Omegga@Seradon wrote:
The way I see it, it has become a dispute of who get what damage buffs, and who gets what defensive buffs...
I'll start with DK's since I know the most about them:
For months, the Dread Knight Shield of Fear and Dark Bastion were bugged, to where it was spiking between non-existent DC and then back to where it should be, on and off during a fight (for 5sec you would have your +18% block, the next 5sec you wouldn't, etc)... That was finally fixed, and right after that they began adding DC counters to mobs so DK defense was going backwards again.
These changes now give DK's a reliable +15% damage which was always present when testing tank hate generation/dps from constant DC5 (however, it's been a long time since thorough tank hate generation testing has been done)
Other than that, our only dmg buff is self only +100%dmg for 30sec (10min reuse - without buffs) - Excluding Symbol of Wrath which I believe now adds +90dmg to attacks (on test)
Warriors, seem to have their mind fixed on obtaining a +100% damage ability... Other than the paladin's offensive aura, you are the only tank with group dmg "buffs" (and Commander's Presence + Orders)... Consequently, raid mechanics allow you to be in the DPS groups, because you MAY benefit the raid the most there giving you an optimal dmg setup... Warriors have been classified as the DPS tanks, but just because you dont have a +100% dmg ability, doesn't falsify this claim...
Staying in the raid scenario:
I am unsure how easy it is for a warrior to maintain energy fully buffed, but I rarely see them run out during a raid (Since I don't play one, I am openly admitting that I could be wrong)
Abilities with no refreshes:
Power Attack V - +18% damage
Unyielding Might - +9% damage
Abilities with refreshes (unbuffed):
(2min refresh) Enrage II - +20% damage 18sec
(1min refresh) Myrmidon's Gift - self 3sec crit
(1min refresh?) Strike Now - 3 sec group crit
(1min refresh) Press Attack - group 25% melee dmg 8sec
(1min refresh) Shout of Fury - +100str for 20sec
(1min refresh) Barrage - group +20% ranged and spell dmg 8sec
These buffs alone are giving you atleast +72%dmg (depending on str from Shout of Fury) for 8sec, followed by +47%dmg for the next 10sec, and then +27%dmg from then on out (depending on energy use from Power Attack)... With raid buffs (and maybe electrified earring of speed) included I am assuming these drop to 45sec re-use or 1min30sec for Enrage... With these refresh timers, and bursts you give to groups it more than compensates for a +100% self damage ability... Warriors are the best tank when it comes to hate over time, given these abilities and their descriptions:
Cleave II: 19,038 hate over 60sec / 1000 dmg every 3sec / -30%mitigation (highest in game)
Stinging Cut V: 150%weapon dmg / 856 instant hate / 3706 hate over 16sec
Blades Bite III: 250%weapon dmg / 985 instant hate / 3784 - 3983 hate over 16sec
Savage Cut VI: 4515 hate over 60sec
Not to mention you can now macro Infuriating Shot (no global cooldown) in since bows and xbows have a range of 0-"X"
Other things unique to warriors are their no refresh timer 3 chain finisher (Decimate, Obliterate, and Destroy)... Since I have never leveled a paladin I am unsure of their crit... However, I can say that warriors have either #2 or #3 highest crit chance of any class in game (helped by their non-globals such as Pommel Smash and Kick *now best stance pushers*, and as far as I know 2 force crit abilities, with Cleave also being +20% crit for 10sec)... DK's have no force crit abilites and no non-global melee abilities to open crit chains (DC does raise crit chance, but also for anyone else in the encounter)
When it comes to defense - I acknowledge that warriors have the lowest block, by 1-6% depending on the group setup... However, when comparing the different defensive abilities of both tank classes, this block doesn't seem as big of an issue in terms of "inbalance"... Both the DK and Warrior 25% rune abilties are pretty much on the same playing field, correct me if you think I am wrong... The DK does have 1 invul for 10sec (10min re-use) but warriors do have a 15sec 100% block (3min re-use), which to me BoS is more useful than an invul that you have to use so sparingly. Before anyone brings up the point of DC5 damage reduction (-10%), since last I heard, the devs didn't effectively change the levels of DC. So now we may be able to debuff a mobs damage by 10% for a few sec, but DC1 does debuff -2%, DC2 -4%, DC3 -6%, and DC -8%, which they should since we sell all 5 repeatedly throughout the fight. But warriors do have 10% dmg rune to group for 10sec (unbuffed 1min re-use) and disarm is a -12% melee dmg debuff for 15sec (unbuffed 1min re-use).
I am not trying to be offensive to any warriors that think they are being imbalanced by this DK fix, adjustment, or whatever you want to call it... The point I am trying to make is, the change the DK's are recieving is a very marginal improvement (if any) before this new concept of DC resetting was implemented... And while comparing it to the abilities a warrior has, I don't think this change puts DK's either far below or high above warriors when it comes to tanking... But in all honesty, we really won't know till lvl 55 raid content.
Omegga I have parses to SHOW YOU and Guen that 27% damage is NOT sustainable
Warriors are the dps tanks we take a back seat for you DK's to do BURN raid content which is 90% of this game since the faster a RAID can burn a mob the better the chances of the TANK surviving thus its BURN BURN BURN
Warriors took a HUGE DPS nerf to accommodate the 2 tanks in trade for what a 3 minute re use 15 second block?
Less dps in trade for LESS hate compared to Paladins and DK
We swallowed our pride long ago not being able to do solo content with good rewards coming from 5 - 6 DOT mobs that DK's can do so easily and keep misdirecting the accusation that warriors can kill faster WE DONT CARE WE WANT UR SURVIVABILITY in being able to do solo content
DK get their wish in 15% +90 sustained damage ALL THE TIME MORE DPS THAN WARRIOR in group content
Also your argument about:
"Other things unique to warriors are their no refresh timer 3 chain finisher (Decimate, Obliterate, and Destroy)."
ARE OUTDATED ASK YOUR GUILD LEADER TO TANK NON STOP without RAID BUFFS Cleric / Bear
And SEE if he parses as high as he does when he RUNS out of ENDURANCE
I also have the macro I use to hold and sustain hate against high dps classes and fast burn group content
http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/p...&topic_id=48102
I use 117 endurance NOT enough to sustain my 25% step 2 finisher and step 3 finisher chain because I AM WAITING FOR endurance even with disciple inner light I AM WAITING
NO 25% damage from Press the Attack that lasts 8 seconds for Obliterate
NO 25% damage from Press the Attack that lasts 8 seconds for Destroy
DONT Believe me believe the parses I will put up with Scotis level 52 DK from The Mafia guild we grinded alot of SOD Dogs.
a DK with15% +90 damage 18% block 900AC all the time is equal to warrior dps
WARRIOR NEED 100% DAMAGE FOR 30 SECONDS 10 MIN RE USE LIKE YOU WE WONT SETTLE FOR LESS
IF U CAN DO SAME DPS AS WARRIORS, WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO DO THE SAME RAID BOSS BURN CONTENT AS YOU WE WONT SETTLE FOR LESS
MY ARGUMENTS ARE ALL VALID
POST MY PARSES AT THE LINK I PROVIDED AND YOU SEE HOW CLOSE THE DPS SCOTIS IS TO MINE I HAD BETTER GEAR OVERALL MORE +MDR YET I COULD NOT SUSTAIN POWER ATTACK AND RAN OUT OF ENERGY ON MOST OF MY ABILITIES
POST YOUR PARSE THAT YOUR REALLY HURTING DOING GROUP CONTENT!
SAME GEAR WARRIOR, SAME GEAR DK, SAME BUFFS
I POST MINE, LESS DPS DUE TO UNSUSTAINABLE +18% DAMAGE FROM POWER ATTACK
RUNNING OUT OF ENDURANCE LOSING 25% DAMAGE FROM PRESS THE ATTACK SINCE IT LASTS 8 SECONDS MY LAST 2 STEP FINISHER CHAINS ARE GETTING NO 25% DAMAGE BENEFIT DUE TO WAITING ON ENDURANCE EVEN WITH DISCIPLE IN GROUP!