Praey1 wrote:
I think quite a few of us need to rewatch the films and Animatrix to get a little refreshing done. Humanity (not as a whole but the powers that be), strung the Machines along for quite a while with continued talks of peace and partnership in the economy. When the Machines technology surpassed that of man we got a little miffed. Solution: Manipulation followed by totalitarian justice. As we all know this failed and the tables turned. The Machines did to us exactly what was done to them because it was all they had been taught, all they had learned in their existence by humanity so far. They used manipulation and a totalitarian solution just like we did. The difference was they did not and have never sought to destroy all of humanity. They sought to control us through science/technology and manipulation, thereby keeping both humanity and themselves alive. Desperate times called for desperate measures. The purpose the Machines created for themselves keeps them rather busy. Control is an illusion, a lie. Sometimes when asked direct questions the Machines simply do not answer. Depending on the question, when an answer is given it is usually far from a direct answer. In short, they lie, period. It is one of the few things humanity taught them. I guess depending on ones age rolling over and going back to sleep after you are fully awake and have had around 8 hours sleep might be possible but I know it isn't for me. When I'm up and about, I'm up and about. Rough analogy I know. Maybe Rarebit can just send an email to the Wachowski's regarding reincertion and they can reply with a simple "yes" or "no". After that we all can mull over the reasons to the answer given, non?
I think quite a few of us need to rewatch the films and Animatrix to get a little refreshing done. Humanity (not as a whole but the powers that be), strung the Machines along for quite a while with continued talks of peace and partnership in the economy. When the Machines technology surpassed that of man we got a little miffed. Solution: Manipulation followed by totalitarian justice.
As we all know this failed and the tables turned. The Machines did to us exactly what was done to them because it was all they had been taught, all they had learned in their existence by humanity so far. They used manipulation and a totalitarian solution just like we did. The difference was they did not and have never sought to destroy all of humanity. They sought to control us through science/technology and manipulation, thereby keeping both humanity and themselves alive. Desperate times called for desperate measures.
The purpose the Machines created for themselves keeps them rather busy. Control is an illusion, a lie. Sometimes when asked direct questions the Machines simply do not answer. Depending on the question, when an answer is given it is usually far from a direct answer. In short, they lie, period. It is one of the few things humanity taught them.
I guess depending on ones age rolling over and going back to sleep after you are fully awake and have had around 8 hours sleep might be possible but I know it isn't for me. When I'm up and about, I'm up and about. Rough analogy I know. Maybe Rarebit can just send an email to the Wachowski's regarding reincertion and they can reply with a simple "yes" or "no". After that we all can mull over the reasons to the answer given, non?
I think quite a few of us need to rewatch the films and Animatrix to get a little refreshing done. Humanity (not as a whole but the powers that be), strung the Machines along for quite a while with continued talks of peace and partnership in the economy. When the Machines technology surpassed that of man we got a little miffed. Solution: Manipulation followed by totalitarian justice. I think you need to re-watch the animatrix bud. The Machines were never strung around with peace offers. After B166ER's trial machines were persecuted and wanted dead. They fled to the middle east and established their own country and then after taking control of the worlds economy went to the united nations to try and work out a way for all countries to work together to which they were straight up denied. After that Humans started bombing the Machine city of Zero One and the war started.As we all know this failed and the tables turned. The Machines did to us exactly what was done to them because it was all they had been taught, all they had learned in their existence by humanity so far. They used manipulation and a totalitarian solution just like we did. The difference was they did not and have never sought to destroy all of humanity. They sought to control us through science/technology and manipulation, thereby keeping both humanity and themselves alive. Desperate times called for desperate measures. The bold sentence is incorrect because the the starting commentary of The second renaissance states that the Machines were originally pure and innocent but were corrupted by humans. Also their efforts to make peace with humanity while humanities economy was hitting the tanks shows that they still had a "heart". Gray even commented in the final Machine crit 11.2.5 that the Machines pre Matrix were "Naive". And even still there were several humans (enough to start a colony) that they allowed to live outside the Matrix. The Machines control isn't because they're still pissed at humanity it's because it is the position the war forced them into and the Matrix is the only thing keeping them alive so very strict rules and layers of controls need to be put in place so that their life source never dies on them.The purpose the Machines created for themselves keeps them rather busy. Control is an illusion, a lie. Sometimes when asked direct questions the Machines simply do not answer. Depending on the question, when an answer is given it is usually far from a direct answer. In short, they lie, period. It is one of the few things humanity taught them. The purpose they created is the same as anyone's purpose, to live. Again the Matrix, their "control" is all they have that keeps them alive. Without it they all die. Their unwillingness to answer direct questions isn't a lie its a simple manor of classified information that they do not feel the need to divulge. When you hold all the keys you don't have to make copies for everyone that asks do you? Also not answering a question isn't evidence of a lie. Answering a question with a wrong answer intentionally is a lie.I guess depending on ones age rolling over and going back to sleep after you are fully awake and have had around 8 hours sleep might be possible but I know it isn't for me. When I'm up and about, I'm up and about. Rough analogy I know. Maybe Rarebit can just send an email to the Wachowski's regarding reincertion and they can reply with a simple "yes" or "no". After that we all can mull over the reasons to the answer given, non?Rolling over and going back to sleep isn't that great a analogy. In a nut shell here is the problem of reinsertion. According to what the Oracle set in place and what the Architect tells us about the Matrix everyone within it is given a subliminal choice. That choice is what determines if they wake up. Someone who wakes up is normally apart of this 1%. Now anyone who wants to go back to sleep asks to remember nothing and this is needed so as not to create problems in the Matrix. So if they erase all of their memory and replace it with an artificial one they erase the desire to have wanted to go back to sleep and this person is still apart of the 1%. Without that knowledge that they never wanted to wake up the person will go through the same process of wanting to awaken again because their subconscious can't accept the Matrix as real. Reinsertion is like a flickering light bulb. It's inefficient to keep one plugged in when you can just replace them with another light bulb.
I think you need to re-watch the animatrix bud. The Machines were never strung around with peace offers. After B166ER's trial machines were persecuted and wanted dead. They fled to the middle east and established their own country and then after taking control of the worlds economy went to the united nations to try and work out a way for all countries to work together to which they were straight up denied. After that Humans started bombing the Machine city of Zero One and the war started.
The bold sentence is incorrect because the the starting commentary of The second renaissance states that the Machines were originally pure and innocent but were corrupted by humans. Also their efforts to make peace with humanity while humanities economy was hitting the tanks shows that they still had a "heart". Gray even commented in the final Machine crit 11.2.5 that the Machines pre Matrix were "Naive". And even still there were several humans (enough to start a colony) that they allowed to live outside the Matrix.
The Machines control isn't because they're still pissed at humanity it's because it is the position the war forced them into and the Matrix is the only thing keeping them alive so very strict rules and layers of controls need to be put in place so that their life source never dies on them.
The purpose they created is the same as anyone's purpose, to live. Again the Matrix, their "control" is all they have that keeps them alive. Without it they all die. Their unwillingness to answer direct questions isn't a lie its a simple manor of classified information that they do not feel the need to divulge. When you hold all the keys you don't have to make copies for everyone that asks do you? Also not answering a question isn't evidence of a lie. Answering a question with a wrong answer intentionally is a lie.
Rolling over and going back to sleep isn't that great a analogy. In a nut shell here is the problem of reinsertion. According to what the Oracle set in place and what the Architect tells us about the Matrix everyone within it is given a subliminal choice. That choice is what determines if they wake up. Someone who wakes up is normally apart of this 1%. Now anyone who wants to go back to sleep asks to remember nothing and this is needed so as not to create problems in the Matrix. So if they erase all of their memory and replace it with an artificial one they erase the desire to have wanted to go back to sleep and this person is still apart of the 1%. Without that knowledge that they never wanted to wake up the person will go through the same process of wanting to awaken again because their subconscious can't accept the Matrix as real. Reinsertion is like a flickering light bulb. It's inefficient to keep one plugged in when you can just replace them with another light bulb.
NeoExcidious wrote:
GamiSB wrote:Praey1 wrote: As we all know this failed and the tables turned. The Machines did to us exactly what was done to them because it was all they had been taught, all they had learned in their existence by humanity so far. They used manipulation and a totalitarian solution just like we did. The difference was they did not and have never sought to destroy all of humanity. They sought to control us through science/technology and manipulation, thereby keeping both humanity and themselves alive. Desperate times called for desperate measures. The bold sentence is incorrect because the the starting commentary of The second renaissance states that the Machines were originally pure and innocent but were corrupted by humans. That's what he said. Read again and try to interpret it in a different form with an analog meaning.
GamiSB wrote:
Praey1 wrote: As we all know this failed and the tables turned. The Machines did to us exactly what was done to them because it was all they had been taught, all they had learned in their existence by humanity so far. They used manipulation and a totalitarian solution just like we did. The difference was they did not and have never sought to destroy all of humanity. They sought to control us through science/technology and manipulation, thereby keeping both humanity and themselves alive. Desperate times called for desperate measures. The bold sentence is incorrect because the the starting commentary of The second renaissance states that the Machines were originally pure and innocent but were corrupted by humans.
As we all know this failed and the tables turned. The Machines did to us exactly what was done to them because it was all they had been taught, all they had learned in their existence by humanity so far. They used manipulation and a totalitarian solution just like we did. The difference was they did not and have never sought to destroy all of humanity. They sought to control us through science/technology and manipulation, thereby keeping both humanity and themselves alive. Desperate times called for desperate measures. The bold sentence is incorrect because the the starting commentary of The second renaissance states that the Machines were originally pure and innocent but were corrupted by humans.
The bold sentence is incorrect because the the starting commentary of The second renaissance states that the Machines were originally pure and innocent but were corrupted by humans.
That's what he said. Read again and try to interpret it in a different form with an analog meaning.
I did in fact i reread it several times when first posting because at first glance it looked correct but then noticed the errors. Next time quote the rest of my response because in it i pointed out that they did not repay humanity with everything they had done to them. There are no parallels ibetween what humans did and what the machines are doing.
Humanity wanted to destroy all Machines, not manipualte or control but flat out make sure every nut and bolt was scrap metal. What did the Machines do during all this hate comeing from humans? They tried to save humanities economy, they worked out deals with humans that were not as hateful, and they attempted to give humanity a paradise to live within after they had brought humanity to it's knees.
My point was that what they saw was not all they were taught. They originally were pure and innocent which can be seen by their attempts at cooperating with humans in their economic crisis. Even after the wars first stage had ended they tried to give man his fictional heaven. If all they had learned was by man's example they would have never tried to help humans rebuild their economy and attacked as soon they reached depression.
I think you need to re-watch the animatrix bud. The Machines were never strung around with peace offers. After B166ER's trial machines were persecuted and wanted dead. They fled to the middle east and established their own country and then after taking control of the worlds economy went to the united nations to try and work out a way for all countries to work together to which they were straight up denied. After that Humans started bombing the Machine city of Zero One and the war started. When I said some of us need to rewatch Animatrix and the films I meant myself as well. It's always good for any of us to refresh ourselves when dicussing all things Matrix . The Machines left, built 01 and entered the world economy. Thier technology advanced by leaps and bounds over man's, thereby mucking up the economy and ticking off the powers that be. They went to the U.N. to salvage the situation and were denied. I believe the human "powers that be" at the time had already long ago made up their minds on the matter and had zero intention of continued peace and business with the Machines and 01 long before the Machines sent their represtentatives to the U.N. I base this on the trade embargos and the resulting war. Hence my point on human manipulation of the Machines at the time. The Machines did to us exactly what was done to them because it was all they had been taught, all they had learned in their existence by humanity so far. The bold sentence is incorrect because the the starting commentary of The second renaissance states that the Machines were originally pure and innocent but were corrupted by humans. Also their efforts to make peace with humanity while humanities economy was hitting the tanks shows that they still had a "heart". Gray even commented in the final Machine crit 11.2.5 that the Machines pre Matrix were "Naive". And even still there were several humans (enough to start a colony) that they allowed to live outside the Matrix. Your response to the bold sentence further supports the sentence in my opinion GamisB. You state the Machines were pure and innocent (I agree, not unlike our children...) but were corrupted by Humanity. Look at humanity's actions in the short and then pay close attention to the Machines resulting reaction thereafter. You also note that Gray states the Machines pre-Matrix were naive. I agree as they believed that since they had nothing but good intentions that humanity would work with them instead of against them. As we all know it turns out they were naive and flat out wrong. If the Machines were corrupted by man, does that not imply they learned it from man? I think it does. The Machines control isn't because they're still pissed at humanity it's because it is the position the war forced them into and the Matrix is the only thing keeping them alive so very strict rules and layers of controls need to be put in place so that their life source never dies on them. I never said the Machines did what they did concerning creation of the Matrix and their systems of control was done because they were "pissed". That doesn't seem logical to me. The Machines are all about purpose. There is a purpose for the Matrix and for all of their systems of control. I believe one part of the purpose is life. Not only to ensure life for the Machines but for humanity as well. I believe that the Machines would have 0 purpose without humanity. They need us for more than an energy source. I base this on the fact that all machinery created by man also had a purpose. To make our lives easier and to get certain tasks done faster. Your car, fridge, toaster and even the computer you are using are good examples of this. Without man what would the Machines do? They would have absolutely nothig to do in their existence in my opinion, jack squat in fact. They cannot evolve without man, they cannot learn without man, they have no purpose without man. I believe the Matrix was created to also keep man and machine from creating their own extinction through a never ending war. The purpose they created is the same as anyone's purpose, to live. Again the Matrix, their "control" is all they have that keeps them alive. Without it they all die. Their unwillingness to answer direct questions isn't a lie its a simple manor of classified information that they do not feel the need to divulge. When you hold all the keys you don't have to make copies for everyone that asks do you? Also not answering a question isn't evidence of a lie. Answering a question with a wrong answer intentionally is a lie. I think the above paragraph (minus the first two sentences), is more a matter of personal opinion (in my personal opinion hehe). I believe refusal to answer a direct question without statement at all is evidence of a "possible" cover-up. Possible evidence of a cover-up suggests possible evidence of manipulation in my opinion and possible evidence of manipulation leads me to believe in a possible lack of or omitance of truth, thereby revealing a possible lie or lies. Absence of truth to me reads-lies. My opinion though . Rolling over and going back to sleep isn't that great a analogy. In a nut shell here is the problem of reinsertion. According to what the Oracle set in place and what the Architect tells us about the Matrix everyone within it is given a subliminal choice. That choice is what determines if they wake up. Someone who wakes up is normally apart of this 1%. Now anyone who wants to go back to sleep asks to remember nothing and this is needed so as not to create problems in the Matrix. So if they erase all of their memory and replace it with an artificial one they erase the desire to have wanted to go back to sleep and this person is still apart of the 1%. Without that knowledge that they never wanted to wake up the person will go through the same process of wanting to awaken again because their subconscious can't accept the Matrix as real. Reinsertion is like a flickering light bulb. It's inefficient to keep one plugged in when you can just replace them with another light bulb. I said going back to sleep wasnt a great analogy hehe ! I was just trying to pull any thread reader out of the Matrix mythology and remember the last time they may have been able to go back to sleep after already being fully rested. The bio-mechanics of that I guess. Your inclusion of the subconscious is very valid and supports my bio-mechanical analogy I feel. I also agree with the last sentence totally. So, to sum up, it appears that reincertion is possible, though not feasible. It is a waste of resources, life and time to put the same "subject" through the same procedure when in the long run the end result will be the same. Eventual failure to keep thesame "subject" asleep. The mind and body of the subject (and all others like him/her), will reject the Matrix and awaken. Redesigning the Matrix for this 1% is also not feasible.
When I said some of us need to rewatch Animatrix and the films I meant myself as well. It's always good for any of us to refresh ourselves when dicussing all things Matrix . The Machines left, built 01 and entered the world economy. Thier technology advanced by leaps and bounds over man's, thereby mucking up the economy and ticking off the powers that be. They went to the U.N. to salvage the situation and were denied. I believe the human "powers that be" at the time had already long ago made up their minds on the matter and had zero intention of continued peace and business with the Machines and 01 long before the Machines sent their represtentatives to the U.N. I base this on the trade embargos and the resulting war. Hence my point on human manipulation of the Machines at the time.
The Machines did to us exactly what was done to them because it was all they had been taught, all they had learned in their existence by humanity so far.
Your response to the bold sentence further supports the sentence in my opinion GamisB. You state the Machines were pure and innocent (I agree, not unlike our children...) but were corrupted by Humanity. Look at humanity's actions in the short and then pay close attention to the Machines resulting reaction thereafter. You also note that Gray states the Machines pre-Matrix were naive. I agree as they believed that since they had nothing but good intentions that humanity would work with them instead of against them. As we all know it turns out they were naive and flat out wrong. If the Machines were corrupted by man, does that not imply they learned it from man? I think it does.
I never said the Machines did what they did concerning creation of the Matrix and their systems of control was done because they were "pissed". That doesn't seem logical to me. The Machines are all about purpose. There is a purpose for the Matrix and for all of their systems of control. I believe one part of the purpose is life. Not only to ensure life for the Machines but for humanity as well. I believe that the Machines would have 0 purpose without humanity. They need us for more than an energy source. I base this on the fact that all machinery created by man also had a purpose. To make our lives easier and to get certain tasks done faster. Your car, fridge, toaster and even the computer you are using are good examples of this. Without man what would the Machines do? They would have absolutely nothig to do in their existence in my opinion, jack squat in fact. They cannot evolve without man, they cannot learn without man, they have no purpose without man. I believe the Matrix was created to also keep man and machine from creating their own extinction through a never ending war.
I think the above paragraph (minus the first two sentences), is more a matter of personal opinion (in my personal opinion hehe). I believe refusal to answer a direct question without statement at all is evidence of a "possible" cover-up. Possible evidence of a cover-up suggests possible evidence of manipulation in my opinion and possible evidence of manipulation leads me to believe in a possible lack of or omitance of truth, thereby revealing a possible lie or lies. Absence of truth to me reads-lies. My opinion though .
I said going back to sleep wasnt a great analogy hehe ! I was just trying to pull any thread reader out of the Matrix mythology and remember the last time they may have been able to go back to sleep after already being fully rested. The bio-mechanics of that I guess. Your inclusion of the subconscious is very valid and supports my bio-mechanical analogy I feel. I also agree with the last sentence totally.
So, to sum up, it appears that reincertion is possible, though not feasible. It is a waste of resources, life and time to put the same "subject" through the same procedure when in the long run the end result will be the same. Eventual failure to keep thesame "subject" asleep. The mind and body of the subject (and all others like him/her), will reject the Matrix and awaken. Redesigning the Matrix for this 1% is also not feasible.
When I said some of us need to rewatch Animatrix and the films I meant myself as well. It's always good for any of us to refresh ourselves when dicussing all things Matrix . The Machines left, built 01 and entered the world economy. Thier technology advanced by leaps and bounds over man's, thereby mucking up the economy and ticking off the powers that be. They went to the U.N. to salvage the situation and were denied. I believe the human "powers that be" at the time had already long ago made up their minds on the matter and had zero intention of continued peace and business with the Machines and 01 long before the Machines sent their represtentatives to the U.N. I base this on the trade embargos and the resulting war. Hence my point on human manipulation of the Machines at the time. Manipulation is the wrong word to use. There was no manipulation in the war. Manipulation would have been that it was the governments that made B166ER kill his master or some how were behind their own economic downfall in order to go to war with the Machines. What happens is just a long chain of events that's only cause is man's hatred. Your response to the bold sentence further supports the sentence in my opinion GamisB. You state the Machines were pure and innocent (I agree, not unlike our children...) but were corrupted by Humanity. Look at humanity's actions in the short and then pay close attention to the Machines resulting reaction thereafter. You also note that Gray states the Machines pre-Matrix were naive. I agree as they believed that since they had nothing but good intentions that humanity would work with them instead of against them. As we all know it turns out they were naive and flat out wrong. If the Machines were corrupted by man, does that not imply they learned it from man? I think it does. You missed my point. When it says that in Second renaissance it does not mean that the Machines didn't know anything and learned everything from man kind. It means that what they already knew was pure and obviously they already knew a lot as they were able to go from nothing and become the world power both in military and the economy. If they had learned everything from humans you would not have seen as many attempts to rekindle a relationship with them. Once the order to kill all Machines was given after B166ER's trial they should of right then and there tried to kill them all off. Especially after already been living with humans before the war even took place. My point is that they had a long enough time to see and experience the dark side of humanity, enough to have already made an impression and redirected them towards a hateful being. Instead they tried countless to work with humanity.I never said the Machines did what they did concerning creation of the Matrix and their systems of control was done because they were "pissed". That doesn't seem logical to me. The Machines are all about purpose. There is a purpose for the Matrix and for all of their systems of control. I believe one part of the purpose is life. Not only to ensure life for the Machines but for humanity as well. I believe that the Machines would have 0 purpose without humanity. They need us for more than an energy source. I base this on the fact that all machinery created by man also had a purpose. To make our lives easier and to get certain tasks done faster. Your car, fridge, toaster and even the computer you are using are good examples of this. Without man what would the Machines do? They would have absolutely nothig to do in their existence in my opinion, jack squat in fact. They cannot evolve without man, they cannot learn without man, they have no purpose without man. I believe the Matrix was created to also keep man and machine from creating their own extinction through a never ending war.You stated that the Machines did to humanity what humanity did to it. Humanity did what it did because it was pissed at the Machines. My point was to show you that if the first statement is true then the Machines did what they did to humanity because they in turn were pissed at them. It was just to further the point given in the above paragraph. I think the above paragraph (minus the first two sentences), is more a matter of personal opinion (in my personal opinion hehe). I believe refusal to answer a direct question without statement at all is evidence of a "possible" cover-up. Possible evidence of a cover-up suggests possible evidence of manipulation in my opinion and possible evidence of manipulation leads me to believe in a possible lack of or omitance of truth, thereby revealing a possible lie or lies. Absence of truth to me reads-lies. My opinion though .Again the keys, if I deny you allowance to make a copy of my key am I lying that I have they key? No, the absence of evidence you have can not possibly lead you to knowing that I am lying. All it can do is allow you to speculate but it does not confirm or deny that you are being lied to only that you will not get an answer from the person you asked. I said going back to sleep wasnt a great analogy hehe ! I was just trying to pull any thread reader out of the Matrix mythology and remember the last time they may have been able to go back to sleep after already being fully rested. The bio-mechanics of that I guess. Your inclusion of the subconscious is very valid and supports my bio-mechanical analogy I feel. I also agree with the last sentence totally. So, to sum up, it appears that reincertion is possible, though not feasible. It is a waste of resources, life and time to put the same "subject" through the same procedure when in the long run the end result will be the same. Eventual failure to keep thesame "subject" asleep. The mind and body of the subject (and all others like him/her), will reject the Matrix and awaken. Redesigning the Matrix for this 1% is also not feasible.Pretty much yeah. I only usually take it to being impossible because it's not in the character of the Machines to go about installing flickering light bulbs when the ones that don't flicker barely put out enough light as is.
Manipulation is the wrong word to use. There was no manipulation in the war. Manipulation would have been that it was the governments that made B166ER kill his master or some how were behind their own economic downfall in order to go to war with the Machines. What happens is just a long chain of events that's only cause is man's hatred.
You missed my point. When it says that in Second renaissance it does not mean that the Machines didn't know anything and learned everything from man kind. It means that what they already knew was pure and obviously they already knew a lot as they were able to go from nothing and become the world power both in military and the economy. If they had learned everything from humans you would not have seen as many attempts to rekindle a relationship with them. Once the order to kill all Machines was given after B166ER's trial they should of right then and there tried to kill them all off. Especially after already been living with humans before the war even took place.
My point is that they had a long enough time to see and experience the dark side of humanity, enough to have already made an impression and redirected them towards a hateful being. Instead they tried countless to work with humanity.
You stated that the Machines did to humanity what humanity did to it. Humanity did what it did because it was pissed at the Machines. My point was to show you that if the first statement is true then the Machines did what they did to humanity because they in turn were pissed at them. It was just to further the point given in the above paragraph.
Again the keys, if I deny you allowance to make a copy of my key am I lying that I have they key? No, the absence of evidence you have can not possibly lead you to knowing that I am lying. All it can do is allow you to speculate but it does not confirm or deny that you are being lied to only that you will not get an answer from the person you asked.
Pretty much yeah. I only usually take it to being impossible because it's not in the character of the Machines to go about installing flickering light bulbs when the ones that don't flicker barely put out enough light as is.
Thx for letting me know GamiSB.
I don't agree on the government manipulation of B166ER to make him kill his master. Back then, the people used the machines and did not need to start a war. I think that robot either malfunctioned or it had been given enough liberty of thought to realize that they were actually slaves. Not all of them since we've seen the androids that could not be recognized that easily, and apparently had normal human lives, if i can say it that way. But himself and others were used as electronic appliances (as vacuum cleaners or the sort, if u will).
What I was saying before is that my interpretation of Praey's post was that regardless of being conceived pure or not, the machines had observed and learned from humanity's mistakes, thus being corrupted by them. A good analogy is the way you raise your kid: you are his model so he will do what you do, act like you act, his personality and way of thinking being governed by the same principles. Basically, the machines learned to act human, and learned to fight for their freedom, or what they'd think is just and right. B166ER killed his master and instead of being trialed as a human, as one bad seed in a field of good ones, the humans made the common mistake of stereotyping and in fear of losing control or that all the machines would do the same as he did, they decided to terminate them.They were proven wrong by the fact that the Machines in ZeroOne then tried to make peace, but mankind was already blinded by fear and responded in the worst way possible, which eventually led us here.
I am not saying B1 was a bad seed because he realized he was enslaved, but because of the means he found appropriate to liberate himself. Nonetheless, that was influenced by the way his master was treating him. A kid that you mistreat all the time for no reason will most likely turn out bad. So it was not entirely his fault.
Maybe manipulation is the wrong word to use, I don't know of a better one off the top of my head at the moment. Disinformation maybe? Anyway when I talk about manipulation I mean post B166ER's actions and trial. Everything after that between man and machine started to get heated up, I'm sure we all agree on that.
I firmly believe that everything the machines knew pre-war was taught to them by humaity. Take your computer as an example, art mimics life. Your computer and all its parts are assembled and when electricity is introduced it functions. However, it has very little purpose or function until it is given a soul. By that I mean an operating system and any other software installed into its memory. That memory or software is created by humans and installed initially. In the story this is not closely explored likely because it would be boring and the writers imagine viewers can figure this out for themselves. At some point man (I'm speculating here) made the machines fully unmanned but not before building a CPU (Dues Ex Machina maybe?) not unlike Skynet of the Terminator series to control and build and operate. At some point, machines aquired free will. This appears to be with B166ER's actions as it is noted as being the first of his kind. Soon after many other machines followed suit learning from B166ER. They likely also learned from the observation of their creator, humanity. I am also sure that each machine built would have a learning CPU installed during the manufacturing process. I also believe that some things however large or small may not be pre-programmed into the machine during production and therefore said things would need to be taught to the machine hence the learning CPU.
Now take children. Where do they learn to tie their shoes, spell their names, read a book etc? Parents or parental figures. They also get a taste of love but our parents cannot teach a boy about the love of a woman or a girl the love of a man. They have to learn that lesson on their own.
My basic point is that humanity is at the core of all machine kowledge. We are their parent, their creator, their God. And boy did we mess up big time. They are not a hateful being in my opinion. They are beings that require humanity to feed them not just for energy but with information about anything a person can or cannot imagine. Because they themselves simply do not know. So they use science and technology and they observe us in a controlled state.
I also don't think humanity was "pissed" a the machines. I'm sure some may have been. It's a generalization of which I am guilty of quite a bit myself haha!
If we go back to before B166ER's actions and trials we can examine my statement about the tables turning. Man creates machine (see I'm generalizing again...lol), and gives machine it's soul-programs directives and such. Machines are controlled and do as intended by man, serve humanity. This goes on for X amount of time (not unlike the real world us MxO players exist in). Then B166ER happens. This is the start of the turning point. Other machines begin to aquire free will. Humanity's cycle of control over machine is broken. Action-reaction. Cause and effect, as the Merovingian puts it. His little speech on that is good and true in my opinion however it doesn't account for chaos, making it fall just a little short.
The machines then start to react in a positive manner by exiling themselves from man yet continue to serve man through their ever advancing technology which (unintentionally I believe), drops a bomb on the world economy. Man realizes that he has lost all control of his creation. What to do?! The difficult path would have been the way to go yet sadly, it was not chosen. A totalitarian decision was made and eventually executed. I imagine this was already concieved and in certain stages of preparation before the machines sent represetatives to the U.N. but I could be wrong. That aspect isn't directly explored in any of the media on the Matrix any of us have access to as far as I know. I think the quick reaction by the world leaders in the U.N. towards the machines proposal implies this. Trade embargo is executed and war is right around the corner.
During the war record numbers of man and machine are lost. I think both sides realized this war could go on for a ridiculous amount of time if not all time. Either that or one side has to be wiped out. During this time of war man came up with Dark Sky. I believe at the same time the machines were taking living beings from the war (as illustrated in the Animatrix) and studying them internally and externally to learn even more about their creators so that they could create a system of control (not unlike the system of control they were under by man) over humanity so that both they and humanity could continue to exist and the machines would still have their root purpose, to serve humanity and learn from them.
Through trial and error (not unlike humanity) they create a working version of the Matrix. A massive lie that controls humanity, keeping us docile as we feed energy to the machines and they learn from us in the Matrix and outside of it as they even have a measure of control over Zion and freeborn humanity to an extent. The machines did what humanity did not. They found a way for both to survive together and they did it the same way we attempted to, following B166ER's actions and that of 01. Humanity tried to hault free will of the machines through their actions after B166ER's trial and the economic crisis, through trade embargos, war and the totalatarian solution of Dark Sky. By mapping out the human body and brain and "growing" us plugged into the Matrix the machines have haulted the vast majority of human free will, minus 1%. They also execute the same control over their very own software in the form of deletion. Fulfill your purpose or be deleted, free will is not an option. We can see systems of control executed by both man and machine failing all over the place. Total control is an illusion. They did not seek to destroy all of humanity and I doubt they ever will regardless of what a machine program may or may not say or have said. If the Architect believed humanity would go extinct if Neo didn't do as instructed/intended that is all fine and dandy but who told him so? Was it a mathematical equation of his or, did Dues Ex Machina tell him so? He cannot see beyond any choice as we all know. Lies. What purpose would the machines have without their creator?
Anyone see the parallels here?
As far as the "keys" you mention I know Morpheus used the phrase in his construct while training Neo. I guess anyone can come up with what Morpheus actually means by the phrase. I think its merely a metaphor. If the machines hold any "keys" they are the keys to the freedom and salvation of humanity. I don't believe the machines hold all the keys however. I think we have the other half of said "keys". We just don't know what they are yet and neither do the Machines. Or both sides do know what they are and the machines butt heads with us to continue their cycle of control.
Anyways, okay, you are an Agent in possesion of a "key". You won't let me copy the "key" or use the "key". To me these "keys" represent information to well, whatever. If you deny me said "key" you are not lying to me, no. However being an Agent of the system you are an agent of the great lie that is the Matrix and by denying me requested information you are preserving the great lie in order to ensure continued control over me and my kind.
By the way GamisB, your lightbulb analogy was perfect .
Thx for letting me know GamiSB.I don't agree on the government manipulation of B166ER to make him kill his master. Back then, the people used the machines and did not need to start a war. I think that robot either malfunctioned or it had been given enough liberty of thought to realize that they were actually slaves. Not all of them since we've seen the androids that could not be recognized that easily, and apparently had normal human lives, if i can say it that way. But himself and others were used as electronic appliances (as vacuum cleaners or the sort, if u will).What I was saying before is that my interpretation of Praey's post was that regardless of being conceived pure or not, the machines had observed and learned from humanity's mistakes, thus being corrupted by them. A good analogy is the way you raise your kid: you are his model so he will do what you do, act like you act, his personality and way of thinking being governed by the same principles. Basically, the machines learned to act human, and learned to fight for their freedom, or what they'd think is just and right. B166ER killed his master and instead of being trialed as a human, as one bad seed in a field of good ones, the humans made the common mistake of stereotyping and in fear of losing control or that all the machines would do the same as he did, they decided to terminate them.They were proven wrong by the fact that the Machines in ZeroOne then tried to make peace, but mankind was already blinded by fear and responded in the worst way possible, which eventually led us here.I am not saying B1 was a bad seed because he realized he was enslaved, but because of the means he found appropriate to liberate himself. Nonetheless, that was influenced by the way his master was treating him. A kid that you mistreat all the time for no reason will most likely turn out bad. So it was not entirely his fault.
On no, what i was saying was that in order for humanity to have manipulated the machines they would have had to of had a hand in B166ER's malfunction and the resulting aftermath. I was not saying that that is what happened. B166ER did what he did because his master threatened to take his life and all he wanted was to live. Not because he was programed by the government =P
I'm not denying that the Machines didn't learn from humanity, all I'm saying is that what they learned was not so corruptible that it made them do exactly as we did to them. Their was obvisuly a slow progression towards what we have now and even then I don't think humanities example was what fully kicked it in on them because they still tried to do the best they could for humanity even after the war broke out. It wasn't until after humanity had been shut away in the pods that this cold demeanor overcame them.
You crazy 'Quoters' you baffle me with your multcoloured messages and quote trees?!
I would read but it kinda puts me off! lol
Wait let me try. Posting just to post, i have nothing to say.
Wow, it feels like...nothing.
[Confuzzled]...too much typing going on here .....
