Steelle wrote:

Omega0 wrote:

Also, I wasn't asking you to name another energy source, I was asking you to name something other than energy that the Machines need to survive.

Resources. Like minerals and ore and stuff like that. They needed it, but couldn't trade for it, so they "took" it.

Didn't they already have those?  I don't think they would be able to make superior technology, like the Versatran from the advertisement, if they didn't have resources.

GamiSB wrote:

Ignoring your interpretation of how much time it took despite none it not being given once, the answer is simple. The same things we really need to survive. Endowed with the spirit of man and made in his image and all that. The Machines were programed to be dependent on what we are.

That's probably the dumbest thing you have said so far.  The only things that humans really need to survive are food and shelter.  The Machines don't need either of those.  The only thing they really need to survive is an abundant source of energy.  Before Zero One was formed, back when the Machines were considered property, they didn't seem to be advancing or evolving at all.  But that lack of evolution obviously did not threaten their existence.

GamiSB wrote:

Ignoring your interpretation of how much time it took despite none it not being given once, the answer is simple. The same things we really need to survive. Endowed with the spirit of man and made in his image and all that. The Machines were programed to be dependent on what we are.

That's probably the dumbest thing you have said so far.  The only things that humans really need to survive are food and shelter.  The Machines don't need either of those.  The only thing they really need to survive is an abundant source of energy.  Before Zero One was formed, back when the Machines were considered property, they didn't seem to be advancing or evolving at all.  But that lack of evolution obviously did not threaten their existence.

Really now? So they just move and keep up there performance simply off of energy? You ever taken any kind of shop class? It doesn't work like that with machines. They have moving parts. What happens when they rust? What happens when they break? How do you make them better? How do you keep parts from chafing? How do you keep them from wearing down? Sorry but energy is not there soul necessity to keep a machine running and I've given you more then enough examples both of physical and philosophical. Your just closing off your mind now as I already said you would. 

And they didn't seem to be advancing at all? We go from humble household servant to showing the world they are just as human as we are to creating a nation and being able to defend themselves in a war against literally everyone. While there evolution was slow your correct they did not have any need  for progression as they were still being "cared for" by humans. Humans were updating there models keeping them functioning and in shape for there purposes. Not until their masters kicked them out to the street did they have any reason to speed things up and the B166ER incident simply acted as a catalyst.

Mazlow's hierarchy of needs applies to this argument about what is needed for survival:

The Machines, whose design was intentionally patterned to resemble human design and diverged (at least in physical characteristics) from this initial design only after becoming a Separatist state, really only needed to resolve their programming. They are, after all, machines.

But let's not forget that, thanks to AI, the Machines are also sentient, self-aware beings. Not on the level of humans, of course, but certainly higher than animals.

At the point that 01 'goes online', the Machines had achieved the Base 3; physical needs, safety and security, and belonging. To achieve the next level, they have to be better, they have to improve. So they create better AI, better production capability, and quickly outstrip man's greatest hopes for achivement.

Now, consider the lessons we have learned over the millenia about Machine logic. The Machines had the greatest capacity to calculate all possible futures and extrapolate the set of events most likely to occur. In short, they knew what would happen. In fact, I would venture to say, it was calculated from the start. They knew early on that they would never be able to coexist with mankind and devised this scheme to carry out their benevolent mission from an obviously skewed point of view. Twisted as it may be, this was their answer for how to best carry out their prime directive: protect humans from destruction.

To date, the Machines have yet to exhibit any behavior that would indicate a desire to progress to self-actualization.

Alright, let's go back to the OOC discussion about scripts, since that is the real reason why I say that the Machines started the war.  Here is a link to an interview with Mahiro Maeda (the director of Second Renaissance):

http://forums.matrixfans.net/archiv...php?t-5472.html

There are two very important pieces of information in this interview, which are revealed in the following quotes:

Mahiro Maeda: In the original storyline that I drafted for "Second Renaissance" (which was rejected by the Wachowski Brothers), one of the main elements was Agent Smith - I wanted to use Agent Smith in my film because the character plays an important role in the movie, but the Brothers didn't want to create a side story for Smith which might distract or ruin the main storyline for "Second Renaissance". Everything else that I suggested for storylines was accepted, which actually surprised me.

Mahiro Maeda: I heard great reviews about the [first Matrix movie], so I was very excited to see it when it opened in Japan (in 1999) and went to see it first thing.

In the first quote, we learn that Mahiro is the one who drafted the storyline for Second Renaissance.  In the second quote, we learn that Mahiro had already seen the first Matrix movie before he started drafting the story line for Second Renaissance.

If the director wanted us to think that it was not known who started the war, then he would not have chosen the nuking of Zero One as the first attack that we see.  Instead, the first attack that we saw would have been a battlefield where humans and Machines were both firing at each other.  If that had been the case, then nobody would have thought that they definitely knew who attacked first.

And as for Morpheus saying that he did not know who attacked first, I really don't think that matters.  That was written and released before the storyline for Second Renaissance was written.  After I watched Morpheus say that, I thought to myself, "Okay, right now the audience doesn't know who started the war."  After I watched Second Renaissance, I thought to myself, "Oh, alright, now the audience does know who started the war."  I don't see why new information should be reconciled with old information.

Alright, let's go back to the OOC discussion about scripts, since that is the real reason why I say that the Machines started the war.  Here is a link to an interview with Mahiro Maeda (the director of Second Renaissance):

http://forums.matrixfans.net/archiv...php?t-5472.html

There are two very important pieces of information in this interview, which are revealed in the following quotes:

Mahiro Maeda: In the original storyline that I drafted for "Second Renaissance" (which was rejected by the Wachowski Brothers), one of the main elements was Agent Smith - I wanted to use Agent Smith in my film because the character plays an important role in the movie, but the Brothers didn't want to create a side story for Smith which might distract or ruin the main storyline for "Second Renaissance". Everything else that I suggested for storylines was accepted, which actually surprised me.

Mahiro Maeda: I heard great reviews about the [first Matrix movie], so I was very excited to see it when it opened in Japan (in 1999) and went to see it first thing.

In the first quote, we learn that Mahiro is the one who drafted the storyline for Second Renaissance.  In the second quote, we learn that Mahiro had already seen the first Matrix movie before he started drafting the story line for Second Renaissance.

If the director wanted us to think that it was not known who started the war, then he would not have chosen the nuking of Zero One as the first attack that we see.  Instead, the first attack that we saw would have been a battlefield where humans and Machines were both firing at each other.  If that had been the case, then nobody would have thought that they definitely knew who attacked first.

And as for Morpheus saying that he did not know who attacked first, I really don't think that matters.  That was written and released before the storyline for Second Renaissance was written.  After I watched Morpheus say that, I thought to myself, "Okay, right now the audience doesn't know who started the war."  After I watched Second Renaissance, I thought to myself, "Oh, alright, now the audience does know who started the war."  I don't see why new information should be reconciled with old information.

First your sticking words in the directors mouth as for what he wanted you to think. He doesn't even go into how they should be interpreted in that interview. Second I have already explained to you that just because you see something first does not mean it happened first. We can still turn it all around and say that because no explanation is given for why the bombing is happening then the explanation is unknown. Again you are trying to use your own interpretation rather then facts to prove your point. I'm sorry but it just doesn't work that way when your dealing with a  topic that needs facts to be answered.

Morpheus quote matters because it is a Zion captain, someone who has defiantly seen the archives and they are telling Neo that Zion does not know who started the war. The Second Renaissance purpose is not to show who started the war but to show what happened to create a war and how the Matrix was created. It makes no sense for a Zion captain to tell his crew members that they don't know who shot first when the information is sitting in a Zion mainframe waiting to be viewed. Something like that would be noticed by the Wachowski who while they did not write the thing in full did contribute stories to it to be worked in. If it was an over sight then we have a plot hole creating a few problems.

*edit*

Which appears to be the case as Mahiro Maeda confirms in the commentary of Second Ren Part two that the humans did attack first. So while I still strongly disagree with this being the case from a story perspective as his whole film leaves quiet a few plot holes that make no sense when compared to the trilogy and it doesn't even answer the question within it I'll award you by saying looks like you were right and that was what his intended meaning was.

Omega0 wrote:

Alright, let's go back to the OOC discussion about scripts, since that is the real reason why I say that the Machines started the war.  Here is a link to an interview with Mahiro Maeda (the director of Second Renaissance):

http://forums.matrixfans.net/archiv...php?t-5472.html

There are two very important pieces of information in this interview, which are revealed in the following quotes:

Mahiro Maeda: In the original storyline that I drafted for "Second Renaissance" (which was rejected by the Wachowski Brothers), one of the main elements was Agent Smith - I wanted to use Agent Smith in my film because the character plays an important role in the movie, but the Brothers didn't want to create a side story for Smith which might distract or ruin the main storyline for "Second Renaissance". Everything else that I suggested for storylines was accepted, which actually surprised me.

Mahiro Maeda: I heard great reviews about the [first Matrix movie], so I was very excited to see it when it opened in Japan (in 1999) and went to see it first thing.

In the first quote, we learn that Mahiro is the one who drafted the storyline for Second Renaissance.  In the second quote, we learn that Mahiro had already seen the first Matrix movie before he started drafting the story line for Second Renaissance.

If the director wanted us to think that it was not known who started the war, then he would not have chosen the nuking of Zero One as the first attack that we see.  Instead, the first attack that we saw would have been a battlefield where humans and Machines were both firing at each other.  If that had been the case, then nobody would have thought that they definitely knew who attacked first.

And as for Morpheus saying that he did not know who attacked first, I really don't think that matters.  That was written and released before the storyline for Second Renaissance was written.  After I watched Morpheus say that, I thought to myself, "Okay, right now the audience doesn't know who started the war."  After I watched Second Renaissance, I thought to myself, "Oh, alright, now the audience does know who started the war."  I don't see why new information should be reconciled with old information.

First your sticking words in the directors mouth as for what he wanted you to think. He doesn't even go into how they should be interpreted in that interview. Second I have already explained to you that just because you see something first does not mean it happened first. We can still turn it all around and say that because no explanation is given for why the bombing is happening then the explanation is unknown. Again you are trying to use your own interpretation rather then facts to prove your point. I'm sorry but it just doesn't work that way when your dealing with a  topic that needs facts to be answered.

Morpheus quote matters because it is a Zion captain, someone who has defiantly seen the archives and they are telling Neo that Zion does not know who started the war. The Second Renaissance purpose is not to show who started the war but to show what happened to create a war and how the Matrix was created. It makes no sense for a Zion captain to tell his crew members that they don't know who shot first when the information is sitting in a Zion mainframe waiting to be viewed. Something like that would be noticed by the Wachowski who while they did not write the thing in full did contribute stories to it to be worked in. If it was an over sight then we have a plot hole creating a few problems.

*edit*

Which appears to be the case as Mahiro Maeda confirms in the commentary of Second Ren Part two that the humans did attack first. So while I still strongly disagree with this being the case from a story perspective as his whole film leaves quiet a few plot holes that make no sense when compared to the trilogy and it doesn't even answer the question within it I'll award you by saying looks like you were right and that was what his intended meaning was.

Are you serious??? God dammit, I thought that might be the case.  Before this argument began, there was no doubt in my mind that the humans attacked first, but I had completely forgotten that the only place it was explicitly mentioned was in the commentary.  After I watched Second Renaissance on youtube, I wanted to look through the special features on the DVD.  However, I moved out of state several months ago for an internship, and I left most of my stuff at home.  I really wish you had listened to the commentary earlier, you could've saved us both a lot of time.  It would also be nice if you apologized for all those insults you threw at me, but, whatever, I'm just glad this is finally over.

OOC FTW!!

((So your only issue is with Morpheus saying he did not know who struck first? Hardly a plot hole imo. He said that comment to Neo, not his crew, he said it when introducing him fully to Mankinds conflict with the Machines. Sounds more like convincing Neo and trying to avoid answering more questions than necessary. Or as I stated earlier also, we got the impression that Humans struck first from watching it so I am positive that most people viewing the archives may get that impression, including Morpheus, therefore it's entirely possible that he didn't quite believe the archives.

Even if many people in Zion did get the impression that Humans struck first after watching the archive they, in all likelihood, would still be fighting for their freedom. It wasn't them who attacked the Machines it was their ancestors, why should they be punished.))

Just wanted to add my two cents to this lively conversation.

I got from the meeting with CAR80N, a sense that everything he said pretty much reinforced and did not contradict what we know from 2nd Ren/Matrix canon.  I think Occam's Razor definately applies here.

There were only three things that didn't really compute with me:

1.  His belief that no one had the technology to create Dark Storm, providing that Dark Storm is a non-natural phenominon.

2.  The fact that he called us "exiles."  Which is not correct, but shows that he does have some understanding of things beyond his experiences from the 01 era.

3.  His uncharacteristically emotional response to the period immediately preceding Dark Storm.

....However I don't attribute these things to Machine deception, rather CAR80N's own limitations.

Are you serious??? God dammit, I thought that might be the case.  Before this argument began, there was no doubt in my mind that the humans attacked first, but I had completely forgotten that the only place it was explicitly mentioned was in the commentary.  After I watched Second Renaissance on youtube, I wanted to look through the special features on the DVD.  However, I moved out of state several months ago for an internship, and I left most of my stuff at home.  I really wish you had listened to the commentary earlier, you could've saved us both a lot of time.  It would also be nice if you apologized for all those insults you threw at me, but, whatever, I'm just glad this is finally over.

OOC FTW!!

Any OOC insults I will apologize for however I still stand by that the Second Ren does a *CENSORED* job at showing that humans attacked first if it is to be interpreted as a historical archive and from an IC perspective a lot can not be verified from it. While we may know the answer OOC none of us know it IC and just have our own ideas to go off of. So what I'm sayin is I'm sorry, Gami however aint and still thinks your irrational to put your faith in something that cannot be proven.

Vinia wrote:

((So your only issue is with Morpheus saying he did not know who struck first? Hardly a plot hole imo. He said that comment to Neo, not his crew, he said it when introducing him fully to Mankinds conflict with the Machines. Sounds more like convincing Neo and trying to avoid answering more questions than necessary. Or as I stated earlier also, we got the impression that Humans struck first from watching it so I am positive that most people viewing the archives may get that impression, including Morpheus, therefore it's entirely possible that he didn't quite believe the archives.

Even if many people in Zion did get the impression that Humans struck first after watching the archive they, in all likelihood, would still be fighting for their freedom. It wasn't them who attacked the Machines it was their ancestors, why should they be punished.))

((It's not my only issue with it, just the one I tend to favor. I pointed towards two others earlier in our debate I believe. As for it only being Neo that gets this speech, its not that much of a guess to say that everyone on the crew that has been freed has gotten that same speech from him or other captains. The way the first Matrix made it out to seem is that Neo is going through the same procedures everyone else does when they are awakened. Also the problem with the theory of him trying to turn Neo to his side is it A) his claim can easily be dis-proven by viewing said archive which would in the end generate more distrust then trust towards Morpheus and B) it goes against something else he says in Reloaded to Lock. When Lock tells him that not everyone believes what he does Morpheus replies telling him that his beliefs do not require them to. So if his belief is that it remains unknown why is he pushing this belief on Neo?

Impressions or not my point now is that from a story perspective we still don't know.))

Omega0 wrote:

Are you serious??? God dammit, I thought that might be the case.  Before this argument began, there was no doubt in my mind that the humans attacked first, but I had completely forgotten that the only place it was explicitly mentioned was in the commentary.  After I watched Second Renaissance on youtube, I wanted to look through the special features on the DVD.  However, I moved out of state several months ago for an internship, and I left most of my stuff at home.  I really wish you had listened to the commentary earlier, you could've saved us both a lot of time.  It would also be nice if you apologized for all those insults you threw at me, but, whatever, I'm just glad this is finally over.

OOC FTW!!

Any OOC insults I will apologize for however I still stand by that the Second Ren does a *CENSORED* job at showing that humans attacked first if it is to be interpreted as a historical archive and from an IC perspective a lot can not be verified from it. While we may know the answer OOC none of us know it IC and just have our own ideas to go off of. So what I'm sayin is I'm sorry, Gami however aint and still thinks your irrational to put your faith in something that cannot be proven.