GoDGiVeR wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

GoDGiVeR wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

99% isn't allowed to be aware, have it offerd, or even persue the choice thus they are bound to stay in the Matrix.

Actually that is wrong. All 100% have the choice, but only 1% are aware of it. The other 99% are not not (which means yes) allowed to be aware of it, have it offered or being able to persue the choice. The problem is: They are simply unaware of it and don't "need" to become aware of it as they have chosen (according to the choice EVERYONE has been given) that this is the world they want to live in. But that doesn't mean that they can't change that choice of theirs at any given time.  But forcing them to chance their choice by the means you stated Gami, well...

Wrong? Oh so then that little mission set in the Machine criticle archives where they were tracking down a Zion ship that sent out a few emails to the masses to locate potential bluepills never happend right? I believe there reasoning for trying to locate it bwas because it was sent to everyone and not people in the 1% that accoridng to them are allowed to be freed which was a violation of the truce. Right now no one outside the 1% is allowed to know about the truth, to be offerd a chance to find out about the truth, or even allowed to know it exicest outside the subconcious.

Pfft, that's inside information then (that archieve). I think that anyone in the system can adress themselves to those topics, with boundaries (of course, but unfortunately) given. But actually it is inevitable nowadays since the redpill and Exile population grows and their (passive and active) influence gets stronger but not yet stronger than Mashine control. It is a matter of time until the Mashines either drastically seperate us from the public or let them roam around more freely. What do you think is more possible?

It doesnt matter, the fact is that people are not being allowed to hear something or even haveing the chance to decide if they want to hear it. Freedom of speech aparently does not apply when dealing with the truth and that is what needs to be changed. Stop the censorship, stop babying everyone and allow huamnity to think for it's self again.

So you're for the second version (marked). I can't say that the censorship is good but neither can I say that's totally evil since it keeps us at bay and Zion safe.

As I stated earlier, giving everyone, depsite of their own subconscious choice, the choice to take the blue pill or take the red pill, the experience will ultimately alter their subconscious leading to a dramatic increase of those who want free and thus unbalancing the system of the Matrix as seen by the Oracle (she forewsaw a balance at 1%). This will inexorably lead to a cataclysmic system crash ((the same way it should have gone when Neo chose to save Trinity instead of reinserting to the prime program and resetting the Zion/Matrix cycle. But Neo found a way... you know that part. I say this OOC cause my character doesn't know this.)) and therfore to the nullifying of the truth and the upcoming extinction of the human race. If the Mashines 
could survive without humanity is another question but they wouldn't allow us to get that far, even if that means
to break the truce.

And as I said earler no it wont. The bluepill, why are you people forgetting about that pill. What it does, what its there for, why Cypherites use it on people and themselves. The bluepill puts a person into a deep sleep that when they wake up from they think everything taht happend to them that day was just a dream. The only people this wont work on is those that are apart of the 1%. The rest of them aftering takieng are in dream land and when they wake up they forget about it. I't wont increase it, its there so those that they who take it go back to there peacefuly lives they don't want to give up and so they stay happy.

The bluepill cannot alter the subconscious as you belief. It erases your memory but if I may draw an anology to Computers: You can erase any data you like but some parts will always be reconstructable. Of course there are more enhanced eraser programs that work so efficient that nearly no data can be reconstructed but that's still not enough and such programs are rarely used. According to this analogy and the fact that the humans of Zion produced and worked on the design of both pills, one can say that the erasing program of the blue pill is not at an level of efficiency (although Mashine Blue Pills of nowadays might be, although I have no knowledge that they produce some that are different to those of Zion) where the memory can be erased so that in  most cases no data (the splinter) remains. Maybe you are lucky and remove the splinter from their mind, but maybe you're not and the splinter remains. Your argument only is able to slow down the process I said to the degree of efficiency of the blue pill.

So what your saying then is that any person that has taken the bluepill after going threw the procedures we have now is going to wake up? Thats what your saying right? that the offering of the choice affects the subconcious and that cant be undone?

When did I say that the obvious flaw in the deletion programming of the blue pill awakes you sooner or later? I said that there's the possibility that the splinter stays, even after the process. And no, the choice can never be undone. It will affect that person forever. This doesn't necessarily make ppl wake up again, though.

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to disagree. if this was true humans would be wakeing up left and right without takeing pills becasue there subconcious was alterd and this entire procedue would a danger period because if you so much as talk to a person they wake up. You said it yourself the subconcoius is not something that is easly manipulated so how is something like this going to affect it? It's not and if it does the bluepill takes care of it.

"You didn't come here to make the choice you've alreayd made it. Your here to understand why you made it" Thats what the pills do, they offer an explination of why your about to choose red or blue.

The blue pill solidifies the subconscious choice that you do not want to know the truth. Of course the experience of that choice could be still stuck afterwards. But those who take the blue after already being free already made the other choice once and thus there's this possibility too. You take it to the extreme though. What I speak of is a small margin of error along the line, which is of course not unimportant. But according to your belief the blue pill takes care of all problems. The choice cannot be undone. And the effect on the subconscious choice of rejecting or accepting the Matrix through taking one of the pills should not be taken all too easy. This is a new topic, since during the war and the Zion/Matrix cycles, there wasn't enough influence and chance through redpills to show this.
Of course, if you take the pills once the affect would be unknowingly (but definitely very) small. But if the process is repeated (which could very well happen these days) the aftereffects could be unwanted and lead unwanted awakening through "bluepill overdose". ((OMG new term creations at it's best )) if you give the blues the choice to think about the choice the margin of error could be widened, the same way it could be widened by every sight of Matrix bending. Heck, it's of course not confirmed neither unconfirmed, even the "invisible" Code Pulse could affect blues at a very small level.
 

EPN? You can have "big ideas" and a "vision" all you want, and can relase your "manifesto" at will. But any actions taken outside of offering the red or blue pill to the applicable 1%, and you will be outside the bounds of the Truce

/agreed. 

Illyria

Amazing how hard people will argue to defend their position now that they've seen the truth about us, isn't it, guys?

Look at them, fighting so desperately to cling to their own false assumptions. Just like a bluepill who isn't ready to be freed.

This just goes to show you, no matter what, people are just going to keep their minds closed and think what they want to think just because that's what they've been told.

Actions speak louder than words, I suppose.

Pfft, that's inside information then (that archieve). I think that anyone in the system can adress themselves to those topics, with boundaries (of course, but unfortunately) given. But actually it is inevitable nowadays since the redpill and Exile population grows and their (passive and active) influence gets stronger but not yet stronger than Mashine control. It is a matter of time until the Mashines either drastically seperate us from the public or let them roam around more freely. What do you think is more possible?

It doesnt matter, the fact is that people are not being allowed to hear something or even haveing the chance to decide if they want to hear it. Freedom of speech aparently does not apply when dealing with the truth and that is what needs to be changed. Stop the censorship, stop babying everyone and allow huamnity to think for it's self again.

So you're for the second version (marked). I can't say that the censorship is good but neither can I say that's totally evil since it keeps us at bay and Zion safe.

We simply want there to be no restirctions for any human when dealing with the choice. Nothing more nothing less.

---

 

The bluepill cannot alter the subconscious as you belief. It erases your memory but if I may draw an anology to Computers: You can erase any data you like but some parts will always be reconstructable. Of course there are more enhanced eraser programs that work so efficient that nearly no data can be reconstructed but that's still not enough and such programs are rarely used. According to this analogy and the fact that the humans of Zion produced and worked on the design of both pills, one can say that the erasing program of the blue pill is not at an level of efficiency (although Mashine Blue Pills of nowadays might be, although I have no knowledge that they produce some that are different to those of Zion) where the memory can be erased so that in  most cases no data (the splinter) remains. Maybe you are lucky and remove the splinter from their mind, but maybe you're not and the splinter remains. Your argument only is able to slow down the process I said to the degree of efficiency of the blue pill.

So what your saying then is that any person that has taken the bluepill after going threw the procedures we have now is going to wake up? Thats what your saying right? that the offering of the choice affects the subconcious and that cant be undone?

When did I say that the obvious flaw in the deletion programming of the blue pill awakes you sooner or later? I said that there's the possibility that the splinter stays, even after the process. And no, the choice can never be undone. It will affect that person forever. This doesn't necessarily make ppl wake up again, though.

Forgive me then I misunderstood. The splinter will only stay if the person that takes the bluepill was apart of the 1%. For them there subconsious has already determined they are to live in missery within the simulation and unless they can break free of it they wont be happy. How do you fix this for someone that subconcously wants freedom but conciously doesnt? I dont know and can't say I have ever experenced this and I believe it is an area that a specialst would need to examine and figure.

However for those that do not have the splinter the process does nothing to them. As you said it is very hard to alter the subconcoius. A thirty minute talk won't do enough to change it forever and if it does in the slightest then it is something that the bluepill can easily erase completly. Thats just how it works. 

When they take the bluepill those that were happy stay happy. Those that were upset stay upset.

---

The blue pill solidifies the subconscious choice that you do not want to know the truth. Of course the experience of that choice could be still stuck afterwards. But those who take the blue after already being free already made the other choice once and thus there's this possibility too. You take it to the extreme though. What I speak of is a small margin of error along the line, which is of course not unimportant. But according to your belief the blue pill takes care of all problems. The choice cannot be undone. And the effect on the subconscious choice of rejecting or accepting the Matrix through taking one of the pills should not be taken all too easy. This is a new topic, since during the war and the Zion/Matrix cycles, there wasn't enough influence and chance through redpills to show this.
Of course, if you take the pills once the affect would be unknowingly (but definitely very) small. But if the process is repeated (which could very well happen these days) the aftereffects could be unwanted and lead unwanted awakening through "bluepill overdose". ((OMG new term creations at it's best )) if you give the blues the choice to think about the choice the margin of error could be widened, the same way it could be widened by every sight of Matrix bending. Heck, it's of course not confirmed neither unconfirmed, even the "invisible" Code Pulse could affect blues at a very small level.
 

The process would only stick in the minds of those who subconously wanted out. For anyone else it is but a dream because the world was perfect to them and they had no reason to doubt. If a mind is freed and wants back in then it will continue to live happily back in the simulation untill they reawaken. But as it is now anyone who has taken a bluepill is offlimits even if apart of the 1%. The need for this "rule" is for exactlly the reason you put forth. However I believe (if I read right) that the siutation you are discribing is what happens when a peron who has taken the blue pill comes back and asks to be freed. Again this is getting into an area that I can not come up with an anwser for. There mind aparently subconlusly wants to be free of the world but they themselves do not.  Pychatric help could help with this maybe but i do not know. The situation Isn't exaclty one that is seen to often and I believe this would be an area that the Machines would need to take control of and decided.

I personly would let them choose whatever it is they want. They want out, let them be free. They want back in allow them to be reinsurted, they want back out again, then give it to them. Sooner or later they will find the world where they are happy.

GoDGiVeR wrote:

I personly would let them choose whatever it is they want. They want out, let them be free. They want back in allow them to be reinsurted, they want back out again, then give it to them. Sooner or later they will find the world where they are happy.

Yeah but the question now is. Is a multiple switch between the realities and thus also the multiple use of the blue pill healthy? Well, I'm no scientist but I'd say no. Of course it hasn't happened so far as far as I know.

There is no point in continuing the arguments here.

Our manifesto was not published here to invite your challenges. Although we had no doubt there would be some, and we do not fear these questions, this was designed to be a statement of who we are and what we intend to do.

You may continue to argue your points, to pick apart our declaration, but know that your arguments will not deter us from our mission.

The Machines are the ones who must realize failure. No matter how hard they try to control the human race, they can never be rid of even the smallest percentage of us who will never accept them as masters.

There is no point in continuing the arguments here.

Our manifesto was not published here to invite your challenges. Although we had no doubt there would be some, and we do not fear these questions, this was designed to be a statement of who we are and what we intend to do.

You may continue to argue your points, to pick apart our declaration, but know that your arguments will not deter us from our mission.

The Machines are the ones who must realize failure. No matter how hard they try to control the human race, they can never be rid of even the smallest percentage of us who will never accept them as masters.

 

You know something everyone is caught up defending their own views and pointing fingers to the other side. But the truth of the matter is Machines as a whole have turned mankind into slaves regardless of their "good intentions".

At this point putting aside any and all affiliation with zion,mero,cyph or epn  at the end of the day we are all human

And for that reason we must put aside those loyalties we have made and think about the bigger picture.

Is our current reality what we want for humanity? Is it in the best interest of humanity?

Again forget about your loyalties and your tranperent hate/love towards one another and embrace the bigger picture.

 Are we as humans going to allow our own creation to bring us to our knees for an indefinite amount of time?

You know something everyone is caught up defending their own views and pointing fingers to the other side. But the truth of the matter is Machines as a whole have turned mankind into slaves regardless of their "good intentions".

 

Are you not free?  Do the machines still attack humans and not allow them to roam the earth at thier will?

The blue pills you know do not know they are in a dream world, and they live what would be a normal life if they had not destroyed thier own real world. To me that does not sound like slavery. That sounds like a 2nd chance and a paradise. Those who reject the system ON THIER OWN (for saftey reasons) are free to leave and live a diffrent way life. One that suites them better than the matrix. 99.9% of the blue pills like thier surrounding and accept it. How can 99.9% of the population be wrong?

At the 1st sight of a Human doing backwork for the machines while a robot whips them, then i will agree that humans are enslaved. But as it stands, that has not/will not happen. Bluepills are simply, asleep, and living out thier lives.

There is no point in continuing the arguments here.

Our manifesto was not published here to invite your challenges. Although we had no doubt there would be some, and we do not fear these questions, this was designed to be a statement of who we are and what we intend to do.

You may continue to argue your points, to pick apart our declaration, but know that your arguments will not deter us from our mission.

The Machines are the ones who must realize failure. No matter how hard they try to control the human race, they can never be rid of even the smallest percentage of us who will never accept them as masters.

 

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

There is no point in continuing the arguments here.

Our manifesto was not published here to invite your challenges. Although we had no doubt there would be some, and we do not fear these questions, this was designed to be a statement of who we are and what we intend to do.

You may continue to argue your points, to pick apart our declaration, but know that your arguments will not deter us from our mission.

The Machines are the ones who must realize failure. No matter how hard they try to control the human race, they can never be rid of even the smallest percentage of us who will never accept them as masters.

 

The machines dont want you to accept them as your masters you idiot!  They want you to accept them as your EQUALS.

"repeatedly personally attacking someone is no way to win an argument."

I'd like to belive it and want to believe it but from what have seen and still see I can't believe it. Not yet. The truce put us as equals. Zion and 01 just two cities carrying on, but one side couldn't give up ithe control it ocne had over the other and still can't. They have to know whats going on inside, have to have access to everything, have to always maintain this since of power over the other. And as long as they keep it up, then we will never be equals. One side is always trying to push the other down. When they stop trying to police the world then we can be equals again but untill then exepect a rebellion.

GoDGiVeR wrote:

I personly would let them choose whatever it is they want. They want out, let them be free. They want back in allow them to be reinsurted, they want back out again, then give it to them. Sooner or later they will find the world where they are happy.

Yeah but the question now is. Is a multiple switch between the realities and thus also the multiple use of the blue pill healthy? Well, I'm no scientist but I'd say no. Of course it hasn't happened so far as far as I know.

As i said before that final piece, it would require a specialst to make the final call I would think but the situation is very unlikely and created by asking "what if".  

((Imax, I'm gonna ask you nicely, as a favor to a fellow player: please do not allow the hostility to spill over to OOC posts. You got a personal beef with a person, you take it up in PM's to that person. Leave the rest of us out of it.

Do not get this thread locked.))

((Imax, I'm gonna ask you nicely, as a favor to a fellow player: please do not allow the hostility to spill over to OOC posts. You got a personal beef with a person, you take it up in PM's to that person. Leave the rest of us out of it.

Do not get this thread locked.))