers didnt have any accuracy through the roof... VT and VD were essentially another form of CT which determined rolls outside of IL, everyone had 400 VT and everyone had 400 VD, the hit/miss on hacks outside of interlock was all random and nothing you could do would improve upon your accuracy out of interlock once you hit 400 VT. And hackers in interlock only had the 200 CT that awakened provided, so for them to roll high in IL they had to be TB'd, have CE 1.0 running, and a UM buff, because the hacks by themself aginst a target that wasnt stunned/powerless, or blinded rolled like absolute crap.And as for how it was back in the day where you loaded 1 tree and that was it, there was no problem in doing that back then. You would have your capped VD, and then have your 1 tree to pwn with, and while I cant speak for recursion or vector, the best pvp'ers on syntax in CR1 were never dedicated hackers, they used their 1 tree and pwned face with it. As someone who was concidered by many to be at least one ofhe best on syntax back in CR1, I can honestly say that I thought hackers were cannon fodder back then because they had an overall lack of resistance. Only people who griped about hackers were thoes who were to lazy to go farm the info/consumable subs to make anti's and to buy activity facilitator pills.VT was essentially viral accuracy, the only tree which didn't need to load parts of Hacker was MKT, because they had the advantage of sneak, Hackers complained about their attacks not always hitting.....? and MAs, Gunmen and spies always complained about their effect timers because they could easily keep you bottlenecked for about 40 seconds, quite enough time to land a few LC2s and barrages ect, in IL though they did suck but, unless you can hit them with an enraging ability immediately they'd just roll out within a second. Simplein any case using Hacker in CR1 and comparing MKT in CR2 while their are similarities it was a completely different ball game and most of the points are null. Arcanoloth wrote:MKT has the highest accuracy and CT Bonuses in the game, giving them an undeniable advantage in IL, but apparently MA's are supposed to dominate IL. does MA, hacker, and gunman all have exactly the same accuracy bonus via abilities/clothing/attributes? I mean if this was the case this would make MKT atypical of all other trees in the game, but since every class is different, there is nothing atypical about 1 class in the game having the highest accuracy, just as there's nothing atypical of 1 class having the highest damage output. And a good MA can tear a MKT a new one FYI.In IL yes.... out of IL no, a good MKT should be able to keep the MA out of IL quite easily by throwing sever artery, deadly, neuro, ect. then they have abilities which root, and if the MKT has enough resistance (since you guys love using resistance in your arguments) then the damage from MA should be nullified, but since whenever I fight most MKTs they don't have that high resistance I can only assume that you don't feel there is a problem with the majority of MAs Arcanoloth wrote:There are no Thrown defense bonuses in the game, gimping every person who tries to fight them. like I said this is the only valid point you make, yet it doesnt substatiate your argument aginst why fighting an MKT is so difficult. 99.95% of the time I pvp, I dont ever load hypersense, yet I have no problems fighting MKT's, just like 99.95% of the time I dont load hyperblock, yet I have no problems fighting MA's.As I said previously, CR2=random heap of garbage, if you cant fight an MKT now, adding in more defense isnt going to help you.Total. Rubbish. There is no way you can fight an MKT or MA without using a Hyper, now yes the system is quite random but without defense your opponent will hit you every time and roll through your rolls. Adding in 10% defense in each tree would increase defense by a fair bit and actually putting 20-30% in Hacker would be reasonable since MKTs usually if starting with sneak will beat a Hacker. Arcanoloth wrote:MKT has a lot of timers that stack, more than any other tree and, as a matter of fact, as many as all the other trees combined. not really... and more than that, most MKT abilities that dont require stealth to pull off dont do that much damage by themselves.On an opponent with High resistance, which is in line with all other tree's and if you get states from knives you get added effects like powerless and stun so it's not as hard as it seems. Arcanoloth wrote:CC Tools are broken, and thus, make it VERY hard to fight a disguised MKT cause it is impossible to break the disguise. this has been broken since CR2 hit, and rarely ever helped anyone in CR1 unless someone was exploiting it and doing it blue flaged to disrupt pvp.More than that, your argument in this aspect is completely pointless because well, disguise allows a player to pull off a stealth attack, is there anything in the game thats supposed to break a snipers concealment? Honestly this is one that shouldnt be fixed just because for 1 point of memory, it gimps and entire tree in the game.Yes it does allow a player to pull of a stealth attack, but I doubt it's to have no defense against it. Also CCtool would take of concealment because if you used the build to any extent you'd realize they are only stealthed because they have sneak going, CCtools breaks sneak so it will break conceal. Arcanoloth wrote:Thrown Resistance Bonuses are broken and do not work, making loading Calm Mind Calm Body not as effective as it could be, again gimping any players who fight MKT's. whats atypical about this? last I checked none of these abilities were working.They do work I think with the resistance bonus's in the Awakened tree. I think. Arcanoloth wrote:Hacker Debuffs against MKT, in general, are not nearly as effective as their debuffs against MA's, Gunmen or other Hackers, so even the "Nemesis class" of MKT is gimped when fighting them. any debuff thats worth putting on a player works just as effectivly on a MKT as it does any other class, to debuff someone's accuracy no matter what class they are is a waste of your IS, because that IS would be better spent for something like powerless, stun, etc... etc...More than that, thats a design flaw and relic of how CR1 was, where both guns and MKT were qualified as ranged damage. Just like another relic of CR1 is the "sitting" debuff, where your ballistic defence becomes garbage, but your defence aginst anything else isnt hurt, you just get the damage modifier effect, hense why a MKT, MA, or hacker can miss a player thats sitting, but a gunman will hit everytime. So while you want to complain that you cant hurt their accuracy, your wasting your time because thoes debuffs are virtually worthless in CR2 which is why during pvp its pretty rare that a hacker ever tries to tear down someone's accuracy or CT via debuffs like blind. Hacker is weak against MKT because it has less accuracy, defense, damage and generally sucks in IL and high damage specials usually enter IL with MKT's, the only thing Hacker has going for it is a bunch of debuffs, which if the MKT uses disable evasion to use punt, the chance of the Hacker using them is nil. Arcanoloth wrote:If you still deny my request post some REAL evidence as to why, cause right now you are just holding your breath and going blue in the face until we agree with you. Like I said, you can list off all the strengths of a class in the game or list all of its weak points to try to build a case for why you fail at fighting an MKT, but in the end what it comes down to is inexpierence, and its as simple as that. You like to get worked up any time I throw your CQ count in your face, but in this case, it is relivent to this "debate", you've been playing this game for at least a year and a half, yet your not even at 5k worth of CQ. Now as I've argued many times in the past, a players CQ count might not represent their individual skill in pvp, it does represent how much time they've spent pvp'ing. You can put up any weak sauce argument about how "you only have to sit on a team to get cq" or that "you can take CQ's from duels" etc... etc... But the simple fact is, you dont rack up the count by much by leeching or duelstopping someone, its done via time spent pvp'ing. And in this case man, its obvious you havnt spent enough time pvp'ing.
And as for how it was back in the day where you loaded 1 tree and that was it, there was no problem in doing that back then. You would have your capped VD, and then have your 1 tree to pwn with, and while I cant speak for recursion or vector, the best pvp'ers on syntax in CR1 were never dedicated hackers, they used their 1 tree and pwned face with it. As someone who was concidered by many to be at least one ofhe best on syntax back in CR1, I can honestly say that I thought hackers were cannon fodder back then because they had an overall lack of resistance. Only people who griped about hackers were thoes who were to lazy to go farm the info/consumable subs to make anti's and to buy activity facilitator pills.
VT was essentially viral accuracy, the only tree which didn't need to load parts of Hacker was MKT, because they had the advantage of sneak, Hackers complained about their attacks not always hitting.....? and MAs, Gunmen and spies always complained about their effect timers because they could easily keep you bottlenecked for about 40 seconds, quite enough time to land a few LC2s and barrages ect, in IL though they did suck but, unless you can hit them with an enraging ability immediately they'd just roll out within a second. Simple
in any case using Hacker in CR1 and comparing MKT in CR2 while their are similarities it was a completely different ball game and most of the points are null.
In IL yes.... out of IL no, a good MKT should be able to keep the MA out of IL quite easily by throwing sever artery, deadly, neuro, ect. then they have abilities which root, and if the MKT has enough resistance (since you guys love using resistance in your arguments) then the damage from MA should be nullified, but since whenever I fight most MKTs they don't have that high resistance I can only assume that you don't feel there is a problem with the majority of MAs
Total. Rubbish. There is no way you can fight an MKT or MA without using a Hyper, now yes the system is quite random but without defense your opponent will hit you every time and roll through your rolls. Adding in 10% defense in each tree would increase defense by a fair bit and actually putting 20-30% in Hacker would be reasonable since MKTs usually if starting with sneak will beat a Hacker.
On an opponent with High resistance, which is in line with all other tree's and if you get states from knives you get added effects like powerless and stun so it's not as hard as it seems.
Yes it does allow a player to pull of a stealth attack, but I doubt it's to have no defense against it. Also CCtool would take of concealment because if you used the build to any extent you'd realize they are only stealthed because they have sneak going, CCtools breaks sneak so it will break conceal.
They do work I think with the resistance bonus's in the Awakened tree. I think.
Hacker is weak against MKT because it has less accuracy, defense, damage and generally sucks in IL and high damage specials usually enter IL with MKT's, the only thing Hacker has going for it is a bunch of debuffs, which if the MKT uses disable evasion to use punt, the chance of the Hacker using them is nil.
AnXieTy wrote:and btw, thats the only post of any length I plan on writing, so save your breath pylat, ripping my post apart to counter argue it isnt going to provoke a response from me other than the type of responses I've posted here already. So..."Please let me have the last word"?>.>
no, more like I've already stated my opinion that you can rip apart a tree/class in the game all you want to prove your point, but in the end it accomplishes nothing, hense why I dont want to waste my time ripping apart someone's post point for point until I end up writing more than a page and a half worth of crap that still isnt gonna get rid of someone's mental crutch for why they cant accomplish something.
does MA, hacker, and gunmanall have exactly the same accuracy bonus via abilities/clothing/attributes? I mean if this was the case this would make MKT atypical of all other trees in the game, but since every class is different, there is nothing atypical about 1 class in the game having the highest accuracy, just as there's nothing atypical of 1 class having the highest damage output. And a good MA can tear a MKT a new one FYI.
does MA, hacker, and gunmanall have exactly the same accuracy bonus via abilities/clothing/attributes? I mean if this was the case this would make MKT atypical of all other trees in the game, but since every class is different, there is nothing atypical about 1 class in the game having the highest accuracy, just as there's nothing atypical of 1 class having the highest damage output.
like I said this is the only valid point you make, yet it doesnt substatiate your argument aginst why fighting an MKT is so difficult. 99.95% of the time I pvp, I dont ever load hypersense, yet I have no problems fighting MKT's, just like 99.95% of the time I dont load hyperblock, yet I have no problems fighting MA's.As I said previously, CR2=random heap of garbage, if you cant fight an MKT now, adding in more defense isnt going to help you.
Arcanoloth wrote:MKT has a lot of timers that stack, more than any other tree and, as a matter of fact, as many as all the other trees combined. not really... and more than that, most MKT abilities that dont require stealth to pull off dont do that much damage by themselves.
Lets go over it, shall we? Poison Knife - 20sec reuse, 25sec effect Backroll Escape - 0sec reuse, 10sec effect Blinding Throw - 8sec reuse, 10sec effect Paralyzing Throw - 6sec reuse, 8sec effect Deadly Throw - 10sec reuse, 15sec effect Crippling Throw - 10sec reuse, 15sec effect Sever Artery - 15sec reuse, 30sec effect Wounding Throw - 10sec reuse, 50sec effectLets compare this to ALL abilities elsewhere, shall we? (abilities with chances for effects are ommitted, due to the unlikelyness of an overlap. Abilities which by game design cannot stack (ie: hacker DoT's) are also omitted) Body Shot - 8sec reuse, 10sec effect Disarming Shot - 8sec reuse, 10sec effect Supression Fire - 10sec reuse, 12sec effect Guard Breaker - 10sec reuse, 15sec effect Slow - 8sec reuse, 28sec effect Miasma 2.0 - 28sec reuse, 45sec effect Crash - 15 sec reuse, 28-42sec effect Code Flux - 30sec reuse, 60sec effectAnyone else see the problem here, or do I have to start weilding a sledgehammer to get my point across? EIGHT abilities in the MKT stack their effects, versus EIGHT in all other trees combined.
Poison Knife - 20sec reuse, 25sec effect Backroll Escape - 0sec reuse, 10sec effect Blinding Throw - 8sec reuse, 10sec effect Paralyzing Throw - 6sec reuse, 8sec effect Deadly Throw - 10sec reuse, 15sec effect Crippling Throw - 10sec reuse, 15sec effect Sever Artery - 15sec reuse, 30sec effect Wounding Throw - 10sec reuse, 50sec effect
Lets compare this to ALL abilities elsewhere, shall we? (abilities with chances for effects are ommitted, due to the unlikelyness of an overlap. Abilities which by game design cannot stack (ie: hacker DoT's) are also omitted) Body Shot - 8sec reuse, 10sec effect Disarming Shot - 8sec reuse, 10sec effect Supression Fire - 10sec reuse, 12sec effect Guard Breaker - 10sec reuse, 15sec effect Slow - 8sec reuse, 28sec effect Miasma 2.0 - 28sec reuse, 45sec effect Crash - 15 sec reuse, 28-42sec effect Code Flux - 30sec reuse, 60sec effect
Anyone else see the problem here, or do I have to start weilding a sledgehammer to get my point across? EIGHT abilities in the MKT stack their effects, versus EIGHT in all other trees combined.
this has been broken since CR2 hit, and rarely ever helped anyone in CR1 unless someone was exploiting it and doing it blue flaged to disrupt pvp.More than that, your argument in this aspect is completely pointless because well, disguise allows a player to pull off a stealth attack, is there anything in the game thats supposed to break a snipers concealment? Honestly this is one that shouldnt be fixed just because for 1 point of memory, it gimps and entire tree in the game.
Arcanoloth wrote:Thrown Resistance Bonuses are broken and do not work, making loading Calm Mind Calm Body not as effective as it could be, again gimping any players who fight MKT's. whats atypical about this? last I checked none of these abilities were working.
More than that, thats a design flaw and relic of how CR1 was, where both guns and MKT were qualified as ranged damage. Just like another relic of CR1 is the "sitting" debuff, where your ballistic defence becomes garbage, but your defence aginst anything else isnt hurt, you just get the damage modifier effect, hense why a MKT, MA, or hacker can miss a player thats sitting, but a gunman will hit everytime.
So while you want to complain that you cant hurt their accuracy, your wasting your time because thoes debuffs are virtually worthless in CR2 which is why during pvp its pretty rare that a hacker ever tries to tear down someone's accuracy or CT via debuffs like blind.
