Base block

- Warrior: Warder's Bulwark +14% / Weaponshield +28% = +42%

- DK: Shield of Fear +18% at DC5 /  Weaponshield +28% = +46%.  In part, previously justified as fair by (some) DKs because the block was variable from 3% at DC0 to 18% at DC5 (albeit tooltip says 3% per level of DC, so could've always been bugged, or could've been designed the way it works now)

- Paladin: Strike of Gloriann +14%  / Shield +28% versus mob +3 levels, making it effectively +34% versus same level (note: reports shield block bugged per Bylbok) = +48%

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Warriors have the worst base block.  In any group/raid, any other tank will be +4% (DK, at DC5) or +6% (paladin) block ahead of the warrior.  In any raid situation, the warrior will be the weakest tank.

As Raive said, if SOF isn't linked to DC, it should give comparable block to the warrior's Warder's Bulwark (i.e. raise WB by 4%).  Arguably both should be higher because of the shield of the paladin being vs mobs +3 lvl cap, but I'd also want Bylbok's shield issues reviewed.

Hold the Line gets cited as a reason by Guen in this thread a lot.  It's a group buff and even if only on the warrior, the warrior still has the worst block (gap to DK is +1% and to paladin is +3%).  Anyway, if the group logic applies, then paladins need a hp nerf because they can buff hp with Courage or bards need to do negative dps without their songs etc (no, I am not asking for this, just citing similarly silly analogies).

Another thing to consider with block amongst the tanks. What faf said in the post above. The goal is to balance. Ok like he said currently its 42 -46 - 48 respectively to War - DK - Pal. This is what is going on by paper. So by balance we want it to be 48-48-48. Of course the paladin being the more difficult to change as their block depends on itemization and not through weapon shield as the DK/War do. So I'm not sure if this has been considered but considering that Rare/Heroic Shields all give +24% via the level, that's 30% to the effective level granting 44%. So...ok to make this easier I'll add spaces. (Note this is at maximum potential with the acknowledgement of bugged DC resetting mobs and bugged paladin block values)

- Paladin @ Level 50: 48% (With a legendary shield)

- DK @ Level 50: 46% (At DC5)

- Paladin @ Level 50: 44% (With a heroic/rare shield)

- Warrior @ Level 50: 42% (45% with HTL but is group buff so it is shared)

So the problem we see here is that itemization is throwing this entire thing off. At maximum potentials, the warrior falls at the bottom and even if you consider HTL as a balancing mechanism, we still come only over a paladin with a heroic/rare shield. So the solution to this situation is again simple but you have numerous ways to go around it. So lets consider:

A - Raising Warrior's WB by 2% and dropping DK's by 2% and giving both classes a +4% Weapon Shield modification on higher end items so they can match the paladin with a legendary shield. So it would put us at

- Paladin @ Level 50: 48% (With legendary shield)

- Warrior/DK @ Level 50: 48% (With added WS Mod)

- Warrior/DK @ Level 50: 44% (Without WS Mod)

B - Raise Warrior's WB by 4%, leave Paladin/DK alone and leave the Paladin with a 2% advantage assuming all bugs are fixed.

The bottomline we're coming down to with this is the warrior's WB is going to have to get a bump up in some form or fashion. This is not a "plz buff me request", but for balancing purposes, it has to be done. But of course first thing's first, the whole DC resetting crap has got to go and the Paladin shield block bug needs to be fixed so we're all on even ground. Now level 55 shields with block, that's another story.

Warrior > Dk in group coz HTL (+3% parry & +3% block)
Dk > Warrior in raid and if in same group.
Warrior have a 100% block during 15sec every 2+mins (with psi/bard). This ability compensates the -4% warrior have. Even if we take in consideration the DK 10sec invuln (reuse 10mins). I know some warriro dont cast it whenever its up but some do.

Btw, we still dunno how will be the new Shield of Fear. Silius can be vicous sometimes :p
If Dk block = Warrior block then Dk invuln reuse should be 3 or 4 mins.

PS : whining for 1% block, damn

Guenievre wrote:

Warrior > Dk in group coz HTL (+3% parry & +3% block)
Dk > Warrior in raid and if in same group.
Warrior have a 100% block during 15sec every 2+mins (with psi/bard). This ability compensates the -4% warrior have. Even if we take in consideration the DK 10sec invuln (reuse 10mins). I know some warriro dont cast it whenever its up but some do.

Btw, we still dunno how will be the new Shield of Fear. Silius can be vicous sometimes :p
If Dk block = Warrior block then Dk invuln reuse should be 3 or 4 mins.

 

PS : whining for 1% block, damn

Warrior > DK if the warrior is the only tank yes :p (this is with the current setup)

Now the whole invuln arguement honestly shouldn't be taken up with the warrior, but more with the paladin. The thing about BoS is the fact its not a 100% invuln it is infact 50% due to the nature of mob abilities. Now I agree, the DK invuln should NOT be 10 minutes, that's insanely long for its short duration when you compare it to real invulns (like the Pally/Druid/Cleric). So regardless of what happens, the DK invuln should be lower than 10 minutes. But it should be longer than the warriors.

And its not whining. Its reminding them what they promised back in beta days but has yet to deliver :p. Darn wish I had my old beta posts so I can put them here. I'm arguing the same crap here that I did back then, just different people :p

It's a 4-6% block deficit for the warrrior to the other tanks.  That's huge.  It's a 10% differential on the total block.  Even if the case you like to cite - the soloing warrior where only they get the HTL benefit - it's still a 1%-3% deficit.

And btw, this isn't generally a solo game.  Group buffs are meant to do... you know... good things for the group.  Try bards, paladin auras, DC, clerics, shaman, psis, druids.... umn yeah... pretty much buffs are good for the group, aren't they?  Let's nerf all classes with buffs, following your logic, Guen.

PS Raive, that parry thing is a red herring.  Check Bylbok's own parses of it.  Kinda useless.  And again a GROUP BUFF thing.

Raive@Seradon wrote:

Warrior > DK if the warrior is the only tank yes :p (this is with the current setup)

This isn't right.  In the circumstances where there's only 1 warrior - e.g. soloing - the survivability benefits of the other tanks in terms of taps/healing/buffs etc >> warrior.  Plus if you're saying the parry lift on HTL is better than 1-3% block that warriors are being stiffed even in this minimalist case (as opposed to the real 4-6% differential for grouping and raiding), you'd better parse it.  It's a group buff anyway.... can't wait for all group abilities to be nerfed the way Guen keeps arguing this.

Oh I can tell you. The parry is crap, useless, and makes you wonder why do tanks get such a "defensive ability" tacked on and why do warrior's waste a counter on parrying (which mind you is not being used with the new endurance costs).

And again, its a group buff so the arguement for HTL is not going to work. Parry/Dodge = no. Block/Mit = everything for tanks.

Raive@Seradon wrote:

Block/Mit = everything for tanks.

Indeed.

Fafryd@Seradon wrote:

And btw, this isn't generally a solo game.  Group buffs are meant to do... you know... good things for the group.  Try bards, paladin auras, DC, clerics, shaman, psis, druids.... umn yeah... pretty much buffs are good for the group, aren't they?  Let's nerf all classes with buffs, following your logic, Guen.

I dont ask for a nerf... Just saying, the block rate is good how it is now. Ur request isnt needed. BoS is ok. Use it anytime!

Fafryd@Seradon wrote:

Raive@Seradon wrote:

Warrior > DK if the warrior is the only tank yes :p (this is with the current setup)

This isn't right.  In the circumstances where there's only 1 warrior - e.g. soloing - the survivability benefits of the other tanks in terms of taps/healing/buffs etc >> warrior.  Plus if you're saying the parry lift on HTL is better than 1-3% block that warriors are being stiffed even in this minimalist case (as opposed to the real 4-6% differential for grouping and raiding), you'd better parse it.  It's a group buff anyway.... can't wait for all group abilities to be nerfed the way Guen keeps arguing this.

If u have a healer who know his job, Dks lifetap are "useless". And dont forget, Dk lifetap = no aggro. A Dk cant keep aggro if he use lifetap. We dont have time for it, we fight to keep aggro, even with full dps gear

Dont say Dk give more than a Warrior to group. plzzz

Cleave+HTL+Commander Presence and all warriors dmg+ commands own DC coz mobs lower it. U rly need to play a Dk few days or weeks, then u'll understand

@ SIlius, Warrior dont need parry. Give it to DK plz

Fafryd@Seradon wrote:

- Paladin: Strike of Gloriann +14%  / Shield +28% versus mob +3 levels, making it effectively +34% versus same level (note: reports shield block bugged per Bylbok) = +48%

While you on it, might wanna tell me what mob drops lv58 legendary shield? Or even lv56? Atm pallys are weakest class in block for lv54+ even without block bug (which does exists and really should be counted). Its plain stupid to compare tanks to something that might happen in future - the future pally needs to face as lowest blockers from all tanks. When pallys actually have it, whine then pls.

I also find in insane that you think +3% block/parry is crap cos it affects WHOLE group instead of warrior alone, you not really group player are you? If there is MT group containing pally and warrior, identically geared and skilled facing lv59 raid mob, guess what is smartest choice by all raidleaders? Warrior tanks and pally plays in offence stance, that +10% dam & +12% accurancy he gives to warrior is much more important than few % of block. Warrior on offense stance on other hand gives nothing to pally (what he cant give in defence too). Only if there is 2 pallys and one warrior then its smart to have pally tanking - now how often that happens? After all that 2nd pally is better used in melee dps group again for dps aura now accurancy is so important. Besides you cant count to evasion as tank, its always random so while nice its not 1st priority. Maxed mitigation, maxed accurancy, as much health as possible and enought dps to keep solid aggro are what counts. If having 58 or 61% block is gonna make difference then something is seriously wrong on raid.

Azzy - Nice to see a DK questioning a paladins ability to tank.  The real raid is there to dps.  The MT is there to tank.  I feel sorry for you if you think paladins never MT because obviously they do... and arguably do it better than warriors... with better burst, better defense (if the shield works to block the way that the Devs say it does), better runes and invuls.  And hey, some paladins are dwarves.  If the content doesn't require a MT to be as good as possible, then we might as well all go naked because it was weak content anyway.  Anyway, here's the big plus - the pal, the war, the DK are all getting the group buffs from any of the archtypes or other classes.  I didn't realise that raid leaders on Seradon must be 'dumb' because paladins are great tanks.  But hey, that paladin accuracy buff is awesome now so more power to ya.

Azzy wrote:

If there is MT group containing pally and warrior, identically geared and skilled facing lv59 raid mob, guess what is smartest choice by all raidleaders?

Actually, if you 'bench' the paladin, the best answer is to have a DK tank - the highest blocking tank (ignoring itemisation on pal shields at 55, which we don't know, and assuming you want the offensive stance from the pal).  The worst tank of the 3 is the warrior, with the lowest block.  At any time when the DK is at DC4 or DC5 - with the change Sili is putting through, it sounds like it will be all the time.  BTW, that's the point of this whole conversation - All 3 of the tanks should have equal blocking and equal mit potential in raid configuration to make them interchangeable in their core role.... so buff Warder's Bulwark to match Shield of Fear

Shield itemisation is yet to be seen - good point.  If there are no +28% versus level 58 shields, then DKs are #1 (4% gap) and pal/war are #2/3 equally.  The Devs will know what is planned though, so if they're going with level 55 legendary shield being 28% versus level 55, they can take that into account, or if it is versus level 58, they can do that too.  Personally, given the debate on the shield bug, it'd appear easier to give paladins 'shielding' being a +28% block bonus when using any shield, the same way that DKs get it for 2h and warriors for dual weilding.  I never said HTL was crap, just that it's a group buff like everyone else's group buff and you don't balance on withs and withouts for group buffs.... because everyone in the group benefits.  I am, like most people, a buff junkie - take everything I can get.

So your conclusion is then that the DK is OP because it has the highest functioning block and paladins are yet to get a new legendary shield?

Guenievre wrote:

Dk have 18% block buff with DC5 UP and this isnt overpowered coz of DC resetting mobs and coz DK start each fight with only +3% block buff while Warrior & Pally start with +14%!

Fafryd@Seradon wrote:

Azzy - Nice to see a DK questioning a paladins ability to tank.  The real raid is there to dps.  The MT is there to tank.  I feel sorry for you if you think paladins never MT because obviously they do... and arguably do it better than warriors... with better burst, better defense (if the shield works to block the way that the Devs say it does), better runes and invuls.  And hey, some paladins are dwarves.  If the content doesn't require a MT to be as good as possible, then we might as well all go naked because it was weak content anyway.  Anyway, here's the big plus - the pal, the war, the DK are all getting the group buffs from the warrior anyway no matter what stance anyone in, like warriors get the paladin group buffs (or any other group buffs) and the raid gets the benefit of DC.  I didn't realise that raid leaders on Seradon must be 'dumb' because paladins are great tanks.  But hey, that paladin accuracy buff is awesome now.

I'm not saying pallys are bad tanks, far from that - imo they were best tanks before PoA patch and will be best or at least close that again once they get lv58 legendary shields (this might never happen thou if devs decide lv55-56 is enought). But point is NOBODY gets pally group accurancy/dps buff if pally is tanking - pally must be in offense stance for that. Meanwhile everyone gets warrior buffs no matter what stance/role he is. So MT group with pally in offence and warrior in defence (and tanking) is more effective than same group with pally tanking (so not only all in group loose +12% accurancy & damange but most importantly MT looses it - of course MT is not there to dps, he's there to keep aggro and that requires dps and more importanly it requires realiability so 100% accurancy is must). 2 out of 3 (1 mins & 2 min refreshes) pally shields can be used to others, only one rarely used (cos it costs 6 virtue and has 10 min refresh) shield is self only. And while not tanking, pally has more time to pay attention to shielding mt too.

So unless raid really can afford to put 2 pallys in main tank group along warrior, its better to warrior to tank even if he has less evasion simply cos pally in dps aura is so much more benefitical than warrior in that role. In other words, pally might be better for tank but warrior tanks more cos pally is much better for dps. Nerf pally dps aura and avot, pallys end tanking more.  And finally DK is crappiest of all out of 3 in dps stance, so if MT group includes all 3, then DK is most likely best choice for tank - IF mob dont silence/drain mana/heal by physical or spiritual or have high magic resistance. This is huge if really. DK that cant use spells is worst tank out of 3, hands down.

ps. I play in Halgar

pps. What dworfs have to do with anything? Pretty darn sure I seen few dworf warriors out there too if you pointing to their overpowered stats and racial. Intresting question could be will only dworfs be allowed to main tank? At least DKs cant be dworfs, so If you think DKs are best tank now, they surely get big hit in that department.

Azzy wrote:

Fafryd@Seradon wrote:

- Paladin: Strike of Gloriann +14%  / Shield +28% versus mob +3 levels, making it effectively +34% versus same level (note: reports shield block bugged per Bylbok) = +48%

While you on it, might wanna tell me what mob drops lv58 legendary shield? Or even lv56? Atm pallys are weakest class in block for lv54+ even without block bug (which does exists and really should be counted). Its plain stupid to compare tanks to something that might happen in future - the future pally needs to face as lowest blockers from all tanks. When pallys actually have it, whine then pls.

I also find in insane that you think +3% block/parry is crap cos it affects WHOLE group instead of warrior alone, you not really group player are you? If there is MT group containing pally and warrior, identically geared and skilled facing lv59 raid mob, guess what is smartest choice by all raidleaders? Warrior tanks and pally plays in offence stance, that +10% dam & +12% accurancy he gives to warrior is much more important than few % of block. Warrior on offense stance on other hand gives nothing to pally (what he cant give in defence too). Only if there is 2 pallys and one warrior then its smart to have pally tanking - now how often that happens? After all that 2nd pally is better used in melee dps group again for dps aura now accurancy is so important. Besides you cant count to evasion as tank, its always random so while nice its not 1st priority. Maxed mitigation, maxed accurancy, as much health as possible and enought dps to keep solid aggro are what counts. If having 58 or 61% block is gonna make difference then something is seriously wrong on raid.

Even if we're talking a level 59 raid mob. A smart raid leader would have all his tanks have get some +accuracy gear before stepping up to the plate. And even with the conditions, paladin damage burst > warrior streamline. Warrior's burst damage is just a combination of everything we have + with Power Attack on, you can't keep doing it.

No one said HTL is crap, what we are saying if you're saying it gives warriors an edge then its wrong because it effects a group and just slap a DK/Paladin in the same group and they get the same benefits. I don't see SoF helping me out at all. For the longest time, best way to roll is Paladin MT with the warrior in group as secondary with HTL up.

Burst damage sets the tempo for hate generation, this is the only reason why paladins/DKs can hold agro in the first place. Take their 100% damage buffs and warriors will take the cake, but realistically, no.

I'm a paladin and I got a shield from the pantheon.  It's a heroic, so 24% against a level 54.  If the tooltip is to be believed, my 28% vs 53 blocks for 3% more than my 24% against 54.  If there are shields that are going to be 28% vs 58, it'll probably be the epic and probably the epic only. 

The best solution I can see, though, is to completely scrap the %block vs whatever level and include a % block in guardian's might.  It would also mean that you would have to give clerics and shaman a innate buff that also increases block to compensate.  Then, and only then, could you really make all tank classes equal in block.  The % block on shields was a nice idea but doesn't work properly.  I'm sure this problem also exists with parry, but nobody depends on parry for their lives so it's never noted.

And dwarves racial stats are overpowered?  I could have sworn they're +str and +con, right?  I cap both as a thestran human, I see no distinct advantage there, unless you're still getting geared out.  The racial being OP'd is arguable.  I like mine because it adds 2% damage, 2% mit, or 3% mana efficiency to my group.  I just wish it was general mitigation instead of melee mitigation to give more of a benefit to my group.