Update 44 Hotfix Discussion Thread

**Mave**

Alright folks. So far....

Find Weakness is still broken. You nerfed an ability that won't even activate right.

Good job on fixing Crippling Throw though. As it turns out, Paralyzing Throw is now suffering the same old effects of Crippling Throw.

Keep tuned in for updates on how this patch is doing.

MrMagno

Spies have only knife attacks for free fire which miss often enough. Then we play nearly a month before crippling throw is fixed only to find that paralyzing throw is now broken. Then we have these sneak attacks that fail because some will load canny senses + watcher shades for 100% sneak attack detection but yet spys do not even have a any buffs or bonuses for sneak attack accurracy period. If your opponent has full health and you IL them with a sneak attack (succeed or fail) then you are dead before your (failed) escape tactic can re-load. Riffle but smash works more times than slideroll, but I don't see that tree getting nerfed with every patch.

Flash and smoke bomb is a joke, so is blinding throw because technically you should be able to put on a disguise or sneak when enemy is blinded. Sever artery takes too long to cast to miss as often as it does. Inproved sneak attack grant gives a 25% powerlessness and pacify duraration bonus, but mind you that no ability causes those states.

Message Edited by MrMagno on 06.16.2006 06:50 AM
Message edited by MrMagno on 06/16/2006 05:50:04.

Quickin

Its always a good idea to call devs ignorant.............MA/Hacker/Gun moves also consume IS whether they land or not and yes some of those special abilities have a high IS cost. I frequently use MKT and I find these changes to be appropriate. I can no longer totally dominate an opponent at will. These changes have forced me to actually redefine my load and think more along the lines of tactics rather then a few simple moves to render my opponent totally unable to counterattack me. Also I am glad I can no longer plainly sideroll out of interlock every time after punting someone. Punt does enough damage on its own if used correctly even after the fix. MKT is still a dominating tree when used correctly. Frankly the only reason any of you are complaining is simply because your easy load isn't so easy any more. Actually learn your MKT trees instead of spamming knives and punting. There are so many different tactics with the MKT tree other then knife > sneak >break shield >Punt >Sideroll >Run (then hyper-jump if you're feeling a bit scared) Rinse and repeat. If your knives are not hitting like you want them to it could be due to few different things; improper load, improper clothing, unfamiliar with the load you are using, Your opponents load, your opponents clothing and lastly i could be just your mindset thinking "if I throw it, it should land". Players using any given tree do not hit their opponents with every punch/kick/hack or what have you whether it be free fire or during IL so why should MKTs be any different? Honestly if you are using MKT to totally kill players on your own then you have no understanding of how the tree is meant to be used. MKT is meant to assist in killing the opponent and it does just that and very effectively I might add. If you choose to interlock an opponent then that is a risk and you need to think of the concequences. Again its all about understanding what you are doing and it seems there are a few who use this tree improperly.

Message Edited by QUICKlN on 06.17.2006 12:43 AM

Message Edited by QUICKlN on 06.17.2006 12:58 AM
Message edited by Quickin on 06/16/2006 23:59:00.

**Tytanya_MxO**

The ignorance is from the stream of players demanding nerfs on a tree they have never used themsleves.....the let down from the devs is that in tackling the problem that hit the tree with the equivalent of a massive boadside making the spy less sucessful in their attacks, do less damage with those attacks and be easier to kill.... and yet they left the very obviously needed nerf of neurodart out... I dont mind balance I dont mind bugfixing but if a tree has been sustained on the back of a few bugged abilities the wise approach is to fix those and observe the impact before moving further.

Quickin

Nuerodart if used as an offensive move (not its intended purpose) may seem a bit overwhelming however on the defensive side neurodart offers the needed downgrades for any MKT to make an escape without having to use Hyper-Jump. Nuerodart is a defensive ability but some reason 90% of MKT users use this totally incorrectly. Again if you are using the MKT tree to kill an opponent entirely on your own then you are not using the MKT "art" properly. That is the biggest problem here, we have MKTs constantly complaining about being weak or abilities not being powerful enough (doing a lot of damage) what many do not understand is the simple fact MKT was never meant to be powerful in the way of damage output. Its players wanting to dominate with an assist tree as though they were using MA or Gunman that lead to these kinds of complaints. I for one am finally happy with MKT because it now forces me to treat this "art" as it was intended. Okay maybe a few changes still need to be applied but for the most part MKT is better then it has ever been. The changes to sideroll are absolutely brillant and exactly what was needed. Punt, suplex, freedom of Joints are all "finishing moves" example: You notice on of your faction members are interlocked with an opponent so you begin to assist him/her using knives and free fire attacks. However no matter what you do your faction member has gone down but has left his opponent with little health. At this point you want to finish off this opponent and move to the next. Easiest way to accomplish this is jam his shield and punt/suplex or what have you. You never want to sneak up to an opponent and use punt on someone who has full health thats not the intended use. As far as a few bugged abilities, not really bugged to the point where I'll ever complain about it. I have other options I'll just move onto something that works. In my opinion they have made the appropriate fixes at this time. They have made the right fixes and I am enjoying MKT more then I ever have. MKT is so much closer to its intended use then it has ever been.

**Lazaros**

You are wrong in so many ways. This game, this fighting system forces you to do a lot on your own. Pick any other MMO out there where you cant solo at all. Hell even the priest in wow can handle opponents 1 v 1 when used correctly. The problem here is people sem to the that IL is the only way to be a force in this game. All trees should stand a chance one on one, well execpt if your trying to fight as an ability coder. Youll be sick if the tree of your choice was nerfed to the point of being useless. The fact is in a system where they took out Multi fighting, a spy HAS to be able to handle themselves one on one or escape which the newest patch made both of those extremely hard to do. Whats the point of a special escape even with the timer that im ok with if it no longer

almost guaruntees my escape.

Quickin

Thanks for proving my point SMILEY

**Tytanya_MxO**

If I accepted that Spy was a support class I would agree however a spy is the very antithesis of a support class (in a cold war style situation such as we have here), it is by definition a character that uses stealth and subtefuge to get the better of the enemy, archetype spies know to all would be James Bond, Jason Bourne, Marta Hari, Aeon Flux or as the closest approximation to one seen in the Matrix Trilogy Cypher. These characters operate alone and their skills/tools/abilities are appropriate to that purpose. It is the other branch of operative where the label of supprt class could be ascribed as it is almost impossible to identify any soldier in fiction in isolation from his unit (Rambo being the example I am almost ashamed to offer).

However it is my belief that the operative tree as a whole is defined to be solo in nature and the only reason any argument arrives to suggest otherwise is that these trees are not working as intended but yes can work as a support class.......in fact any broken tree or ability can work as a support class so the argument is kinda self defeating.

As to the Neurodart and side roll escape these abilites have been taken in cross LO's by virtually every class of pvp'er....they are indeed powerful abilities in their own right and when buffing a class that does not otherwise need them (which has other compensating aspects) serious imbalnces occur....it is the positioning of these abilities in the spy tree that causes the problem not in fact what they do.

Quickin

At this point I can only suggest you re-read the Cr2 guide and/or ask Rarebit to explain the MKT to you. I'm not sure why you decided to reference fictional characters as I don't feel this is a "one man saves the world" type of game. If that were true then we would all be "The One". Lastly, "any broken tree or ability can work as a support class"; I'm not sure how to offer an opinion on this remark because that statement is simply not true. In fact I'd be hardpressed to see anyone use MA/Guns/Hacker with only a partial tree and effectively support anything or anyone. Just didn't make much sense to me.

**Tytanya_MxO**

QUICKlN wrote:

At this point I can only suggest you re-read the Cr2 guide and/or ask Rarebit to explain the MKT to you. I'm not sure why you decided to reference fictional characters as I don't feel this is a "one man saves the world" type of game. If that were true then we would all be "The One". Lastly, "any broken tree or ability can work as a support class"; I'm not sure how to offer an opinion on this remark because that statement is simply not true. In fact I'd be hardpressed to see anyone use MA/Guns/Hacker with only a partial tree and effectively support anything or anyone. Just didn't make much sense to me.

Hmm the topic is being derailed - apologies - but my reference was a general one to spy (to which I offered archtypal examples which I hoped would be universally recognised to illustrate why a spy cannot be regarded purely as a support class)... personally I prefer the Assassin label and that gets the shortest stick of all. My reference to a broken tree is one performing less than 100% in relation to other comparable trees.... assassin and mkt imo should be comparable with MA and gunman (in 1 on1...the spy suffering more if outnumbered) and as of this moment it has been made inferior to both, all other aspects being equal, because the typical IS needed to kill in the spys case exceeds what is available.

**Tzah**

Well I said I was waiting for the complaints to come from the spies etc and darn wasnt I right,, although personally for me I totally agree with Quickin,, he hit the nail on the head and the following post simply proved his point...

Only want to pick up on a few things reading through the topic:

Some one said that hopefully this fix will stop the hackers requesting fixes,, well I`m sorry but not a chance m8,, thats only a few abilities they have fixed ,, which still need tweaking and theres the rest of the hacker trees also to do. e.g accuracy, dot damage, cast times, reuse timers etc. So thats a big fat NO to hearing the last from hackers.

Next thing, some one said they should be able to punt, roll out and away and that the roll out should basically work everytime and have no re-use timer,, I can only say one thing to that,, you cant win them all as much as you would obviously like to.

Now onto the remark about spy being labelled a support class,, how do you think us hackers feel being labelled as support huh? patchers should be support class coz thats what they are, hackers should be right up there with the operatives, a spy is basically a coward that hits and runs, who can pick locks and disable security stuff etc,, you are not james (mr invincible) bond. I dont even know why your relating to fictional characters as they have absoloutly no bearing on this mmo.

the one last thing was a comment shouting at the people who dont use the trees requesting nerfs. I`m a pure hacker altho I have used all the trees, welcome to our world, I hope the nerf bat continues to fall on the operative classes for the next 3 maybe 4 months, as it has done so heavily with us.

**timeframe01**

Accuracy bonuses are now more balanced between the different special moves designed to get a player out of Interlock.

Seems as if that's done a little more than it suggests even outside InterLock. I guess that's why a lvl 50 like me can miss a reverse bulldog on a lvl 4 NPC.

Why use SideRoll Escape when you could use Consted Withdraw now?

Message Edited by timeframe01 on 06.19.2006 08:09 PM
Message edited by timeframe01 on 06/19/2006 19:09:58.

zeroone506

Yea, just wanted to say big thanks from me and sugaree for fixing the mission bugs. I'm glad I could do a positive contribution to the game development, and am going to continue reporting. Thanks again.

GuS

Thx for the bug fixes ! just like so many said be4 me .. thats what us players like to see SMILEY