Catmandu@Sartok wrote:

Misconception #1 - "PvP players are grief players"

I have seen more 'grief' play on PvE servers over the years than not, ranging from guilds in EQ screwing up spawn timers for each other, to rampant incidents of training as a means to push people out of camps, ninja looting, to seemingly non-stop , vitrol-filled hate tells and shouts. I think PvE servers have MORE greifers ebcause there is no real accountability. On PvE servers, all that ultimately matters is having warm bodies to fill raid slots when the time comes and PvE players overlook such incidents if it means that can pad their raid rosters. (as Raids are the PvE 'end game' and a high level of trust is not really required to succeed. In FFA PvP, success is hinged on trust and accountability, and reputations follow you around and have longer lasting impact.

Misconception #2 - "I will get ganked over and over by high level players"

You might killed in a fight on occasion that you have no chance of winning, but how often this happens really depends on you. If you be a spaz and start tossing hate tells like people do on bluebie servers, the recipients can actually do something about it other than just /add ignore. They will come and drive you out of the game if thats what it takes for you to stop screeching like a schoolgirl. Its a PvP server..the end game is to kill or be killed by players so don't act like this is some kind of shock. Its the whole point of the game. At any rate, noobs who can keep a civil tongue are generally left alone by the high level players. Its the folks your own level you have to watch out for. If you keep your cool, and be cool about your PvP deaths, you may find your killer actively helping you later out of mutual respect.

Lesson: respect does not come from complaining..its something earned as a result of your actions and reactions

Misconception #3 - "Every one cheats, bots, runs speed hacks, etc."

And they don't on the bluebie servers? That junk is a fact of life, but the people who use that stuff stand out like a sore thumb. Same rule applies, use /report when you see that stuff. I have seen more activing cheating in PvE games than anything, which I find highly amusing since PvE gaming is already highly predicatable and relatively easy to 'win', so cheating in PvE games borders on the pathetic. At any rate, most folks do NOT cheat (as in use external apps), they just happen to be good at what they do (which is killing you).

Misconception #4 - "I can't trust anyone"

To this I ask, can anyone trust you? Like I said in #1, its something that has to be earned, and if you can refrain from being a doosh, then odds are good your group will not kick you out and proceed to lay down a blanket party on you. It takes some extra effort to find trustworthy people as you are NOT protected from them by game mechanics like on PvE servers. However, once trust is established in a PvP game, you have people willing to drop everything and rush to your aid and help with the payback (unlike on PvE servers where often  people just ignore everyone else in guild when someone says they need help)

Misconception #5 - "I won't be able to level up or finish quests because of all the ganking"

Not true at all..it is true you might not be able to quest at a given location at a given time because other are actively hunting players there, but Telon is a HUGE world, and there is no shortage of other places to quest or grind at until the locale you want cools down..and..if the area is hot, you can bring your pals and make the area even HOTTER for the others. No messing with 'camps'..you want that camp, you drive out the previous campers..no having to wait for them, it is PvP after all, and it is a game of 'might makes right'.

Misconception #6 - "PvP players are all leet speaking trash-talkers"

To that I say "quit spending so much time playing Halo". VG in fact has the most mature PvP players I have ever seen, and VG's PvP players are cut from the same cloth as all the other VG players, the difference is they derive 'content' from each other rather than needing SOE to give it to them. The most trash-talking I have ever seen in a game is from people who lose a fight, not from the winners, and I have seen and heard far more trash talk on PvE servers since there is no consequence for trah-talk on PvE servers. On PvP servers, you trash talk, its like painting a bullseye on your back and changing your sig to read 'Please grief me".

In fact, many PvP players collect 'hate tells' as a badge of honor (like how pygmies collect shrunken heads). You die with dignity, you get left alone. You die like squealing like a pig with Turet's Syndrome, you will get people looking for you specifically, just for the perverse joy of hearing your death rants (which will get posted for all the world to see). Its a rare thing for someone to taunt you post-mortem (and unlike PvE servers, you do not have to listen to 30 mins of sowm dweeb trying to goad you into a duel..they don't have to..rules on Sartok are simple, fight or run.)

Misconception # 7 - "PvP breaks immersion"

To this I say "are you joking?" its only when you add PvP that you unlock the true potential of MMO gaming..all your in-game actions take on extra value and meaning as you assume the added risk of PvP coming to you unannounced. Also your actions mean more to the greater community as a result to, as things like reputation, personality, etc. all move to the foreground, and as a result YOU as a player in a PvP world actually achieve the holy grail of MMO gaming, and that is making some kind of lasting difference on the game world. (rather than being yet another generic 'hero' like everyone else). Things like inter-guild relationships become part of the game content, and change, sometimes daily (that guild drama that people ignore in PvE games is actually basis for content in PvP...giving people reasons to fight, and to win.

All in all, PvP play brings the human element of MMO gaming to life and to the forefront rather than the Pve only model which is so mechanical and predictable (its like rats pressing a buzzer to get food pellets). Frankly if what passes for content can be performed with a macro better than with a player, then its not really content at all. Just filler.

Summary:

Some will read all that and STILL say "But I just don't like PvP" and I respond with its because of your misconceptions, you have developed a mental block as a result of the misdeeds of the few, and your are failing to recognize similar misdeeds on your own blubie servers. What you fail to recognize also, is that on the Sartok FFA server,,you get to do MORE, not LESS. Sartok is the true VG 'sandbox' server.

Here are some things you can do on Sartok you simply cannot do on any other server:

Guild Wars, Castle Seiges, Naval Battles, cavalry attacks. airborne attacks, group battles, (all kinds of scenario-based PvP)..all this fun stuff that happens in games like Warhammer Online or Darkfall can happen on Sartok.

or you can simply be a "Lone Wolf" player and spend all your time solo hunting other players. Whatever floats your boat..AND..you can still do all the PvE stuff. Youa re paying $14.95 a month for the game, why not get MORE from it rather than less.

Sartok FTW

 

 PS BTW..this is Kurron@Xeth since I moved to Sartok, I switched my persona to my Sartok toon

 

holy crap blubies actually giving pvp a shot, and liking it? If only more people would man up and give it a shot too

I'll be happy to roll a toon on Sartok once I get my current toon where I want him.

To your target audience: Count your blessings that you don't actually lose anything in PvP on VG. I've been playing Eve-Online since beta; 6 years of losing everything you currently have in your posession when you die and (potentially losing skills, the Eve- equivalent of de-leveling), never to be seen again, unless you come back and avenge yourself and re-loot your wreck and the other guy's. And it's the same there, the more vocal the victim, the more fun it is to grief the poop out of them, repeatedly. A lot of the time, however, those victims who take their loss calmly and curteously, they tend to end up as good friends if not corpmates of those that killed them to begin with.

An armed society is a polite society

PvP is head-on-head competition -- boxing or football style (yes there's actually a lot of cooperation in PvP).  PvE is side-by-side cooperation and the competition is more mountain climbing style...  There is competition in both but the mindset differences are telling.

In PvE, it is quite easy to honestly chear on your "opponentes" towards success at their goals.  Doing so in PvP...  masochist comes to mind.  You can easily and honestly express condolences for your opponents lack of success in PvE and have them thank you for your understanding.  In PvP, that would be "snide" and "rubbing it in".  You don't tell your opponents how to beat you but sharing tactics on how to beat others...  BOTH PvE and PvP do that.

So when your quoted author brings up "cheating" type deals -- there's a slight difference in "getting to the top first" and standing over the prostrate remains of your opponent with respect to how ticked off someone is liable to be about "cheating".

Catmandu@Sartok wrote:

Misconception #1 - "PvP players are grief players"

Agreed that most of them aren't, just enough of them to be annoying.

Misconception #2 - "I will get ganked over and over by high level players". You might killed in a fight on occasion that you have no chance of winning, but how often this happens really depends on you.

With most players this is true but, again, there is always someone who will gank you just because he can.

Misconception #3 - "Every one cheats, bots, runs speed hacks, etc."

I couldn't care less what other people do that doesn't affect me.

Misconception #4 - "I can't trust anyone". To this I ask, can anyone trust you?

Of course not, for the same reason.

Misconception #5 - "I won't be able to level up or finish quests because of all the ganking". Not true at all..it is true you might not be able to quest at a given location at a given time because other are actively hunting players there, but Telon is a HUGE world, and there is no shortage of other places to quest or grind at until the locale you want cools down.

Of course it's true, as you went on to admit, saying that the quester should go away and do something else until it's safe to continue questing again.

Misconception #6 - "PvP players are all leet speaking trash-talkers". To that I say "quit spending so much time playing Halo".

Presumably the Halo to which you refer is not the gold aura such as traditionally depicted on angels, so it's just another of your misconceptions. It's probably true that most PvP players can and do speak properly but those aren't the noisy ones that one hears all the time when entering a PvP realm.

Misconception # 7 - "PvP breaks immersion". To this I say "are you joking?"

If the world in which you choose to immerse yourself is one where you can't ever relax and chat, or spend more than 5 seconds browsing a merchant's goods because you need to stop and look around for potential threats, or constantly need guards around you, then great, PvP is meant for you. In the same way that I don't doubt that some enjoy standing in a casino throwing all their hard-earned money into some silly machine, and I don't deny them the right to do so, that doesn't mean that I would enjoy it or that I'm labouring under misconceptions about the fact that it is possible that they'll come away with more money than they entered.

Some will read all that and STILL say "But I just don't like PvP" and I respond with its because of your misconceptions, you have developed a mental block as a result of the misdeeds of the few, and your are failing to recognize similar misdeeds on your own blubie servers.

Your misconception is that you believe that we don't understand the situation, while the truth is that most of us do understand, have tried PvP at some stage, and do not choose to do it again.

What you fail to recognize also, is that on the Sartok FFA server,,you get to do MORE, not LESS. Sartok is the true VG 'sandbox' server.

Here are some things you can do on Sartok you simply cannot do on any other server:

Guild Wars, Castle Seiges, Naval Battles, cavalry attacks. airborne attacks, group battles, (all kinds of scenario-based PvP)..all this fun stuff that happens in games like Warhammer Online or Darkfall can happen on Sartok.

So you can kill others because they're in a different guild, kill others because they're inside/outside a castle and you want to be there, kill others from a boat, kill others from a horse, kill others from a griffon, kill others with others.. well I accept that it's your idea of fun but that doesn't mean that everyone else would enjoy it.

Youa re paying $14.95 a month for the game, why not get MORE from it rather than less.

As you said, you can't just quest when and where you like on a PvP server, so it takes much longer to accomplish things. A simple matter of harvesting enough materials to go craft a tier could take weeks instead of a few days, so you end up paying a subscription for time wasted. You obviously enjoy your PvP, which is great, but don't assume that the rest of don't enjoy it because we're too stupid to understand it.

I a die hard pvp fan. I love being competitive, but for there to be competition that's meaningful there needs to be set limits for both sides.

1st off, VG pvp mechanics are broken beyond any sort of repair, and the whole system would have to be revamped. Classes often determine a fight. Hell I was on my psi getting my bank items rdy for transfer to seradon and I saw a 50 DK, so, with my psi who I hadn't played in over a year, with horrible gear, I layed a few dots on this raid geared DK and ran away with psi barrier / mass accel and *Ching* DK dead. Was I a better player then that guy? Hell no, I didn't even know what half the buttons on my hotbar did, I didn't even pick a stance (forgot psi's had concentrations). Why did I kill him? Because I had a better class then he did.

2nd, lets get into gear. If both sides of fairly equal classes (which almost never happens) then gear comes into play. a group in full apw raid gear vs a group in swamp armor and it's common sense on who's going to win. It's not skill, it's (who put more time in apw then the other team).

That would be about on par with 2 pro football teams playing against each other while 1 team wears full regulation gear while the other team wear's nothing but underwear and socks.

Lets not forget that many fights are simply determined by "Who gets the jump on who" Due to broken mechanics and reduculous damage that some classes can do in pvp, fights often last less than 6-8 seconds. My monk can burn a bard down in about 2-3 shuriken throws while im being kited. Thats not even an ability! Thats just throwing weapon damage.

Honestly if you want great FFA pvp with a bit of meaning, try Mortal online. The beta is pretty fun so far and full loot pvp + pretty balanced classes makes the game pretty rewarding if you like pvp (VG no loot rule is absolutly lame!). If you like FPS's, L4D has great balanced VS mode where takes 4 players working together to either survive as humans or work together as 4 special zombies to try to kill the survivors. Everyone is afforded the same tools as the other team, all it boils down to is practice and skill.

VG pvp is broken and a joke. /who all count shows 50 players online for the whole server during weekend prime time. There is a reason for it.

Good posts!  Valid points here and there but I generally agree.

Daysy wrote:

Catmandu@Sartok wrote:

Misconception #1 - "PvP players are grief players"

Agreed that most of them aren't, just enough of them to be annoying.

Misconception #2 - "I will get ganked over and over by high level players". You might killed in a fight on occasion that you have no chance of winning, but how often this happens really depends on you.

With most players this is true but, again, there is always someone who will gank you just because he can.

Misconception #3 - "Every one cheats, bots, runs speed hacks, etc."

I couldn't care less what other people do that doesn't affect me.

Misconception #4 - "I can't trust anyone". To this I ask, can anyone trust you?

Of course not, for the same reason.

Misconception #5 - "I won't be able to level up or finish quests because of all the ganking". Not true at all..it is true you might not be able to quest at a given location at a given time because other are actively hunting players there, but Telon is a HUGE world, and there is no shortage of other places to quest or grind at until the locale you want cools down.

Of course it's true, as you went on to admit, saying that the quester should go away and do something else until it's safe to continue questing again.

Misconception #6 - "PvP players are all leet speaking trash-talkers". To that I say "quit spending so much time playing Halo".

Presumably the Halo to which you refer is not the gold aura such as traditionally depicted on angels, so it's just another of your misconceptions. It's probably true that most PvP players can and do speak properly but those aren't the noisy ones that one hears all the time when entering a PvP realm.

Misconception # 7 - "PvP breaks immersion". To this I say "are you joking?"

If the world in which you choose to immerse yourself is one where you can't ever relax and chat, or spend more than 5 seconds browsing a merchant's goods because you need to stop and look around for potential threats, or constantly need guards around you, then great, PvP is meant for you. In the same way that I don't doubt that some enjoy standing in a casino throwing all their hard-earned money into some silly machine, and I don't deny them the right to do so, that doesn't mean that I would enjoy it or that I'm labouring under misconceptions about the fact that it is possible that they'll come away with more money than they entered.

Some will read all that and STILL say "But I just don't like PvP" and I respond with its because of your misconceptions, you have developed a mental block as a result of the misdeeds of the few, and your are failing to recognize similar misdeeds on your own blubie servers.

Your misconception is that you believe that we don't understand the situation, while the truth is that most of us do understand, have tried PvP at some stage, and do not choose to do it again.

What you fail to recognize also, is that on the Sartok FFA server,,you get to do MORE, not LESS. Sartok is the true VG 'sandbox' server.

Here are some things you can do on Sartok you simply cannot do on any other server:

Guild Wars, Castle Seiges, Naval Battles, cavalry attacks. airborne attacks, group battles, (all kinds of scenario-based PvP)..all this fun stuff that happens in games like Warhammer Online or Darkfall can happen on Sartok.

So you can kill others because they're in a different guild, kill others because they're inside/outside a castle and you want to be there, kill others from a boat, kill others from a horse, kill others from a griffon, kill others with others.. well I accept that it's your idea of fun but that doesn't mean that everyone else would enjoy it.

Youa re paying $14.95 a month for the game, why not get MORE from it rather than less.

As you said, you can't just quest when and where you like on a PvP server, so it takes much longer to accomplish things. A simple matter of harvesting enough materials to go craft a tier could take weeks instead of a few days, so you end up paying a subscription for time wasted. You obviously enjoy your PvP, which is great, but don't assume that the rest of don't enjoy it because we're too stupid to understand it.

On sartok, you have wolves, and you have sheep.  Three gueses as to which one this guy was.

TheWhorf wrote:

Daysy wrote:

Catmandu@Sartok wrote:

Misconception #1 - "PvP players are grief players"

Agreed that most of them aren't, just enough of them to be annoying.

Misconception #2 - "I will get ganked over and over by high level players". You might killed in a fight on occasion that you have no chance of winning, but how often this happens really depends on you.

With most players this is true but, again, there is always someone who will gank you just because he can.

Misconception #3 - "Every one cheats, bots, runs speed hacks, etc."

I couldn't care less what other people do that doesn't affect me.

Misconception #4 - "I can't trust anyone". To this I ask, can anyone trust you?

Of course not, for the same reason.

Misconception #5 - "I won't be able to level up or finish quests because of all the ganking". Not true at all..it is true you might not be able to quest at a given location at a given time because other are actively hunting players there, but Telon is a HUGE world, and there is no shortage of other places to quest or grind at until the locale you want cools down.

Of course it's true, as you went on to admit, saying that the quester should go away and do something else until it's safe to continue questing again.

Misconception #6 - "PvP players are all leet speaking trash-talkers". To that I say "quit spending so much time playing Halo".

Presumably the Halo to which you refer is not the gold aura such as traditionally depicted on angels, so it's just another of your misconceptions. It's probably true that most PvP players can and do speak properly but those aren't the noisy ones that one hears all the time when entering a PvP realm.

Misconception # 7 - "PvP breaks immersion". To this I say "are you joking?"

If the world in which you choose to immerse yourself is one where you can't ever relax and chat, or spend more than 5 seconds browsing a merchant's goods because you need to stop and look around for potential threats, or constantly need guards around you, then great, PvP is meant for you. In the same way that I don't doubt that some enjoy standing in a casino throwing all their hard-earned money into some silly machine, and I don't deny them the right to do so, that doesn't mean that I would enjoy it or that I'm labouring under misconceptions about the fact that it is possible that they'll come away with more money than they entered.

Some will read all that and STILL say "But I just don't like PvP" and I respond with its because of your misconceptions, you have developed a mental block as a result of the misdeeds of the few, and your are failing to recognize similar misdeeds on your own blubie servers.

Your misconception is that you believe that we don't understand the situation, while the truth is that most of us do understand, have tried PvP at some stage, and do not choose to do it again.

What you fail to recognize also, is that on the Sartok FFA server,,you get to do MORE, not LESS. Sartok is the true VG 'sandbox' server.

Here are some things you can do on Sartok you simply cannot do on any other server:

Guild Wars, Castle Seiges, Naval Battles, cavalry attacks. airborne attacks, group battles, (all kinds of scenario-based PvP)..all this fun stuff that happens in games like Warhammer Online or Darkfall can happen on Sartok.

So you can kill others because they're in a different guild, kill others because they're inside/outside a castle and you want to be there, kill others from a boat, kill others from a horse, kill others from a griffon, kill others with others.. well I accept that it's your idea of fun but that doesn't mean that everyone else would enjoy it.

Youa re paying $14.95 a month for the game, why not get MORE from it rather than less.

As you said, you can't just quest when and where you like on a PvP server, so it takes much longer to accomplish things. A simple matter of harvesting enough materials to go craft a tier could take weeks instead of a few days, so you end up paying a subscription for time wasted. You obviously enjoy your PvP, which is great, but don't assume that the rest of don't enjoy it because we're too stupid to understand it.

On sartok, you have wolves, and you have sheep.  Three gueses as to which one this guy was.

The wolves and sheep analogy derails your misconceptions stance.

Either your stance is true, or the "wolves and sheep" is true.   While you can have a mixture of both, neither can be an absolute truth without the other being a falsehood.

Abdul_ben_Bougette wrote:

The wolves and sheep analogy derails your misconceptions stance.

Either your stance is true, or the "wolves and sheep" is true.   While you can have a mixture of both, neither can be an absolute truth without the other being a falsehood.

Wolves and sheep do exist within pvp here.  The matter has nothing to do with the above misconecptions.  With the rich pve ALL VG severs share, some sartokians chose to focus on it, while others are focusing on them.  There is nothing unhealthy about it, it's typical good/evil.  

Wolves/sheep is not an insult (though many sheep mistakenly take it as one).  It's simply a matter of personal choices in gameplay.  There are many wolves on Sartok who simply hunt and kill in silence.. all while their sheepish victims propagate the poor image pvp takes on in these forums. 

The hunted sheep continue to contribute the most towards damaging Sartok's image.  One look at the Sartok forums tells the tale, it's become the land of excuse makers.  Much of what is seen in these forums is the sign of desperate players fighting to make up for their in game shortcomings.  Why I have no idea.  It's just a game and all Sartok does is provide the same pve content plus more

SARTOK IS PVE +1     

Noonan@Sartok wrote:

One look at the Sartok forums tells the tale, it's become the land of excuse makers.  Much of what is seen in these forums is the sign of desperate players fighting to make up for their in game shortcomings.  Why I have no idea.  It's just a game and all Sartok does is provide the same pve content plus more

 

One look at Sartok's server population tells a better tale. Yes, pvp server generally have a lower pop than the pve servers on just about any game, but 1 pvp server with 60-70 players online during primetime paints the picture quite clear.

You write as if the reason why people leave or quit is because of "Skill shortcomings", but Many skilled, veteran pvpers who did extremely well left VG, some quit VG all together, some just moved to pve server.

VG pvp is broke, always has been, and has received no attention at all from the devs (Though pvp received little attention because of it's small pop, yet it had a small pop because of the lack of dev attention. It's a cycle that's sadly unavoidable)

VG is the best PVE game out there, but broken pvp mechanics has chased off all the serious and competitive pvp players. If the dev team one day revamped pvp, and fixed all the broken mechanics and balanced classes better, I would agree that VG pvp would = PVE +1.

But as of right now, it's primarily a PVE game with PVP on. (You spend all day with such a small pop and a huge world that pvp encounters are few and far between, combine that with the fact that gear/class contribute more to victory then actual skill, makes for a very very poor pvp game). AND on top of all that, the pop is extremely small, so getting your hands on enough skilled players to do the PVE content is extremely frustrating, if not impossible (Much of the raid content on sartok remains untouched.

Sorry but untill VG pvp gets some dev attention and gets revamped, I would never recommend to anyone to play on sartok.

Rinntin@Sartok wrote:

You write as if the reason why people leave or quit is because of "Skill shortcomings", but Many skilled, veteran pvpers who did extremely well left VG, some quit VG all together, some just moved to pve server.

VG pvp is broke, always has been, and has received no attention at all from the devs (Though pvp received little attention because of it's small pop, yet it had a small pop because of the lack of dev attention. It's a cycle that's sadly unavoidable)

VG is the best PVE game out there, but broken pvp mechanics has chased off all the serious and competitive pvp players. If the dev team one day revamped pvp, and fixed all the broken mechanics and balanced classes better, I would agree that VG pvp would = PVE +1.

But as of right now, it's primarily a PVE game with PVP on. (You spend all day with such a small pop and a huge world that pvp encounters are few and far between, combine that with the fact that gear/class contribute more to victory then actual skill, makes for a very very poor pvp game). AND on top of all that, the pop is extremely small, so getting your hands on enough skilled players to do the PVE content is extremely frustrating, if not impossible (Much of the raid content on sartok remains untouched.

Sorry but untill VG pvp gets some dev attention and gets revamped, I would never recommend to anyone to play on sartok.

Where in my text do you find any comment of population? 

I only responded to Abdul's comment of wolf/sheep (or good/evil) in a pvp enviorment.  I believe this is actually healthy, and has nothing to do with any of the OP's misconception list.  He seemed to feel they contradicted each other. 

There are pages upon pages of posts by pve players in these forums expressing frustration over the games function.  Look at the responses to the last patch alone.  Sorry to tell you, but the state of VG pvp is very much like the rest of the game - on pve it's just easier to turn a blind eye to it.     

Found out about the free month. Came back to Sartok. It's very dead.

After a 3 day stint return, I am very up in the air with Sartok. I had fun for the first 3 days, up till today when I remembered something I hated about the pvp mechanics. After 3 days I finally get a group large enough to do some of the new content, and maybe work on getting to level 51. I joined a newly returning and struggling guild with players like myself..... trying to find a foothold in Sartok.

We get attacked while doing some of the new PVE content, and kill the players attacking us. The alter is only right over the hill. They continue zerging us, bringing us slowly closer and closer to the alter, with little to no life over and over. They were a full group consisting of nothing but Shammy/Druid. They continued sending 3+ pheonix at us over and over till we were running low on mana and stamina/endurance. Eventually they zerg us to death, from the alter. Then they back up a bit and begin camping us, with pets and ranged spell attacks. After a few deaths we decide to regroup at a different location. This games mechanics allow them to arrive at our location in very very little time, before we were prepared or regrouped. And then begins the smacktalk.

Needless to say, Its a horrible mechanic when others can make it back to you in 30-60 secs and prevent you from getting anything done for extended periods of time. I just returned and when we finally get a party up and running, it was the equivallant of putting a huge target on our back. I would be fine with being engaged by a hostile guild, who likes to run people off the server, if there was some kind of drawback to thier deaths and it took some time for the dead to return to our location. Say, 10 mins would sound fair.

In zone alters and teleporters have made it much too easy for a handfull of resident elite to alter zerg and chase off any new competition before it even catches up and begins.

Hi Rinntin, glad to see you made it back from Iraq. Tell the wife Hi. -Ninpovin

this is indeed a nice post about game mechanics.

These mechanics though are not specific to pve ONLY.

There are many occasions, not bound to apw lag fest, where fighting a mob will lag you to death when mob kills a player or mob gets killed by players. Lag fest also becomes visible when mob spawns adds.

Specific abilities like a druid's wolf spell that reduces spell costs lag everyother player to death. COmbo abilites/macroed will also lag a raid or a party.

Get a player near a bird shaman or a necro. They will spam their macros to hell bypassing global cooldown timers and lag you to death before you can even move.

Get a player who can also macro his abilities to fight you in pvp...... LAG!!!!!!!!!

Get a player who suddenly shows up out of nowhere in invisibility. When you see him you also lag to hell.

Wanna lag someone to hell who has just logged in? Spawn any mount.

Invisibility/sneaking/hidining skills? there are always like 4-6 sec lags when these skills are being used in pvp in various occasions.

And this is the first part of the game in the so called pvp system.

Then comes classes and racials. Too long to discuss. All i can say is poor warriors.. (just as i said that for about 1.5 years for poor Sorcerors)

But as it has often been posted...... invuls in pvp? yeah right

50m range from hiding classes? yeah lag fest and dead from macros. At least this was nerfed/balanced up abit

Rogues using macros from sneak ? you get one shotted...

The list can be endless and quite contradictory!!! The outcome and what you see at the end of the day is simply an empty server. No concern from developers for whatever reasons they have (not criticising anything at this point).

The answer to the misconceptions you are trying to point out would best be answered by those who created toons on this server and then left, those who came from pve to Sartok then left again and all those people who left Sartok to go pve... There are way more reasons beyond the serve being dead... Way more beyond hacking or exploiting.