GamiSB- Actually, I'm going to have to defend this discussion as being extremely relevant. You've stated that it won't be meaningfull until we have real peace. How can we achieve a real peace without a functional treaty in place?

 This thread has explored the myriad of ways in which the previous treaty failed, and such exploration leaves us better educated about what to expect from future treatises. without such knowledge, wed be likely to walk into another peace that has no defined expectations, which would be ridiculous. In order to reach peace, the sides involved need to negotiate ALL of the necessary details and arrangements, and set a framework for resolving future issues. Knowing how we failed to do that the first time is, I believe, vital to getting it right the next time.

GamiSB wrote:

If you want to believe that minds more open tot he truth then even Neo's are out their go ahead but I'm afraid you will be disapointed when you find out their are none. Zion already makes it clear that it's no pleasure cruise that the potential is about to go on. Hell even bluepills can see how the Machine tries to keep this truth out of reach meaning their must be something their that isn't pretty. I can't understand why people insist on blameing Zion for every Cypher out there. Zion's been doing this for over 100 years now. Is it posible that just maybe it was the potential's fault? God forbid they be the ones who got in over their head and now have to pay the price.

In short, discussion over the problems of the truce is pointless now and Zion's system of awakening people is fine as it is. Maybe once we get a real peace we can reopen all this because only then would it even be worth concidering such ideas.

The system may be fine but that doesn't mean the people using it are fine.  All I see above is "Zion is right, everyone else needs to deal".  That's incredibly arrogant and selfish.

Both sides have made poor decisions caused by prejudice and ignorance.  Both sides presumed when all they needed to do was ask.  Both sides failed to proactively work towards furthering the Truce.  Both sides spent their time worrying about how the other would betray them and look at where we're at.

No truce, no peace, no future.  Congratulations, ignorance wins again.  Neo broke the cycle and we've successfully managed to mend it back together.  The key to the future is in cooperation, communication and the ability to reevaluate our methods by understanding where we failed in the past.

And for the record, I think that Zion is at least partially responsible for the Cypherites.  You take the risk of awakening someone who will resent you every time you offer the red pill.  It may be the machine's fault for organizing them but there wouldn't be anything to organize if they hadn't been awakened.  That's just the way I see it.

Your seeing what you want to see but that was not and is not my stand. I know first hand that Zion can screw up and has. But I also know first hand that many Cypherites choose that redpill because they truely wanted to know. Can't handle the truth then I'm sorry but you were warned. If you were force fed it or tricked into it then i'm sorry but their are other options then murder to being about justice. Zion wants radicals running their recuriting as much as the Cypherites do. Ever tried takeing your case up with the Council?

I agree that we did throw ourselves into this mess. But its the same thing. No one wants to take the blame and insist on pointing fingers at everyone but themselves.

I know first hand that Zion can screw up and has. But I also know first hand that many Cypherites choose that redpill because they truely wanted to know. Can't handle the truth then I'm sorry but you were warned.

It's natural for everyone to avoid responsibility.  We all feel justified that we are making the right decisions based on our beliefs.  To expect anyone to admit their ideals and methods were wrong is a bit too optimistic, even for me.  It happens but unfortunately not as often as it should.  Otherwise we might actually make some progress.

Getting back to our masked friends:

Would you be willing to say that everyone is properly warned to an extent that they should not be surprised when they awaken? 

GamiSB wrote:

I know first hand that Zion can screw up and has. But I also know first hand that many Cypherites choose that redpill because they truely wanted to know. Can't handle the truth then I'm sorry but you were warned.

It's natural for everyone to avoid responsibility.  We all feel justified that we are making the right decisions based on our beliefs.  To expect anyone to admit their ideals and methods were wrong is a bit too optimistic, even for me.  It happens but unfortunately not as often as it should.  Otherwise we might actually make some progress.

Getting back to our masked friends:

Would you be willing to say that everyone is properly warned to an extent that they should not be surprised when they awaken? 

That everyone is properly warned? No, thats a foolish ideal to believe could ever happen. Do I believe that most are warned to the extent they should be? Yes. As I mentiond before the extent of the truth makes it impossible to fully explain to someone what it is. Are their areas to expand on? Maybe but they would be hard to find without risking your credibility to they potential. We can't give them details of a broken baren wasteland and of Machine overlords. We can though exaplain that it is difficult to accept and not for the weak of heart. That you must be fully commented to wanting to find this truth and that you are risking everything you have ever known and can never go back.

That everyone is properly warned? No, thats a foolish ideal to believe could ever happen. Do I believe that most are warned to the extent they should be? Yes. As I mentiond before the extent of the truth makes it impossible to fully explain to someone what it is. Are their areas to expand on? Maybe but they would be hard to find without risking your credibility to they potential. We can't give them details of a broken baren wasteland and of Machine overlords. We can though exaplain that it is difficult to accept and not for the weak of heart. That you must be fully commented to wanting to find this truth and that you are risking everything you have ever known and can never go back.

I'm inclined to agree with much of what you've said.  The truth isn't easy.  I just can't be foolish enough not to empathize with the Cypherites a little, despite the fact that I don't agree with their methods.  I also think it's foolish for Zion to be surprised when those they awaken turn on them in the most violent of manners.  Some can handle the truth, some run from it.  That should always be kept in mind when offering the pills. 

At any rate I fear we may be verring too far from Psilody's topic.  Therefore I concede to discuss anything further unless it's related to the main topic, out of respect to the OP.

/formalbow 

Garu- Actually, you guys haven't really strayed to far off my topic at all. A number of the early posts in this thread suggested that part of the reason the Machines revoked the Truce was fear that they couldn't control how many people Zion was freeing. I also saw at least one post that suggested that NOT telling people the nature of the Matrix was also a stipulation of the "Treaty" (If there ever was one really).

I think we need to reevaluate how we go about freeing people, and some of that might involve a renegotian of this aspect of our relationship as well. I think that there are ways you could approach explaining to people the nature of the Matrix, if you have already identified them as being possible to awaken.

and Gami, I really think there are many people on all sides of this conflict who are interested in peace. The fact that Zion command and the Machine overlords are at a loggerhead is rather frustrating. But the more undercurrent we can generate, the more hope there is that these parties will become cognizant of how estranged they are from the poeple they claim to represent (err well, I guess the Machines don't represent any people, so yeah, I guess i'm focused here more on Zion command. I guess I'm also aiming at Machine Operatives who might be uncomfortable with the present situation, and could initiate some dialog with their superiors, for what its worth.)

Peace has to begin somewhere. We don't have Neo to just create it for us this time. That means we need to follow the traditional route of engaging in dialog, and trying to encourage understanding. I hope this dialog has contributed to that movement in some way.