Outside source just throwing a tid-bit of information in here...

I feel much safer (in both PVE AND PVP) with a Paladin or Dread Knight than I do with a Warrior.

Take it for what it's worth.

Ok I m glad DK's got some love

15% dmg every 5 mins self buff 

8% mit though 900AC 5 mins self buff

DK's are the worst trash tanks in game

Warriors need something like DK 30 sec 100% dmg burst for raid boss

Warriors are the worst raid boss tanks in game I doubt anyone can deny most of our raid content is burn fights

Raid dps is significantly lower when a Pally or DK tanks because they have a 100% burst ability

DK has one every 10 mins and pally has one every 6 - 8 mins?

Where is mine?

also I forgot with HTL endurance and energy nerf warriors are tied to endurance and energy to use our burst abilities we' re often running out and we get no endurance buff till level 55

Bloodrage this adds 40 to max endurance and regens 16 endurance every tick duration is 24 seconds:

  currently on a 3 minute global cooldown this needs to be significantly lower 1 minute to balance out the endurance nerf for hold the line for group content

grim determination on defensive stance it heals on offensive stance this gives mana:

 DK's have a high survivability with their life taps and Paladins can heal currently they are the only 2 tanks that can solo 5 DoT content why cant warriors do that?

 DK's got more damage now 15% more mitigation 900AC = 8% mit

DK's got a huge life tap

 Grim Determination should add more significant amounts of hit points to keep the warrior alive

 Grim Determination should also add energy regen when it is used regardless of the stances to balance out the 5% energy savings taken out from Hold the Line.

Athryn wrote:

Ok I m glad DK's got some love

15% dmg every 5 mins self buff 

8% mit though 900AC 5 mins self buff

DK's are the worst trash tanks in game

Warriors need something like DK 30 sec 100% dmg burst for raid boss

Warriors are the worst raid boss tanks in game I doubt anyone can deny most of our raid content is burn fights

Raid dps is significantly lower when a Pally or DK tanks because they have a 100% burst ability

DK has one every 10 mins and pally has one every 6 - 8 mins?

Where is mine?

also I forgot with HTL endurance and energy nerf warriors are tied to endurance and energy to use our burst abilities we' re often running out and we get no endurance buff till level 55

Bloodrage this adds 40 to max endurance and regens 16 endurance every tick duration is 24 seconds:

  currently on a 3 minute global cooldown this needs to be significantly lower 1 minute to balance out the endurance nerf for hold the line for group content

grim determination on defensive stance it heals on offensive stance this gives mana:

 DK's have a high survivability with their life taps and Paladins can heal currently they are the only 2 tanks that can solo 5 DoT content why cant warriors do that?

 DK's got more damage now 15% more mitigation 900AC = 8% mit

DK's got a huge life tap

 Grim Determination should add more significant amounts of hit points to keep the warrior alive

 Grim Determination should also add energy regen when it is used regardless of the stances to balance out the 5% energy savings taken out from Hold the Line.

 

In addition to the other changes that DKs are getting, they will get 15% essentially permanent and essentially free +damage through their shield of fear finisher line.  It lasts for 5 minutes and is reusable nearly at will for very little cost.  They already had a +100% damage skill as well as other ways to grab instant aggro and  warriors already were more or less locked out of tanking end-game content before these changes to DKs.  If you are a warrior and you regulary MT Varking, Guar, Fengrot, Slim Jim, etc... speak up, because I don't think there are many out there.

A long reuse (8 - 10 minute) 100% +damage burst skill would help warriors be able to MT raid targets that are currently "Pally or DK only".  Right now, there are practically no warrior MTs for end game content simply by virtue of the fact that you can't stand around for 2 minutes and allow the warrior to build aggro on most targets.

The warrior class is also limited by energy due to the large number of skills that require it and their very poor energy regen abilities. Power Attack was bad at level 50 when it required (I think) 45 energy PER SECOND to maintain but now it is even worse as the energy drain goes up every level and is now 51 at level 54 with NO INCREASE IN DAMAGE.  It is nearly impossible to keep Power Attack up even when fully raid buffed and with a bard playing a few energy regen components in a dps song.  Add to this the fact that warriors require energy for all of those wonderful commands and shouts that Guen is so quick to point out as well as our ranged force taunt and force crit abilities.  Energy use is killing us.  At least before, with Hold the Line we could reduce the costs by a small amount.  What we really need is to have the energy requirement on some of these skills lowered.  Most notably, Power Attack should be reduced to no more than 25 energy/sec which would still make it impossible to leave on all the time without psi/bird shaman buffs AND some bard energy regen.

Additionally, Warriors still spend much of their time in defensive stance unless they are just tagging along while a real tank is tanking or are fighting Guar or Slim Jim (because they sure as hell won't be tanking).  Fix Grim Determination by splitting it into 2 skills so that it works the same way in defensive as it works in offensive.  We've asked for this for months and I don't see what the big deal is about making this change.

Murderous Cleave is a sore subject for most warriors.  This is a level 50 skill that is currently on content that level 55s can barely kill in SoD.  Can we please get some sanity here and make it a) trade-able and b) drop off any SoD named?  I don't think that is asking much.  Because 1 or 2 warriors were doing too much dps while in offensive and in perfect group setups wearing the best dps gear in the game (not tanking gear), we lost a lot of dps and had this "gift" dangled in front of us as a way to get some of it back.  This is insulting.

We were already the #3 tank for raid tanking, but after these DK changes their will be little or no reason to ever use a warrior as a tank except on trash.

Punishment wrote:

Athryn wrote:

Ok I m glad DK's got some love

15% dmg every 5 mins self buff 

8% mit though 900AC 5 mins self buff

DK's are the worst trash tanks in game

Warriors need something like DK 30 sec 100% dmg burst for raid boss

Warriors are the worst raid boss tanks in game I doubt anyone can deny most of our raid content is burn fights

Raid dps is significantly lower when a Pally or DK tanks because they have a 100% burst ability

DK has one every 10 mins and pally has one every 6 - 8 mins?

Where is mine?

also I forgot with HTL endurance and energy nerf warriors are tied to endurance and energy to use our burst abilities we' re often running out and we get no endurance buff till level 55

Bloodrage this adds 40 to max endurance and regens 16 endurance every tick duration is 24 seconds:

  currently on a 3 minute global cooldown this needs to be significantly lower 1 minute to balance out the endurance nerf for hold the line for group content

grim determination on defensive stance it heals on offensive stance this gives mana:

 DK's have a high survivability with their life taps and Paladins can heal currently they are the only 2 tanks that can solo 5 DoT content why cant warriors do that?

 DK's got more damage now 15% more mitigation 900AC = 8% mit

DK's got a huge life tap

 Grim Determination should add more significant amounts of hit points to keep the warrior alive

 Grim Determination should also add energy regen when it is used regardless of the stances to balance out the 5% energy savings taken out from Hold the Line.

 

 

In addition to the other changes that DKs are getting, they will get 15% essentially permanent and essentially free +damage through their shield of fear finisher line.  It lasts for 5 minutes and is reusable nearly at will for very little cost.  They already had a +100% damage skill as well as other ways to grab instant aggro and  warriors already were more or less locked out of tanking end-game content before these changes to DKs.  If you are a warrior and you regulary MT Varking, Guar, Fengrot, Slim Jim, etc... speak up, because I don't think there are many out there.

A long reuse (8 - 10 minute) 100% +damage burst skill would help warriors be able to MT raid targets that are currently "Pally or DK only".  Right now, there are practically no warrior MTs for end game content simply by virtue of the fact that you can't stand around for 2 minutes and allow the warrior to build aggro on most targets.

The warrior class is also limited by energy due to the large number of skills that require it and their very poor energy regen abilities. Power Attack was bad at level 50 when it required (I think) 45 energy PER SECOND to maintain but now it is even worse as the energy drain goes up every level and is now 51 at level 54 with NO INCREASE IN DAMAGE.  It is nearly impossible to keep Power Attack up even when fully raid buffed and with a bard playing a few energy regen components in a dps song.  Add to this the fact that warriors require energy for all of those wonderful commands and shouts that Guen is so quick to point out as well as our ranged force taunt and force crit abilities.  Energy use is killing us.  At least before, with Hold the Line we could reduce the costs by a small amount.  What we really need is to have the energy requirement on some of these skills lowered.  Most notably, Power Attack should be reduced to no more than 25 energy/sec which would still make it impossible to leave on all the time without psi/bird shaman buffs AND some bard energy regen.

Additionally, Warriors still spend much of their time in defensive stance unless they are just tagging along while a real tank is tanking or are fighting Guar or Slim Jim (because they sure as hell won't be tanking).  Fix Grim Determination by splitting it into 2 skills so that it works the same way in defensive as it works in offensive.  We've asked for this for months and I don't see what the big deal is about making this change.

Murderous Cleave is a sore subject for most warriors.  This is a level 50 skill that is currently on content that level 55s can barely kill in SoD.  Can we please get some sanity here and make it a) trade-able and b) drop off any SoD named?  I don't think that is asking much.  Because 1 or 2 warriors were doing too much dps while in offensive and in perfect group setups wearing the best dps gear in the game (not tanking gear), we lost a lot of dps and had this "gift" dangled in front of us as a way to get some of it back.  This is insulting.

We were already the #3 tank for raid tanking, but after these DK changes their will be little or no reason to ever use a warrior as a tank except on trash.

 

In regards to the 15% damage....Dk's already got this through DC5, so its not like we never had this before. Trust me, Without mobs lowering DC every 10secs (which is a fairly new concept) we had DC5 within 10-15 secs anyway so the change of putting it on a crit chain is hardly game breaking. In fact, activating the crit chain, using SoF and DB and gaining DC5 actually took roughly the same amount of time. So using "Dk's now have 15% damage" is invalid.

Warriors have problems with energy?? Welcome to the club!

Even if true, the mantra was DK is 'best in long fights'.  Now it's DK is 'best in all fights'.  Strikes as unbalancing.  Personally, I still think that the 18% block is a bug - 3% per level of DC and maxxing at DC5 should equal.... umn... 15%.  The difference between 15% and 14% isn't much so it always made sense.  Anyway, let's not nerf Shield of Fear, let's increase Warder's Bulwark... because then the difference isn't big between paladin #1 (as designed), DK and warrior.  Block is such a key stat, it has to be the same.

Maybe a dev can chime in on this or they just going to ignore it as every is ok?

It's not ignored.  It meets with flippant humour.

Silius take a look at the endurance and energy nerf on Hold the Line

I`m not asking you to put it back in but for anyone level 1 - 54 the only endurance regen comes from Bloodrage currently on 3 minute reuse

Grim Determination offensive stance energy regen works only in offensive stance

can you at least balance the endurance and energy nerf from Hold the Line:

by lowering Bloodrage reuse to 1 minute

by making Grim Determination energy regen component work regardless of stances

Question to Silius (or any other dev)

Are the block% values listed under the tooltip under Defense abilities from Character Screen accurate, especially for the defensive fighters?

Thank you.

The way I see it, it has become a dispute of who get what damage buffs, and who gets what defensive buffs...

I'll start with DK's since I know the most about them:

For months, the Dread Knight Shield of Fear and Dark Bastion were bugged, to where it was spiking between non-existent DC and then back to where it should be, on and off during a fight (for 5sec you would have your +18% block, the next 5sec you wouldn't, etc)... That was finally fixed, and right after that they began adding DC counters to mobs so DK defense was going backwards again.

These changes now give DK's a reliable +15% damage which was always present when testing tank hate generation/dps from constant DC5 (however, it's been a long time since thorough tank hate generation testing has been done)

Other than that, our only dmg buff is self only +100%dmg for 30sec (10min reuse - without buffs) - Excluding Symbol of Wrath which I believe now adds +90dmg to attacks (on test)

Warriors, seem to have their mind fixed on obtaining a +100% damage ability... Other than the paladin's offensive aura, you are the only tank with group dmg "buffs" (and Commander's Presence + Orders)... Consequently, raid mechanics allow you to be in the DPS groups, because you MAY benefit the raid the most there giving you an optimal dmg setup... Warriors have been classified as the DPS tanks, but just because you dont have a +100% dmg ability, doesn't falsify this claim...

Staying in the raid scenario:

I am unsure how easy it is for a warrior to maintain energy fully buffed, but I rarely see them run out during a raid (Since I don't play one, I am openly admitting that I could be wrong)

Abilities with no refreshes:

Power Attack V - +18% damage

Unyielding Might - +9% damage

Abilities with refreshes (unbuffed):

(2min refresh) Enrage II - +20% damage 18sec

(1min refresh) Myrmidon's Gift - self 3sec crit

(1min refresh?) Strike Now - 3 sec group crit

(1min refresh) Press Attack - group 25% melee dmg 8sec

(1min refresh) Shout of Fury - +100str for 20sec

(1min refresh) Barrage - group +20% ranged and spell dmg 8sec

(1min refresh) Shout of Defiance - +16%dmg for 8sec

These buffs alone are giving you atleast +88%dmg (depending on str from Shout of Fury) for 8sec, followed by +47%dmg for the next 10sec, and then +27%dmg from then on out (depending on energy use from Power Attack)... With raid buffs (and maybe electrified earring of speed) included I am assuming these drop to 45sec re-use or 1min30sec for Enrage... With these refresh timers, and bursts you give to groups it more than compensates for a +100% self damage ability... Warriors are the best tank when it comes to hate over time, given these abilities and their descriptions:

Cleave II: 19,038 hate over 60sec / 1000 dmg every 3sec / -30%mitigation (highest in game)

Stinging Cut V: 150%weapon dmg / 856 instant hate / 3706 hate over 16sec

Blades Bite III: 250%weapon dmg / 985 instant hate / 3784 - 3983 hate over 16sec

Savage Cut VI: 4515 hate over 60sec

Not to mention you can now macro Infuriating Shot (no global cooldown) in since bows and xbows have a range of 0-"X"

Other things unique to warriors are their no refresh timer 3 chain finisher (Decimate, Obliterate, and Destroy)... Since I have never leveled a paladin I am unsure of their crit... However, I can say that warriors have either #2 or #3 highest crit chance of any class in game (helped by their non-globals such as Pommel Smash and Kick *now best stance pushers*, and as far as I know 2 force crit abilities, with Cleave also being +20% crit for 10sec)... DK's have no force crit abilites and no non-global melee abilities to open crit chains (DC does raise crit chance, but also for anyone else in the encounter)

When it comes to defense - I acknowledge that warriors have the lowest block, by 1-6% depending on the group setup... However, when comparing the different defensive abilities of both tank classes, this block doesn't seem as big of an issue in terms of "inbalance"... Both the DK and Warrior 25% rune abilties are pretty much on the same playing field, correct me if you think I am wrong... The DK does have 1 invul for 10sec (10min re-use) but warriors do have a 15sec 100% block (3min re-use), which to me BoS is more useful than an invul that you have to use so sparingly. Before anyone brings up the point of DC5 damage reduction (-10%), since last I heard, the devs didn't effectively change the levels of DC. So now we may be able to debuff a mobs damage by 10% for a few sec, but DC1 does debuff -2%, DC2 -4%, DC3 -6%, and DC -8%, which they should since we sell all 5 repeatedly throughout the fight. But warriors do have 10% dmg rune to group for 10sec (unbuffed 1min re-use) and disarm is a -12% melee dmg debuff for 15sec (unbuffed 1min re-use).

I am not trying to be offensive to any warriors that think they are being imbalanced by this DK fix, adjustment, or whatever you want to call it... The point I am trying to make is, the change the DK's are recieving is a very marginal improvement (if any) before this new concept of DC resetting was implemented... And while comparing it to the abilities a warrior has, I don't think this change puts DK's either far below or high above warriors when it comes to tanking... But in all honesty, we really won't know till lvl 55 raid content.

Omegga@Seradon wrote:

The way I see it, it has become a dispute of who get what damage buffs, and who gets what defensive buffs...

I'll start with DK's since I know the most about them:

For months, the Dread Knight Shield of Fear and Dark Bastion were bugged, to where it was spiking between non-existent DC and then back to where it should be, on and off during a fight (for 5sec you would have your +18% block, the next 5sec you wouldn't, etc)... That was finally fixed, and right after that they began adding DC counters to mobs so DK defense was going backwards again.

These changes now give DK's a reliable +15% damage which was always present when testing tank hate generation/dps from constant DC5 (however, it's been a long time since thorough tank hate generation testing has been done)

Other than that, our only dmg buff is self only +100%dmg for 30sec (10min reuse - without buffs) - Excluding Symbol of Wrath which I believe now adds +90dmg to attacks (on test)

 

Warriors, seem to have their mind fixed on obtaining a +100% damage ability... Other than the paladin's offensive aura, you are the only tank with group dmg "buffs" (and Commander's Presence + Orders)... Consequently, raid mechanics allow you to be in the DPS groups, because you MAY benefit the raid the most there giving you an optimal dmg setup... Warriors have been classified as the DPS tanks, but just because you dont have a +100% dmg ability, doesn't falsify this claim...

Staying in the raid scenario:

I am unsure how easy it is for a warrior to maintain energy fully buffed, but I rarely see them run out during a raid (Since I don't play one, I am openly admitting that I could be wrong)

Abilities with no refreshes:

Power Attack V - +18% damage

Unyielding Might - +9% damage

Abilities with refreshes (unbuffed):

(2min refresh) Enrage II - +20% damage 18sec

(1min refresh) Myrmidon's Gift - self 3sec crit

(1min refresh?) Strike Now - 3 sec group crit

(1min refresh) Press Attack - group 25% melee dmg 8sec

(1min refresh) Shout of Fury - +100str for 20sec

(1min refresh) Barrage - group +20% ranged and spell dmg 8sec

These buffs alone are giving you atleast +72%dmg (depending on str from Shout of Fury) for 8sec, followed by +47%dmg for the next 10sec, and then +27%dmg from then on out (depending on energy use from Power Attack)... With raid buffs (and maybe electrified earring of speed) included I am assuming these drop to 45sec re-use or 1min30sec for Enrage... With these refresh timers, and bursts you give to groups it more than compensates for a +100% self damage ability... Warriors are the best tank when it comes to hate over time, given these abilities and their descriptions:

Cleave II: 19,038 hate over 60sec / 1000 dmg every 3sec / -30%mitigation (highest in game)

Stinging Cut V: 150%weapon dmg / 856 instant hate / 3706 hate over 16sec

Blades Bite III: 250%weapon dmg / 985 instant hate / 3784 - 3983 hate over 16sec

Savage Cut VI: 4515 hate over 60sec

Not to mention you can now macro Infuriating Shot (no global cooldown) in since bows and xbows have a range of 0-"X"

Other things unique to warriors are their no refresh timer 3 chain finisher (Decimate, Obliterate, and Destroy)... Since I have never leveled a paladin I am unsure of their crit... However, I can say that warriors have either #2 or #3 highest crit chance of any class in game (helped by their non-globals such as Pommel Smash and Kick *now best stance pushers*, and as far as I know 2 force crit abilities, with Cleave also being +20% crit for 10sec)... DK's have no force crit abilites and no non-global melee abilities to open crit chains (DC does raise crit chance, but also for anyone else in the encounter)

When it comes to defense - I acknowledge that warriors have the lowest block, by 1-6% depending on the group setup... However, when comparing the different defensive abilities of both tank classes, this block doesn't seem as big of an issue in terms of "inbalance"... Both the DK and Warrior 25% rune abilties are pretty much on the same playing field, correct me if you think I am wrong... The DK does have 1 invul for 10sec (10min re-use) but warriors do have a 15sec 100% block (3min re-use), which to me BoS is more useful than an invul that you have to use so sparingly. Before anyone brings up the point of DC5 damage reduction (-10%), since last I heard, the devs didn't effectively change the levels of DC. So now we may be able to debuff a mobs damage by 10% for a few sec, but DC1 does debuff -2%, DC2 -4%, DC3 -6%, and DC -8%, which they should since we sell all 5 repeatedly throughout the fight. But warriors do have 10% dmg rune to group for 10sec (unbuffed 1min re-use) and disarm is a -12% melee dmg debuff for 15sec (unbuffed 1min re-use).

 

I am not trying to be offensive to any warriors that think they are being imbalanced by this DK fix, adjustment, or whatever you want to call it... The point I am trying to make is, the change the DK's are recieving is a very marginal improvement (if any) before this new concept of DC resetting was implemented... And while comparing it to the abilities a warrior has, I don't think this change puts DK's either far below or high above warriors when it comes to tanking... But in all honesty, we really won't know till lvl 55 raid content.

Omegga  I have parses to SHOW YOU and Guen that 27% damage is NOT sustainable

Warriors are the dps tanks we take a back seat for you DK's to do BURN raid content which is 90% of this game since the faster a RAID can burn a mob the better the chances of the TANK surviving thus its BURN BURN BURN

Warriors took a HUGE DPS nerf to accommodate the 2 tanks in trade for what a 3 minute re use 15 second block?

Less dps in trade for LESS hate compared to Paladins and DK

We swallowed our pride long ago not being able to do solo content with good rewards coming from 5 - 6 DOT mobs that DK's can do so easily and keep misdirecting the accusation that warriors can kill faster WE DONT CARE WE WANT UR SURVIVABILITY in being able to do solo content

DK get their wish in 15% +90 sustained damage ALL THE TIME MORE DPS THAN WARRIOR in group content

Also your argument about:

"Other things unique to warriors are their no refresh timer 3 chain finisher (Decimate, Obliterate, and Destroy)."

ARE OUTDATED ASK YOUR GUILD LEADER TO TANK NON STOP without RAID BUFFS Cleric / Bear

And SEE if he parses as high as he does when he RUNS out of ENDURANCE

I also have the macro I use to hold and sustain hate against high dps classes and fast burn group content

http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/p...&topic_id=48102

I use 117 endurance NOT enough to sustain my 25% step 2 finisher and step 3 finisher chain because I AM WAITING FOR endurance even with disciple inner light I AM WAITING

NO 25% damage from Press the Attack that lasts 8 seconds for Obliterate

NO 25% damage from Press the Attack that lasts 8 seconds for Destroy

DONT Believe me believe the parses I will put up with Scotis level 52 DK from The Mafia guild we grinded alot of SOD Dogs.

a DK with15% +90 damage 18% block 900AC all the time is equal to warrior dps

WARRIOR NEED 100% DAMAGE FOR 30 SECONDS 10 MIN RE USE LIKE YOU WE WONT SETTLE FOR LESS

IF U CAN DO SAME DPS AS WARRIORS, WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO DO THE SAME RAID BOSS BURN CONTENT AS YOU WE WONT SETTLE FOR LESS

MY ARGUMENTS ARE ALL VALID

POST MY PARSES AT THE LINK I PROVIDED AND YOU SEE HOW CLOSE THE DPS SCOTIS IS TO MINE I HAD BETTER GEAR OVERALL MORE +MDR YET I COULD NOT SUSTAIN POWER ATTACK AND RAN OUT OF ENERGY ON MOST OF MY ABILITIES

POST YOUR PARSE THAT YOUR REALLY HURTING DOING GROUP CONTENT!

SAME GEAR WARRIOR, SAME GEAR DK, SAME BUFFS

I POST MINE, LESS DPS DUE TO UNSUSTAINABLE +18% DAMAGE FROM POWER ATTACK

RUNNING OUT OF ENDURANCE LOSING 25% DAMAGE FROM PRESS THE ATTACK SINCE IT LASTS 8 SECONDS MY LAST 2 STEP FINISHER CHAINS ARE GETTING NO 25% DAMAGE BENEFIT DUE TO WAITING ON ENDURANCE EVEN WITH DISCIPLE IN GROUP!

Athryn wrote:

DK get their wish in 15% +90 sustained damage ALL THE TIME MORE DPS THAN WARRIOR in group content

These things are nothing new we've ALWAYS had these and were balanced off of them

Guenievre wrote:

Sry, Athryn forgot to take his pills.

no I did not you guys get your sustained damage +15% +90dmg 5 minute duration regarless of the situation

DC5 get lowered in new zones SOD / BOD make warriors somewhat usable in those group areas

you guys did not like that so what? warrior did not like taking a backseat from tanking 90% of the raid encounter in favour for a Pally or a DK that can use 100% damage for 30 seconds so the raid can burn harder and kill the encounter faster!

now you get a sustained 15% +90dmg buff and you AVOID THE FACT THAT WARRIORS NEED 100% DAMAGE FOR 30 SECONDS TO BE ABLE TO TANK 90% OF THE RAID CONTENT WHICH IS BURN ENCOUNTERS!