psilody wrote:

To start with, there are laws regarding the behavior of energy in our universe, such as the Laws of Thermodynamics. These laws state, among other things, that energy in our universe can be neither created nor destroyed. It can only be transferred from one form to another.

psilody wrote:

We need food to produce chemical reactions to create energy.

 

Clear enough?

((The issue of fusion is quite simply that anything that has mass has energy and vica versa - even a glass of water has the potential to liberate vast amounts of energy - the trick is to induce a stable form of Fusion (rather than the more typical explosion) from which power may be drawn  safely over a period of time. The physical evidence at hand denies this as a likely process to be taking place with regard to the human body here...fusion is more likely limited to the waste products only promoting electrochemical processes as the energy source of the the actual living body.

The rational approach to any energy situation is to examine what resources are available and what is the most efficient convertor of that resource into a form of energy that can be used. The human body is a convertor of energy, if it can be maintained by substances otherwise useless to the machines (incorporated with a degree of recycling) it 'may' be a more efficient way to produce power than something they can construct.....

While sustaining the populace on their own dead is pretty unlikely it could be supported by other sources - we do not know all life on earth to be dead certainly mosses, fungi and more can grow with little to no light, the ocean floor devoid of 99% of light can again still support certain forms of life - difficult to fish of course....at least for humans - the only issue is making the stuff edible - but again if you can vent the human digestive system quick enough you can actually consume even semi toxic susbtances to nourishing effect.

Close analysis of this area draws attention to many other 'anomalies' in the Matrix - if we apply and restrict ourselfs to 20th century science we fall foul of many other problems, why leave the humans with arms and legs, from an efficiency pov simply no need to support anything beyond the vital organs, the concept of the Matrix as a whole begins to look weak and lose conviction this is why it is dangerous to the point of stupidity to shine bright lights on the strings and pulleys of this world - we have accepted these foundations and should move forward with sufficient pace to sustain our 'suspension of disbelief' it doesnt matter how clever the subsequent reevaluation leaves us the damage is far reaching and throws credibility issues into every facet of the world - if you remove credibility and consistency from a make beleive world it can only collapse!))

((Thanks to several of you for defending a few points for me. appreciate that.

Tytanya- I would still argue that the extraction of the remaining Organic matter sources on the planet would be more energy consuming than simply generating energy from other sources that should still be available.

As you say, there are all kinds of story/plot issues that come creeping up here. Its quite honestly astonishing to me that the Dev's have even let the storyline stray into this arena. I mean, let sleeping dogs lie, right? It says to me that a) maybe they dont know what a can of worms this is or b) there is some new plot development lurking beneath here. Maybe the Merv will discover that the Machines Aren't/can't be using us as their primary energy source.

If so, it could substantially change the way we view the human/machine relationship. Frankly, I expect the Dev's to sweep this right back under the carpet. as you say

" it is dangerous to the point of stupidity to shine bright lights on the strings and pulleys of this world "

I wanted this discussion to illustrate just how close the Stroyline is coming to doing this.

Thanks again for the input from everyone))

psilody, I agree that the devs are really making a mistake by drawing attention to this whole issue.  It's pretty clear that the original intent behind the line "combined with a form of fusion"
 is "It's too high-tech for anyone to understand.  Pay no attention to the fusion behind the curtain."  Maybe we should all just go back to thinking like we did when the first film came out and going "Okay, they're super-advanced, and they figured out a way to make it work.  w00t for the machines, I guess."

QFT.

There's no sense wasting time trying to come up with logic behind the inner workings of a science-fiction story.  Although it's admirable and definitely great conversation but it's ultimately nothing we need to know.

((The only way I can see it not being a mistake, is if they take the Matrix a whole new direction. You could run the storyline into alternate motives, scenarios, purposes for the MAtrix etc. That Could be quite interseting. Its not som much that the Matrix is impossible, just that its technically Scientifically impossible for it to function as an elctricity/energy generator.

One of the dangers with a really extended, deep sci-fi plot is that its NOT fantasy. You can't just fall back on magic or something to explain away discrepencies. You either have to avoid the discrepencies or make use of them. Id personally like to see the alternatives explored, I think there could be some really interesting RPing come out of a major twist in the Matrix plot! Certainly more intersting than "Im right! You're Worng! Lets fight!"" width="15" height="15" />)

((The only way I can see it not being a mistake, is if they take the Matrix a whole new direction. You could run the storyline into alternate motives, scenarios, purposes for the MAtrix etc. That Could be quite interseting. Its not som much that the Matrix is impossible, just that its technically Scientifically impossible for it to function as an elctricity/energy generator.

One of the dangers with a really extended, deep sci-fi plot is that its NOT fantasy. You can't just fall back on magic or something to explain away discrepencies. You either have to avoid the discrepencies or make use of them. Id personally like to see the alternatives explored, I think there could be some really interesting RPing come out of a major twist in the Matrix plot! Certainly more intersting than "Im right! You're Worng! Lets fight!"" />)

((Chemuel- Ok sure, no problem with that. They may indeed.

If they have such amazing technology and energy producing capacities, Why do they need US?

And on the cloning aging thing, it would seem that we can be extracted at many ages, see Kid and the orphan. If we are accelerated to adulthood, then you start introducing issues in other areas of the plotline. You also still need energy and material to accelerate an organism to maturity, and you cannot get more energy out of the body than you put into it.))

Resorting to quatum and string theory is really demonstrating the level of damage already done - credibility and conviction in this world requires something less esoteric and frankly more imaginitive. It also raises genuine issues of misrepresentation, this is the Matrix Online, not 'A Matrix online' or some parallel world which randomly includes certain characters....

The story is questioning aspects, foundations in fact, which cannot be rationally supported given todays understanding but unfortunately the mechanisms used to raise these questions have been to call upon that limited understanding also going on to belittle and deny the validity of the other tools we been forced to rely on in the past with a knock on effect that confounds or contradicts other supporting aspects of the world - sadly without any other tools at our disposal we are left floundering and helpless.

The cumulative effect is to render the player completely unable to discern any facts of any kind, therefore everything degenerates into subjective argument/discussion with no possibility of objective resolution (well except an ooc edict from a dev perhaps) - this is in fact evidenced in the events threads, where there have been some great discussions but ones that only highlight the complete impossibility of making progress - the story has left itself nothing to build upon and no where it can go that you can believe). Answers given IC carry absolutely no weight, information gleaned from source inside the matrix are unsupportable - no matter how well thought out.

It may be, and I suspect it is, the case that greater reveleations will attempt to resolve the outstanding issues, but the damage has been done and the consequent cracks have been revealed and will remain, once you have denied the validity of the only options open to you to learn, subsequent discoveries become worthless

From an RP pov at least the story has literally shot itself in the foot..... maybe even the head!   

Well that's the problem though.  People are too fascinated with how the magician does the trick rather than simply appreciating the trick for what it is:  Entertainment

Well that's the problem though.  People are too fascinated with how the magician does the trick rather than simply appreciating the trick for what it is:  Entertainment

 

Garu wrote:

Well that's the problem though.  People are too fascinated with how the magician does the trick rather than simply appreciating the trick for what it is:  Entertainment

 

Thats just Human nature, to try to understand something, to learn and grow.

And therein lies the problem.  It's sci-fi.  Just enjoy it.

Well that's the problem though.  People are too fascinated with how the magician does the trick rather than simply appreciating the trick for what it is:  Entertainment

 

Unsure whether you have followed the Merov Criticals where these points are raised specifically but my point of concern is that the story itself is demanding these questions to be asked, in doing so the 'believebility' of the world is shaken but worse the mechanisms used to raise the question have a cascade effect in undermining many many other areas of the matrix - it has literally shone its light and forced us to look on the strings and pulleys of this trick.

There was a lot of 'nearly science' that made the Matrix so persuasive, couple that with a frenetic pace and a swamp of interesting characters and we had enough to occupy ourselves so we could overlook the odd discrepency. However take us backwards, remove or contradict our learning to date and revisit these ideas, you call into question the facts we had relied and it forces us to see things we really didnt want to, the trick ceases to exist, we cease to be involved and the potential entertainment is significantly less than it could be.

The analogy you use is literally the problem I am trying to avert, we can see how its done - its only a game - cannot be the only explanation, the imagination needs more, the story has a responsibility to convince us sufficiently to 'suspend that disbelief' atm it is actively doing the exact opposite.