[9.2.2] We would like the violence to end - Vector - 1/18/08

Chamber

Procurator wrote:

Tytanya_MxO wrote:
every murder and every violation of that wayward clan bloodies the hands of every Mech operative as well
No it doesn't.

Think of it, as bragging rights... hehe

Croesis

Tytanya_MxO wrote:

Each time they escalate their attempts to retain control an increasingly wild and powerful element arrives to upset the apple cart, its just evolutions way of progressing and eventually it will overwhelm, inevitably annihilating the mechs along the way.

I'm sure similar remarks were made about Humans when they created AI, it very nearly came true, but we're still here.

Considering that the Machines formed the Cypherites without the knowledge of Machinists and that they now operate independently of the Machines, our hands remain free of the blood they've spilt.

**Tytanya_MxO**

Vinia wrote:

Tytanya_MxO wrote:
Each time they escalate their attempts to retain control an increasingly wild and powerful element arrives to upset the apple cart, its just evolutions way of progressing and eventually it will overwhelm, inevitably annihilating the mechs along the way.
I'm sure similar remarks were made about Humans when they created AI, it very nearly came true, but we're still here.

Considering that the Machines formed the Cypherites without the knowledge of Machinists and that they now operate independently of the Machines, our hands remain free of the blood they've spilt.

Evolution has all the time in the world, the only question is who has the wit, wisdom or imagination to dare to evolve and who is simply destined for extinction.

"Just doing as I was told" has always been such a very 'convincing' argument to excuse murder. But what did you learn by their deception of yourselves and of the cyphertites, all that time supporting those oh so noble aims when your superiors were actually doing the exact opposite, what has changed that you feel your distance from the Cypherites is any more convicing today as it was when they previously 'operated without your knowledge'.

You choose who you work for and when you discover their true nature you choose to continue with them or not, your choice is what smears that blood on your hands. Niaevety is not an effective detergent.

**Garu**

That's interesting, Tytanya. Especially considering that you work for a self-serving, power hungry exile who seeks nothing but to dominate the Matrix and profit from the eternal strife between Zion and Machine.

SMILEY

**Procurator**

I'm sorry, but the old 'you choose to work for them' argument doesn't work when it's presented without all the facts. Yes, the Machines formed the Cypherites (though they never advocated their murderous ways, but that's another argument that's been done to death), yes, we chose to stay with them after the fact.

But what was the alternative? The humans who call themselves Machinists because they want to see greater co-operation and eventually peace between Man and Machine cannot be swayed from their cause by the Machines' mistakes. We can't go to Zion - they don't have enough resources and a lot of them are idiots. We can't go Merv because... well, they aren't even relevant. And we can't go Cypherite or EPN 'cos the very concept is laughable.

If we choose to remain Machinists we do so for very good reasons. And our choice does not mean we endorse the Cypherites nor the Machines' intentions when creating them. Although, as it's becoming apparent to me, some of us do advocate them. I don't like those Machinists.

But, again, this has all been done to death many times before, so I'm not even sure why I'm bothering with this.

Croesis · 01/25/2008 08:07:24

The Cypherites were formed to prevent Zion from waking more then the allocated 1%, a figure agreed in the treaty. That was their function, it was their leadership that determined the actions taken to achieve said function. The Machines used Cryptos to lead the group, it's Veil who gained leadership status who nurtured the violent side. Perhaps the Machines could have disbanded them when they started to become more violent but by that time EPN had formed and the Machines knew that the Cyphs were an effective group against them.

I did not agree with the Machines decision when I found out, I see why the decision was made but did not agree with how it was to be carried out and I still condemn their past and present actions even now during the war.

Judging the Machines 'nature' on what you have seen rather than what actually transpired during their decision making process is very pretentious.

Pyraci

We all have our reasons for the sides that we take, but all-in-all, I think Tytanya has a point. I'll not question why people align with the Machine, but there are things the Machine do that are worth questioning, just like every other side. I would also say that when the Machine and it's children need info on Zion that it can't get on it's own, or when things need to get done that the Machine can't do, the Merovingian and his traffickers suddenly become very relevant.

**Procurator**

Pyraci wrote:

but there are things the Machine do that are worth questioning, just like every other side.

That's true. As long as no one's suggesting that Machinists don't question the Machines' actions and just follow along like obedient little puppies, I'll agree with you. Unfortunately, that seems to be what Tytanya's saying, and it's getting very tiresome. Not to mention ignorant.

**Tytanya_MxO**

((ok in an attack of stupidity I made this reply on the epn event thread and got a reply .... it belongs here really for what its worth))

Well as you know I aim to displease.

Diversity remains the Merovingian trump card but also their cross to bear, no one appreciates that individuals in each org can differ in their approach and their ability. Indeed Exiles are routinely persecuted by machines exactly because they are different and individual, this Intruder arrived to a similar welcome but now miraculously (after abject failure) the machines want to play nice and chat. Historically what have we come to understand by the Machines approach to forming a mutual alliance out of need?

I have no delusions about myself or the organisation I work for, I claim no altruistic motivation for either - but is anyone seriously convinced that the best way to monitor that 1% figure in the truce was to invent a covert terrorist army? What secret organisation have they now waiting in the wings ready to do the exact opposite of what they would have us believe, or is that still what the cypherites are and why, as is conceded so many machinists appear to actively support them?

**Omega0**

Vinia wrote:

The Cypherites were formed to prevent Zion from waking more then the allocated 1%, a figure agreed in the treaty.

Can you prove this? Have you even read the treaty? I haven't. But I do remember the Oracle asking the Architect "What about the others? ... The ones that want out." I do NOT remember her saying "The 1% that want out." If more than 1% reject the Matrix, then more than 1% should be freed.

(Sorry for posting this several days after your post, but this has always bugged me.)

**CPT_Starschwar**

Omega0 wrote:

Vinia wrote:
The Cypherites were formed to prevent Zion from waking more then the allocated 1%, a figure agreed in the treaty.

Can you prove this? Have you even read the treaty? I haven't. But I do remember the Oracle asking the Architect "What about the others? ... The ones that want out." I do NOT remember her saying "The 1% that want out." If more than 1% reject the Matrix, then more than 1% should be freed.
(Sorry for posting this several days after your post, but this has always bugged me.)

((You can't actually "remember" any of that - you weren't there.))

The Cypherites' original purpose was indeed to prevent the awakening beyond the 1% that normally rejects the simulation. Any more that would awaken were, naturally, coerced. Not that I approve of the Cypherites - they're scum. But Zion was indeed limited to awaken those that *wished* to awaken - the aforementioned 1% - and no more.

Iovai

((Fail.))

Pyraci · 02/01/2008 15:19:34

kou_urake wrote:

Omega0 wrote:
Vinia wrote:
The Cypherites were formed to prevent Zion from waking more then the allocated 1%, a figure agreed in the treaty.

Can you prove this? Have you even read the treaty? I haven't. But I do remember the Oracle asking the Architect "What about the others? ... The ones that want out." I do NOT remember her saying "The 1% that want out." If more than 1% reject the Matrix, then more than 1% should be freed.
(Sorry for posting this several days after your post, but this has always bugged me.)

((You can't actually "remember" any of that - you weren't there.))
The Cypherites' original purpose was indeed to prevent the awakening beyond the 1% that normally rejects the simulation. Any more that would awaken were, naturally, coerced. Not that I approve of the Cypherites - they're scum. But Zion was indeed limited to awaken those that *wished* to awaken - the aforementioned 1% - and no more.

(The architect never told us about the 1% directly, did he? Or was that at one of his meetings?)

Actually, the "dirty little secret" social experiment the Machine created started to come out when a man believed to be Morpheus set off code bombs around the city, forcefully freeing bluepills. The Zion military held to the choice as a whole. When all was said and done, the verbiage on the truce was "those that want out" would be freed.

Hypothetically, if that number fluctuated above 1%, the statute would still stand. Again, that's hypothetically. The 1% is a tested demographic group that(at the time) didn't accept the program when given a choice. But remember, numbers aren't above fluctuation.

Morpheus: "Consider that in the past 6 months we have freed more minds than in 6 years."

(Not starting a debate over what constitutes the 1%, just looking back at the trilogy for a more complete picture.)

**Omega0**

kou_urake wrote:

Omega0 wrote:
Vinia wrote:
The Cypherites were formed to prevent Zion from waking more then the allocated 1%, a figure agreed in the treaty.

Can you prove this? Have you even read the treaty? I haven't. But I do remember the Oracle asking the Architect "What about the others? ... The ones that want out." I do NOT remember her saying "The 1% that want out." If more than 1% reject the Matrix, then more than 1% should be freed.
(Sorry for posting this several days after your post, but this has always bugged me.)

((You can't actually "remember" any of that - you weren't there.))
The Cypherites' original purpose was indeed to prevent the awakening beyond the 1% that normally rejects the simulation. Any more that would awaken were, naturally, coerced. Not that I approve of the Cypherites - they're scum. But Zion was indeed limited to awaken those that *wished* to awaken - the aforementioned 1% - and no more.

That's ridiculous.

Architect: "As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby NEARLY 99% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level."

The number of people accept the Matrix is nearly 99%, so the number of people who reject it is slightly larger than 1%. They're not being coerced, and they should be freed. That's what the Architect agreed to.

If you still think Zion was limited to awaken exactly 1%, where is your proof? I asked for it in my last post, but I didn't get it. (As far as I know, the written treaty has never been posted in a public place. If it has, please give me the link.)

Croesis · 02/02/2008 19:01:23

Well if you are going to be pedantic about it... We go by the 1% as a general term, we know the actual number of people it pertains to can fluctuate depending on amount of people residing within the simulation at any given time. We or I also say 1% because it's quicker and easier for all concerned to say '1%' rather than '1.0000000000001% - 1.49999999999 etc... %' any more than 1.49999 etc... would mean it was closer to 98% and could not be 'nearly' 99%

If we take the wording of the Architect as gospel then 'nearly' could range from 98.5% to 98.999999999 etc... % but like I said it's easier for us Humans to say 1%.

We could go by the words of Popper:
E Pluribus Neo will continue to work for the day that everyone can choose to be free of the pods in which the Machines continue to hold 99 percent of humanity unwilling hostages under the sick guise of a "Truce."

But in an attempt at avoiding any further argument about it I'll amend my original statement.

The Cypherites were formed to prevent Zion from waking more than those who don't accept the simulation, a figure determined by the system and the architect to be a tad past 1%, as agreed to by Zion and the Machines in the treaty.