a) The Machines don't trust the Cypherites, especially now that Veil is running the show.

b) EPN and Zion do work together despite the Zion Council disavowing them.

c) Veil and Pace dueled.  Big whoop.

d) Let's not get into the issue of breaking the truce when the lines are clearly blurred on all sides.

I tend to agree with the sentiments above: It is easy to read too much in to such incidents.

We are in the midst of a "Cold War" where many such interactions would commonly be regarded as isolated "flash-points" by all parties. Consider the numerous skirmishes which occurred over International Water, during the late 20th Century of Human History...

((I would also add that the format of Live Events would quickly become stale if the various Org. representatives could only spout the retoric of their official stand-point. That's the beauty of introducing "personalities" in to how events unfold.))

Posturing by the respective camps is ultimately fruitless ((though these boards would be pretty pointless if people weren't allowed to express their opinions :p )). I believe this incident holds little credible evidence, in establishing direct Machine support for the Cypherite cause.

I've had enough of this.

Machines, Zion will not tolerate Cypherite cooperation. If you do not cease cooperative relations with the Cypherites in full, we will take retaliatory actions.

We're supposed to be allies bound by the Truce, but you go behind our backs and not only work with, but helped to establish the same group of people who have constantly murdered and hindered our operatives, not to mention the city itself? And here, I thought that after the Cryptos incident, you might have learned that this is not something that we will take lying down.

We will not stand for this.

The Machines could easily say the same thing to Zion for their *continuing* work with EPN.  (Shimeda's fiasco with the three bluepills that ended up killing one of them was an EPN/Zion operation, as evidenced by the Zion operatives' presence and participation.) 

What's that old saying...oh yes.  "What's good for the goose is good for the gander."

Illyria

They'll do what they deem necessary to protect their **** system if it gets them all destroyed. With the advent of code bombs, one must ask, "do i really want to risk the lives of those I protect just so we can be friends with another group that would think nothing of killing those I am trying to protect, if it fit their purposes?"

You misunderstand us -- the group we are trying to protect are the bluepills. 

As I've said before, even if every redpill (including myself) is killed, as long as the Matrix and the six billion human beings connected to it survive, I will consider it a victory.  6 billion lives are worth more than a few hundred thousand.

Illyria

Neoteny wrote:

I've had enough of this.

Machines, Zion will not tolerate Cypherite cooperation. If you do not cease cooperative relations with the Cypherites in full, we will take retaliatory actions.

We're supposed to be allies bound by the Truce, but you go behind our backs and not only work with, but helped to establish the same group of people who have constantly murdered and hindered our operatives, not to mention the city itself? And here, I thought that after the Cryptos incident, you might have learned that this is not something that we will take lying down.

We will not stand for this.

The Machines could easily say the same thing to Zion for their *continuing* work with EPN.  (Shimeda's fiasco with the three bluepills that ended up killing one of them was an EPN/Zion operation, as evidenced by the Zion operatives' presence and participation.) 

What's that old saying...oh yes.  "What's good for the goose is good for the gander."

 

Illyria

The Council didn't tell them to go there, Niobe didn't tell them to go there, Ghost didn't tell them to go there, and the rest of the city and I sure as hell didn't tell them to go there. It was not a joint EPN/Zion affair in any way.

They chose to do it. And perhaps we will choose to distance ourselves from them.

The truth of the matter is, we have had numerous opportunities to work in conjunction with E Pluribus Neo, and we have shot down the majority of them (excluding, say, information on the General, or the Assassin, or god forbid - Cryptos and the Cypherites!)

The truth of the matter is, Zion does not not support EPN, no matter your conspiracies. However, our supposed "allies", the Machines, were discovered not only aiding the Cypherites, but to helping bring them out of infancy and into a true blue organization?

And after we catch them, what do they do?

Admit it, and continue to do so.

Where's the regard for the Truce, the regard for Zion?

Illyria22 wrote:

Neoteny wrote:

I've had enough of this.

Machines, Zion will not tolerate Cypherite cooperation. If you do not cease cooperative relations with the Cypherites in full, we will take retaliatory actions.

We're supposed to be allies bound by the Truce, but you go behind our backs and not only work with, but helped to establish the same group of people who have constantly murdered and hindered our operatives, not to mention the city itself? And here, I thought that after the Cryptos incident, you might have learned that this is not something that we will take lying down.

We will not stand for this.

The Machines could easily say the same thing to Zion for their *continuing* work with EPN.  (Shimeda's fiasco with the three bluepills that ended up killing one of them was an EPN/Zion operation, as evidenced by the Zion operatives' presence and participation.) 

What's that old saying...oh yes.  "What's good for the goose is good for the gander."

 

Illyria

The Council didn't tell them to go there, Niobe didn't tell them to go there, Ghost didn't tell them to go there, and the rest of the city and I sure as hell didn't tell them to go there. It was not a joint EPN/Zion affair in any way.

They chose to do it. And perhaps we will choose to distance ourselves from them.

The truth of the matter is, we have had numerous opportunities to work in conjunction with E Pluribus Neo, and we have shot down the majority of them (excluding, say, information on the General, or the Assassin, or god forbid - Cryptos and the Cypherites!)

The truth of the matter is, Zion does not not support EPN, no matter your conspiracies. However, our supposed "allies", the Machines, were discovered not only aiding the Cypherites, but to helping bring them out of infancy and into a true blue organization?

And after we catch them, what do they do?

Admit it, and continue to do so.

Where's the regard for the Truce, the regard for Zion?

The truth of the matter is, Zion does not not support EPN, no matter your conspiracies. However, our supposed "allies", the Machines, were discovered not only aiding the Cypherites, but to helping bring them out of infancy and into a true blue organization?

And after we catch them, what do they do?

Admit it, and continue to do so.

Where's the regard for the Truce, the regard for Zion?

I don't believe that the Machines aided the Cypherites other than giving them a "leader".  Like I've already mentioned, the Masked existed long before Cryptos and would have existed regardless of his presence.  Remember Geermaskered and Enmascardo (sp?)?  Hell, remember Cypher? 

Yes, by giving the Cypherites a leader, they nurtured them.  But what proof do you have that the machines did it to be malicious to Zion?  Are you going to blame the Machines for humans who made a choice to act violently despite Cryptos wishes?  I believe that the Machines inserted Cryptos so they pacify the the organization.  Did it work?  Not very well I guess.  But hey, nothing ever goes just right sometimes.

Skill wrote:

They'll do what they deem necessary to protect their **** system if it gets them all destroyed. With the advent of code bombs, one must ask, "do i really want to risk the lives of those I protect just so we can be friends with another group that would think nothing of killing those I am trying to protect, if it fit their purposes?"

You misunderstand us -- the group we are trying to protect are the bluepills. 

As I've said before, even if every redpill (including myself) is killed, as long as the Matrix and the six billion human beings connected to it survive, I will consider it a victory.  6 billion lives are worth more than a few hundred thousand.

 

Illyria

Neoteny wrote:

The truth of the matter is, Zion does not not support EPN, no matter your conspiracies. However, our supposed "allies", the Machines, were discovered not only aiding the Cypherites, but to helping bring them out of infancy and into a true blue organization?

And after we catch them, what do they do?

Admit it, and continue to do so.

Where's the regard for the Truce, the regard for Zion?

I don't believe that the Machines aided the Cypherites other than giving them a "leader".  Like I've already mentioned, the Masked existed long before Cryptos and would have existed regardless of his presence.  Remember Geermaskered and Enmascardo (sp?)?  Hell, remember Cypher?

I've made this point myself. The Cypherites existed before the Machines. It doesn't justify the fact that the Machines helped streamline the organization by instating an overwritten Crytpos.

Yes, by giving the Cypherites a leader, they nurtured them.  But what proof do you have that the machines did it to be malicious to Zion?  Are you going to blame the Machines for humans who made a choice to act violently despite Cryptos wishes?  I believe that the Machines inserted Cryptos so they pacify the the organization.  Did it work?  Not very well I guess.  But hey, nothing ever goes just right sometimes.

I never said they did it with malicious intent towards Zion. But don't you think they could have figured it out that a group named after one of Zion's worst traitors wouldn't have been such a smashing success in our eyes? After a few operations, hell, even after a few months, years of operations, don't you think that they should have seen the fact that we were combating them?

If they had such control over Cryptos, and, by extension, the organization, as you had claimed, why couldn't they have put an end to it? Why didn't they terminate the experiment when they had the chance?

But most of all, didn't they realize how detrimental this would be to the Truce if and when discovered? And they chose to take the risk in the first place?

Perhaps even more importantly - Now that it has been exposed, why don't they stop NOW?

I quote Agent Pace, "Also, it was very kind of Veil to arrive and offer some combat practice. Although relations with the Cypherites have been strained lately, with this type of inter-organizational cooperation and camaraderie, I think we will soon understand each other very well indeed."

That message doesn't exactly say "Alright, we admit we were wrong, and we're going to halt what working relationship we had in order to preserve the Truce, and our relations with Zion."

This doesn't exactly give me the impression that they value Zion, or even the Truce, for that matter.

*cough*

Agent Gray: Operative, the Zionite known as Cryptos was overwritten by a Machine program years ago. This program's purpose was to form a group of humans dedicated to the task of preventing Zion from destabilizing the System by awakening more than the allotted 1% of the Matrix' population. At the beginning of the truce period, it was a difficult task for us to control these excess awakenings without causing an overreaction in Zion.
The group came to be known as the Cypherites. Under the overwritten Cryptos' leadership, they have been effective in reducing excess awakenings. However, Seraph's attack has disabled Cryptos, and revealed his Machine overwriting. This has led to a certain amount of...political fallout with Zion, and even among Cypherites. Agent Pace will describe your next task.

just putting that our there. Please continue.

*cough*

Agent Gray: Operative, the Zionite known as Cryptos was overwritten by a Machine program years ago. This program's purpose was to form a group of humans dedicated to the task of preventing Zion from destabilizing the System by awakening more than the allotted 1% of the Matrix' population. At the beginning of the truce period, it was a difficult task for us to control these excess awakenings without causing an overreaction in Zion.
The group came to be known as the Cypherites. Under the overwritten Cryptos' leadership, they have been effective in reducing excess awakenings. However, Seraph's attack has disabled Cryptos, and revealed his Machine overwriting. This has led to a certain amount of...political fallout with Zion, and even among Cypherites. Agent Pace will describe your next task.

just putting that our there. Please continue.

I see.  Well played there and thanks for the pretty colors!

But again, how does this violate the truce?  If the truce states that Zion is only allowed to extract the "alotted 1%" of the population and Zion exceeds that...who is at fault then?  See the problem is that there is NO DOCTRINE of policies that we have available that outlines the conditions, rules and regulations of the Truce.  Is there a clause that clearly states the Machines cannot govern the extraction of coppertops?  Or are you all just upset that someone was overwritten to be controlled and that its so "inhumane" that it simply MUST be a violation?

Regardless of it all, the change in Cryptos not only saved him but it also saved ALL of the lives he wanted to destroy via virtual nukes.  It's certainly seems convenient that Neo's very own program that resided in him. by the machines, can be overlooked because it was "to Zion's advantage".  Stopping Cryptos from destroying the truce should also be considered in our best interests.

Look the point is that you feel invaded and that your privacy is at stake.  You don't care about Cryptos anymore than I do.  You feel that this makes Zion better than the machines just because their spies were revealed.  So here's what you want to hear:

"Yeah, we inserted programs to spy on people and control others.  We're mean old bad machines.  Will you ever forgive us?"

The Boogeymen are coming

..... Go back to sleep

      to the rythem of the war drums