If you think a base is an act of hostility, and that we initiated the war near the beginning of the Truce, then maybe you ought to consider who was overwritten and for what purpose at about the same time. Then consider the kill differential between that particular group and the protective devices of New Zion.

The Cyphs were created to ensure that Zion was acting within the details of the truce by not awakening more than the allotted 1% and wasn't it Veil that gave them the more aggresive edge?

We built the city of New Zion for situations such as this - in case the Machines were to attack us, we might have a safe haven. If you might recall, the city was sparsely populated at the time of the termination of the Truce, and the children of Zion were still living in the mother city.

Your own self fulfilling Prophecy

Is it? We had no say in the matter of whether or not the strike would come. That was their choice, not ours. We were just prepared.

I think so. Can you say for certain that the Machines would have attacked Zion if you hadn't built the new city?

 

So you were going to overthrow your own civilian and Military leaders?

 

You'd better believe I would have. I'd be willing to bet that most freeborns would have, too. Putting them at risk of war for nothing? That's a grave offense. But the fact of the matter remains that we didn't break the Truce. At least not by any means we were to understand.

Internal Zion Politics are, of course, something I'm not privvy to...

I cannot deny the fear of the Machines, but without fear Mankind would not have decided to build the new city right after the beginning of the truce. The Machines do not fear war, they fear being wiped out as any race would. If they did not value humankind the Machinists wouldn't be.

They're going to be "wiped out" by a bunch of humans in an inaccesible bunker? Pardon me if I find the notion laughable. As for valuation of humankind? They deny the option of extraction altogether now. I maintain that they're using you folks, and if it ever gets the point that we're all wiped out and you've outlived your usefulness, you'd better pray I'm wrong.

Whilst you are inside that 'bunker' (is that finally the acceptance to what it is... very warlike....) I don't believe you are any threat to The Machines or the Simulation... it's your activities outside which presents the issue. As for the issue of Machinists outliving our usefulness... that'll probably happen long after I expire, in any way I'l keep Gray at his word, that our future is not dependant on Zion's

 

Right, we're carrying out operations to restore protocols which were perfectly legal during peacetime. Pardon me once more if I find your notion that these operations are "aggressive" in any manner laughable. As for our combatting Agents and Machine Programs? They're enforcing the Machine edict, of course we're going to fight them. Combat is to be expected among opposing parties during war, and is to be discouraged during a time of peace. That's just a flip of a switch there, as far as programs are concerned.

Perfectly legal privileges that were given to you by the Machines and then taken away. They are aggressive in the form that you are trying to take back the privileges without permission from those in control of the system.

Who is the trusted, and who is the untrusted? You're only looking at it from their angle. Maybe they should've done more to increase our waning trust. After all, we were the party that had been duped by the Matrix and the recursive cycle of the One. We were the party that faced the threat of elimination in this war and wars past. But what they did was found a murderous organization known as the Cypherites and demand access to our mainframe. Surely they couldn't have thought asking for such access would increase our trust?

Sometimes to gain trust one must show trust. Both sides are as stubborn as each other. However the request for access was made and in return, the offer of the Machine's increased data processing capability. This was to root out or flag any unstable Characters. This would benefit both Zion and Machines...

 

(2) This runs back into the logic of all mankind being damned by original sin. Unless you're going to throw around Anome. But it has been my experience that "history" is talking about the very first war. Again, it makes the case that there could never have been a true peace, and that war was inevitable.

No, this runs back through Mankinds entire history, not just the Man-Machine war. Mankind has shown violent tendancies throughout it's history towards itself and others.

Either way, you're saying there's no hope.

There is always hope..... Mankind has the ability to evolve... unfortunately it takes time or something quite significant to do it.

No, this runs back through Mankinds entire history, not just the Man-Machine war. Mankind has shown violent tendancies throughout it's history towards itself and others.

Either way, you're saying there's no hope.

There is always hope..... Mankind has the ability to evolve... unfortunately it takes time or something quite significant to do it.

It doesn't mean there's no hope...it just means we're aware of the problems of our past, and we understand that we need to work to overcome them. 

Illyria

There is always hope though there are not always many who believe in it.

If you think a base is an act of hostility, and that we initiated the war near the beginning of the Truce, then maybe you ought to consider who was overwritten and for what purpose at about the same time. Then consider the kill differential between that particular group and the protective devices of New Zion.

The Cyphs were created to ensure that Zion was acting within the details of the truce by not awakening more than the allotted 1% and wasn't it Veil that gave them the more aggresive edge?

Acting to enforce the Machine side of the Truce, right? What do you think New Zion was designed to do? I'm not asking for connotations here, I'm not asking what people might have done with what it provides. I'm asking for what it actually, physically does.

We built the city of New Zion for situations such as this - in case the Machines were to attack us, we might have a safe haven. If you might recall, the city was sparsely populated at the time of the termination of the Truce, and the children of Zion were still living in the mother city.

Your own self fulfilling Prophecy

Is it? We had no say in the matter of whether or not the strike would come. That was their choice, not ours. We were just prepared.

I think so. Can you say for certain that the Machines would have attacked Zion if you hadn't built the new city?

Can the Machines say for certain that we would have gone beyond the 1% if they hadn't declared war? There was more evidence (the Machine bulidup near the city of Zion) that they would attack Zion than there was evidence that we would attempt to circumvent the agreement of the Truce.

 

So you were going to overthrow your own civilian and Military leaders?

 

You'd better believe I would have. I'd be willing to bet that most freeborns would have, too. Putting them at risk of war for nothing? That's a grave offense. But the fact of the matter remains that we didn't break the Truce. At least not by any means we were to understand.

Internal Zion Politics are, of course, something I'm not privvy to...

I cannot deny the fear of the Machines, but without fear Mankind would not have decided to build the new city right after the beginning of the truce. The Machines do not fear war, they fear being wiped out as any race would. If they did not value humankind the Machinists wouldn't be.

They're going to be "wiped out" by a bunch of humans in an inaccesible bunker? Pardon me if I find the notion laughable. As for valuation of humankind? They deny the option of extraction altogether now. I maintain that they're using you folks, and if it ever gets the point that we're all wiped out and you've outlived your usefulness, you'd better pray I'm wrong.

Whilst you are inside that 'bunker' (is that finally the acceptance to what it is... very warlike....) I don't believe you are any threat to The Machines or the Simulation... it's your activities outside which presents the issue. As for the issue of Machinists outliving our usefulness... that'll probably happen long after I expire, in any way I'l keep Gray at his word, that our future is not dependant on Zion's

I'm submitting to your terminology for the sake of my argument. If it's a bunker, it doesn't have any mobile capability, and does not have any attack capability, thus rendering the Machine definition of it as an offensive weapon completely false. And, if you admit that we are not a threat, then why the war? All of the activities we are undergoing were made illegal or necessary to restore normally legal activies due to the war. Without the war, which you have proven to be frivelous by your own logic, there is no cause for all of the activities you now justify the war by. Thus you have reached the conclusion that the war is unjust and unnecessary on your own.

 

Right, we're carrying out operations to restore protocols which were perfectly legal during peacetime. Pardon me once more if I find your notion that these operations are "aggressive" in any manner laughable. As for our combatting Agents and Machine Programs? They're enforcing the Machine edict, of course we're going to fight them. Combat is to be expected among opposing parties during war, and is to be discouraged during a time of peace. That's just a flip of a switch there, as far as programs are concerned.

Perfectly legal privileges that were given to you by the Machines and then taken away. They are aggressive in the form that you are trying to take back the privileges without permission from those in control of the system.

Again, taken away why? For reasons you have proven to be unjust and unfounded.

Who is the trusted, and who is the untrusted? You're only looking at it from their angle. Maybe they should've done more to increase our waning trust. After all, we were the party that had been duped by the Matrix and the recursive cycle of the One. We were the party that faced the threat of elimination in this war and wars past. But what they did was found a murderous organization known as the Cypherites and demand access to our mainframe. Surely they couldn't have thought asking for such access would increase our trust?

Sometimes to gain trust one must show trust. Both sides are as stubborn as each other. However the request for access was made and in return, the offer of the Machine's increased data processing capability. This was to root out or flag any unstable Characters. This would benefit both Zion and Machines...

But they knew we did not trust them, or their motives. Why not ask for this data at a more critical moment? Why now? Why after a radical Zionite had taken actions against them, likely decreasing their trust towards us? And there is the answer. Their motive was a lack of trust - they did not believe we could sort our own affairs. And why should a lack of trust lead to a trusting action? The answer is that it does not, and it leads to quite the opposite, as was shown.

 

(2) This runs back into the logic of all mankind being damned by original sin. Unless you're going to throw around Anome. But it has been my experience that "history" is talking about the very first war. Again, it makes the case that there could never have been a true peace, and that war was inevitable.

No, this runs back through Mankinds entire history, not just the Man-Machine war. Mankind has shown violent tendancies throughout it's history towards itself and others.

Either way, you're saying there's no hope.

There is always hope..... Mankind has the ability to evolve... unfortunately it takes time or something quite significant to do it.

((Forum quote trees went a bit funny.... >.< ))

Oh, I quite believe that there is always hope. However, by the logic that you and Procurator have used, in the eyes of the Machine, humankind will never have hope for redemption. They will always be pock marked by the sins of another race, and exhibit "violent tendencies" which have been branded a part of nature and carry a perceived permenance. Where's the hope there? If we are all branded sinners at birth, and are condemend without hope of redemption, how may we find it?

We don't have the time to "evolve." We have the time to live, and the time to rebel against this caste system. We've got until we die, or until they change their minds - whichever comes first. Given this war and your logic, I'm not putting my money on the latter.

The Cyphs were created to ensure that Zion was acting within the details of the truce by not awakening more than the allotted 1% and wasn't it Veil that gave them the more aggressive edge?

Acting to enforce the Machine side of the Truce, right? What do you think New Zion was designed to do? I'm not asking for connotations here, I'm not asking what people might have done with what it provides. I'm asking for what it actually, physically does.

Ok, what does it do.... It prevents Machine retaliation to any aggressive act you may or may not attempt. It allows for Zion hovercraft to be launched from for any planned operation, including accessing the simulation which is now prohibited to you, and return to without reprisal.


Can you say for certain that the Machines would have attacked Zion if you hadn't built the new city?

Can the Machines say for certain that we would have gone beyond the 1% if they hadn't declared war? There was more evidence (the Machine bulidup near the city of Zion) that they would attack Zion than there was evidence that we would attempt to circumvent the agreement of the Truce.

I take it from your lack of answer to my question that you can't. What I will say is that the Cyphs were created to ensure compliance. However, remember that the Cyphs, regardless of who created organised, were and still are Human. The aggressiveness came from Veil, not the overwritten Cryptos.

Whilst you are inside that 'bunker' (is that finally the acceptance to what it is... very warlike....) I don't believe you are any threat to The Machines or the Simulation... it's your activities outside which presents the issue. As for the issue of Machinists outliving our usefulness... that'll probably happen long after I expire, in any way I'l keep Gray at his word, that our future is not dependant on Zion's

I'm submitting to your terminology for the sake of my argument. If it's a bunker, it doesn't have any mobile capability, and does not have any attack capability, thus rendering the Machine definition of it as an offensive weapon completely false. And, if you admit that we are not a threat, then why the war? All of the activities we are undergoing were made illegal or necessary to restore normally legal activies due to the war. Without the war, which you have proven to be frivelous by your own logic, there is no cause for all of the activities you now justify the war by. Thus you have reached the conclusion that the war is unjust and unnecessary on your own.

I've never claimed that it had mobile capability, it does have attack capability, it can attack Machine units that close in on it. Those weapons... defensive to you are offensive to the Machines. In any case the Machines didn't call it an offensive weapon, but it is a place of safety from which attacks via weapons platforms (i.e. hovercraft) can be mounted and return to with no fear of reprisal. Therefore it is a threat. I can see why you keep denying this basic fact, if you admit it then you would have admitted that the war is completely just and necessary.

 

Right, we're carrying out operations to restore protocols which were perfectly legal during peacetime. Pardon me once more if I find your notion that these operations are "aggressive" in any manner laughable. As for our combatting Agents and Machine Programs? They're enforcing the Machine edict, of course we're going to fight them. Combat is to be expected among opposing parties during war, and is to be discouraged during a time of peace. That's just a flip of a switch there, as far as programs are concerned.

Perfectly legal privileges that were given to you by the Machines and then taken away. They are aggressive in the form that you are trying to take back the privileges without permission from those in control of the system.

Again, taken away why? For reasons you have proven to be unjust and unfounded.

Taken away from you due to your blatant and obvious violation of the truce as I have already mentioned thus proving that the reasons are just and founded.

But they knew we did not trust them, or their motives. Why not ask for this data at a more critical moment? Why now? Why after a radical Zionite had taken actions against them, likely decreasing their trust towards us? And there is the answer. Their motive was a lack of trust - they did not believe we could sort our own affairs. And why should a lack of trust lead to a trusting action? The answer is that it does not, and it leads to quite the opposite, as was shown.

But you didn't sort out your own affairs.... it took the Machines to sort it out then offer their hand in objective, mutual benefit to both parties. Again to trust someone there has to be a first step made... and the Machine's offer allowed you to take the step.... but your own distrust ruined any chance of that.

Oh, I quite believe that there is always hope. However, by the logic that you and Procurator have used, in the eyes of the Machine, humankind will never have hope for redemption. They will always be pock marked by the sins of another race, and exhibit "violent tendencies" which have been branded a part of nature and carry a perceived permenance. Where's the hope there? If we are all branded sinners at birth, and are condemend without hope of redemption, how may we find it?

We don't have the time to "evolve." We have the time to live, and the time to rebel against this caste system. We've got until we die, or until they change their minds - whichever comes first. Given this war and your logic, I'm not putting my money on the latter.

Do you have any idea what Machinists are trying to do? We are trying to prove to the Machines that Mankind can change. Mankind can evolve but that doesn't mean that we can't try to show the Machines that, regardless of Human Nature, Humans can be cooperative, peaceful and unprejudiced before then. All of our work is placed in jeopardy because of your 'rebelling' against the system. It is you and yours who are drawing out the war for everyone, Machines, Redpills and Bluepills....

The Cyphs were created to ensure that Zion was acting within the details of the truce by not awakening more than the allotted 1% and wasn't it Veil that gave them the more aggressive edge?

Acting to enforce the Machine side of the Truce, right? What do you think New Zion was designed to do? I'm not asking for connotations here, I'm not asking what people might have done with what it provides. I'm asking for what it actually, physically does.

Ok, what does it do.... It prevents Machine retaliation to any aggressive act you may or may not attempt. It allows for Zion hovercraft to be launched from for any planned operation, including accessing the simulation which is now prohibited to you, and return to without reprisal.

This is connotation, exactly what I did not ask for. This is your belief about the reasoning behind the EMP defenses of New Zion, this is not the function of an EMP. What does an EMP do? It deactivates Mechanical equipment. What does a static, but perpetual EMP do? It deactivates anything mechanical that comes near it.

If the Machines can see need to launch overtly aggressive and subversive operations against Zion operatives in order to "protect" the agreement limiting Zion to one percent, and it is considered by you to be perfectly legal within the bounds of the Truce, then why is a covert defensive EMP shield designed by Zion to protect the part of the Truce keeping the Machines from attacking us a dismissal of it?

Either way, it's enforcing the Truce by taking it into your own hands, and I submit that if you are to defend the Machines actions in creating the Cypherites, then you must defend the actions of Zion creating New Zion, or be a hypocrit.

Can you say for certain that the Machines would have attacked Zion if you hadn't built the new city?

Can the Machines say for certain that we would have gone beyond the 1% if they hadn't declared war? There was more evidence (the Machine bulidup near the city of Zion) that they would attack Zion than there was evidence that we would attempt to circumvent the agreement of the Truce.

I take it from your lack of answer to my question that you can't. What I will say is that the Cyphs were created to ensure compliance. However, remember that the Cyphs, regardless of who created organised, were and still are Human. The aggressiveness came from Veil, not the overwritten Cryptos.

Given the fact that they declared war and destroyed Zion within as short a timeframe as they did, I'd postulate that it was premeditated. Can I say for certain? No, of course not. But it's quite more than likely, especially with the half a million sentinels that had been camped right outside the city for more than a year.

Can you prove that we would've gone beyond the limits of the Truce simply because we were living in a new city? I've already told you that I would have rebelled against the administration along with many others had they submitted to such a policy, and we had already disowned EPN on the grounds that they had been exacting this policy - I'd say that's pretty good evidence that we meant to remain within the boundaries of the Truce concerning awakenings. But you, and they, don't care, do you? You place such an emphasis on our history - perhaps they should have reviewed that part about the public reaction to the Vietnam War.

As for Cypherites - if the Machines created them and oversaw them, don't you think they should have exerted some sort of control over their techniques and activities if they saw them as too extreme? But they didn't. They didn't care that they killed our operatives. They endorsed it, and continued to endorse it during the Truce, after the cat was out of the bag, as Veil lead the Cypherites. Oh, they hoped Cryptos might come back, but they were willing enough to continue on with Veil.

Whilst you are inside that 'bunker' (is that finally the acceptance to what it is... very warlike....) I don't believe you are any threat to The Machines or the Simulation... it's your activities outside which presents the issue. As for the issue of Machinists outliving our usefulness... that'll probably happen long after I expire, in any way I'l keep Gray at his word, that our future is not dependant on Zion's

I'm submitting to your terminology for the sake of my argument. If it's a bunker, it doesn't have any mobile capability, and does not have any attack capability, thus rendering the Machine definition of it as an offensive weapon completely false. And, if you admit that we are not a threat, then why the war? All of the activities we are undergoing were made illegal or necessary to restore normally legal activies due to the war. Without the war, which you have proven to be frivelous by your own logic, there is no cause for all of the activities you now justify the war by. Thus you have reached the conclusion that the war is unjust and unnecessary on your own.

I've never claimed that it had mobile capability, it does have attack capability, it can attack Machine units that close in on it. Those weapons... defensive to you are offensive to the Machines. In any case the Machines didn't call it an offensive weapon, but it is a place of safety from which attacks via weapons platforms (i.e. hovercraft) can be mounted and return to with no fear of reprisal. Therefore it is a threat. I can see why you keep denying this basic fact, if you admit it then you would have admitted that the war is completely just and necessary.

You're just going back on your word here. You said above that you saw that nothing within New Zion could be considered a threat, and only now you contradict yourself to say that we could launch some sort of attacks from hovercraft within the city. And the Machines have quite called it a weapon. What do you think "disarm" means? We've already come to the conclusion that they must have been talking about the city - since when has anything considered "defensive" been called a weapon? If you've got a shield, it's a shield, if you've got an armor, it's armor, if you've got a gun, it's a weapon. They consider it a weapon, though I insist that it is quite purely defensive. You even agreed with me above when you acknowledge New Zion as a bunker. A bunker is by no means an offensive structure, now, is it? Unless it suddenly, by means of a changing definition has become one according to you.

There is absolutely nothing just or necessary about this war. I didn't even need to prove that - you did it for me when you said that nothing within New Zion was a threat. You can attempt to go back on it all you'd like, but I read your words quite clearly.

 

Right, we're carrying out operations to restore protocols which were perfectly legal during peacetime. Pardon me once more if I find your notion that these operations are "aggressive" in any manner laughable. As for our combatting Agents and Machine Programs? They're enforcing the Machine edict, of course we're going to fight them. Combat is to be expected among opposing parties during war, and is to be discouraged during a time of peace. That's just a flip of a switch there, as far as programs are concerned.

Perfectly legal privileges that were given to you by the Machines and then taken away. They are aggressive in the form that you are trying to take back the privileges without permission from those in control of the system.

Again, taken away why? For reasons you have proven to be unjust and unfounded.

Taken away from you due to your blatant and obvious violation of the truce as I have already mentioned thus proving that the reasons are just and founded.

You contradicted yourself. There's a difference. Either way, you've proven that these demonized operations are irrelevant to your argument, and hard to classify as "aggressive" being that they are only trying to re-establish things common during Trucetime. If it's something you could use while there's peace, why would it be considered hostile, anyhow? That simply doesn't make sense.

But they knew we did not trust them, or their motives. Why not ask for this data at a more critical moment? Why now? Why after a radical Zionite had taken actions against them, likely decreasing their trust towards us? And there is the answer. Their motive was a lack of trust - they did not believe we could sort our own affairs. And why should a lack of trust lead to a trusting action? The answer is that it does not, and it leads to quite the opposite, as was shown.

But you didn't sort out your own affairs.... it took the Machines to sort it out then offer their hand in objective, mutual benefit to both parties. Again to trust someone there has to be a first step made... and the Machine's offer allowed you to take the step.... but your own distrust ruined any chance of that.

Let me spell it out for you. We don't like other people poking into our business. Had we turned over that information, the Machines would have been in control. We don't want them to be in control. We want to be in control of our own matters. The Machines have proven that they are control freaks and to give them that much information would have been problematic.

Oh, I quite believe that there is always hope. However, by the logic that you and Procurator have used, in the eyes of the Machine, humankind will never have hope for redemption. They will always be pock marked by the sins of another race, and exhibit "violent tendencies" which have been branded a part of nature and carry a perceived permenance. Where's the hope there? If we are all branded sinners at birth, and are condemend without hope of redemption, how may we find it?

We don't have the time to "evolve." We have the time to live, and the time to rebel against this caste system. We've got until we die, or until they change their minds - whichever comes first. Given this war and your logic, I'm not putting my money on the latter.

Do you have any idea what Machinists are trying to do? We are trying to prove to the Machines that Mankind can change. Mankind can evolve but that doesn't mean that we can't try to show the Machines that, regardless of Human Nature, Humans can be cooperative, peaceful and unprejudiced before then. All of our work is placed in jeopardy because of your 'rebelling' against the system. It is you and yours who are drawing out the war for everyone, Machines, Redpills and Bluepills....

What change? You're not progressing, you're regressing. You've gone back to submitting your entire lives to their control, to give into the caste system. You're not working towards equality, you're taking orders and willingly acknowledging yourselves as inferior.

But pardon me for not laying down and dying to end the war. Pardon me for believing in progress. Pardon me for believing we should have rights. Pardon me for believing we should have freedom. Pardon me for believing we should be the autonomous beings we were created as. Pardon me for believing we should have true peace.

This never was a war. It always has been and always will be a redpill genocide.

The Cyphs were created to ensure that Zion was acting within the details of the truce by not awakening more than the allotted 1% and wasn't it Veil that gave them the more aggressive edge?

Acting to enforce the Machine side of the Truce, right? What do you think New Zion was designed to do? I'm not asking for connotations here, I'm not asking what people might have done with what it provides. I'm asking for what it actually, physically does.

Ok, what does it do.... It prevents Machine retaliation to any aggressive act you may or may not attempt. It allows for Zion hovercraft to be launched from for any planned operation, including accessing the simulation which is now prohibited to you, and return to without reprisal.

This is connotation, exactly what I did not ask for. This is your belief about the reasoning behind the EMP defenses of New Zion, this is not the function of an EMP. What does an EMP do? It deactivates Mechanical equipment. What does a static, but perpetual EMP do? It deactivates anything mechanical that comes near it.

If the Machines can see need to launch overtly aggressive and subversive operations against Zion operatives in order to "protect" the agreement limiting Zion to one percent, and it is considered by you to be perfectly legal within the bounds of the Truce, then why is a covert defensive EMP shield designed by Zion to protect the part of the Truce keeping the Machines from attacking us a dismissal of it?

Either way, it's enforcing the Truce by taking it into your own hands, and I submit that if you are to defend the Machines actions in creating the Cypherites, then you must defend the actions of Zion creating New Zion, or be a hypocrit.

The Machines had every right to protect the agreement hammered out between the two Sides. They were ensuring that you stayed within the limits of the agreement. It's laughable for you to say that you are protecting a part of a truce with the EMP's. There is no truce if both sides do not agree on it. The violation committed by building covertly a base which has the capability of doing all the things I have previously mentioned rendered it obsolete. The EMP's do not apply to any part of the truce. In which section did it say that Zion can awaken 1% of Bluepills who reject the simulation and by doing this they can build a wall of EMP's to protect a fortified base.... You cannot enforce a truce if one does not exist any more and it does not exist any more because Zion knowingly broke it, why else was it constructed in secret?

Can you say for certain that the Machines would have attacked Zion if you hadn't built the new city?

Can the Machines say for certain that we would have gone beyond the 1% if they hadn't declared war? There was more evidence (the Machine bulidup near the city of Zion) that they would attack Zion than there was evidence that we would attempt to circumvent the agreement of the Truce.

I take it from your lack of answer to my question that you can't. What I will say is that the Cyphs were created to ensure compliance. However, remember that the Cyphs, regardless of who created organised, were and still are Human. The aggressiveness came from Veil, not the overwritten Cryptos.

Given the fact that they declared war and destroyed Zion within as short a timeframe as they did, I'd postulate that it was premeditated. Can I say for certain? No, of course not. But it's quite more than likely, especially with the half a million sentinels that had been camped right outside the city for more than a year.

Can you prove that we would've gone beyond the limits of the Truce simply because we were living in a new city? I've already told you that I would have rebelled against the administration along with many others had they submitted to such a policy, and we had already disowned EPN on the grounds that they had been exacting this policy - I'd say that's pretty good evidence that we meant to remain within the boundaries of the Truce concerning awakenings. But you, and they, don't care, do you? You place such an emphasis on our history - perhaps they should have reviewed that part about the public reaction to the Vietnam War.

As for Cypherites - if the Machines created them and oversaw them, don't you think they should have exerted some sort of control over their techniques and activities if they saw them as too extreme? But they didn't. They didn't care that they killed our operatives. They endorsed it, and continued to endorse it during the Truce, after the cat was out of the bag, as Veil lead the Cypherites. Oh, they hoped Cryptos might come back, but they were willing enough to continue on with Veil.

Outside for over a year, and didn't attack when their forces were strongest.... yet New Zion was completed as soon as the Machines lost huge numbers in the battle against the General. Coincidence....

But I cannot prove what you are asking me and you cannot prove what I was asking you it seems that while we a posturing here the war is continuing....

Whilst you are inside that 'bunker' (is that finally the acceptance to what it is... very warlike....) I don't believe you are any threat to The Machines or the Simulation... it's your activities outside which presents the issue. As for the issue of Machinists outliving our usefulness... that'll probably happen long after I expire, in any way I'l keep Gray at his word, that our future is not dependant on Zion's

I'm submitting to your terminology for the sake of my argument. If it's a bunker, it doesn't have any mobile capability, and does not have any attack capability, thus rendering the Machine definition of it as an offensive weapon completely false. And, if you admit that we are not a threat, then why the war? All of the activities we are undergoing were made illegal or necessary to restore normally legal activies due to the war. Without the war, which you have proven to be frivelous by your own logic, there is no cause for all of the activities you now justify the war by. Thus you have reached the conclusion that the war is unjust and unnecessary on your own.

I've never claimed that it had mobile capability, it does have attack capability, it can attack Machine units that close in on it. Those weapons... defensive to you are offensive to the Machines. In any case the Machines didn't call it an offensive weapon, but it is a place of safety from which attacks via weapons platforms (i.e. hovercraft) can be mounted and return to with no fear of reprisal. Therefore it is a threat. I can see why you keep denying this basic fact, if you admit it then you would have admitted that the war is completely just and necessary.

You're just going back on your word here. You said above that you saw that nothing within New Zion could be considered a threat, and only now you contradict yourself to say that we could launch some sort of attacks from hovercraft within the city. And the Machines have quite called it a weapon. What do you think "disarm" means? We've already come to the conclusion that they must have been talking about the city - since when has anything considered "defensive" been called a weapon? If you've got a shield, it's a shield, if you've got an armor, it's armor, if you've got a gun, it's a weapon. They consider it a weapon, though I insist that it is quite purely defensive. You even agreed with me above when you acknowledge New Zion as a bunker. A bunker is by no means an offensive structure, now, is it? Unless it suddenly, by means of a changing definition has become one according to you.

There is absolutely nothing just or necessary about this war. I didn't even need to prove that - you did it for me when you said that nothing within New Zion was a threat. You can attempt to go back on it all you'd like, but I read your words quite clearly.

Obviously not very well. My main point being that inside new Zion, nothing is a threat, but the EMP's are located on the outside, and Hovercraft leave New Zion. If everything and everyone in New Zion stayed inside... I, personally can't see a problem.... but in order to access the Simulation you have to be outside New Zion. as I said, it is your activities outside New Zion and the ability for it to harbour hovercraft that can or have committed illegal activities that causes concern.

 

Right, we're carrying out operations to restore protocols which were perfectly legal during peacetime. Pardon me once more if I find your notion that these operations are "aggressive" in any manner laughable. As for our combatting Agents and Machine Programs? They're enforcing the Machine edict, of course we're going to fight them. Combat is to be expected among opposing parties during war, and is to be discouraged during a time of peace. That's just a flip of a switch there, as far as programs are concerned.

Perfectly legal privileges that were given to you by the Machines and then taken away. They are aggressive in the form that you are trying to take back the privileges without permission from those in control of the system.

Again, taken away why? For reasons you have proven to be unjust and unfounded.

Taken away from you due to your blatant and obvious violation of the truce as I have already mentioned thus proving that the reasons are just and founded.

You contradicted yourself. There's a difference. Either way, you've proven that these demonized operations are irrelevant to your argument, and hard to classify as "aggressive" being that they are only trying to re-establish things common during Trucetime. If it's something you could use while there's peace, why would it be considered hostile, anyhow? That simply doesn't make sense.

The actions you are undertaking to regain the privileges you have lost and are now illegal for you are aggressive counteractions to law set out by the Machines in their territory. Its that simple. How can I make it simpler. Old Earth, two countries enjoying cooperation, allowing citizens to travel through one another. If they go to war and they close their borders, citizens wont still travel through suggesting that if it was legal in peace time... why isn't it now.....

But they knew we did not trust them, or their motives. Why not ask for this data at a more critical moment? Why now? Why after a radical Zionite had taken actions against them, likely decreasing their trust towards us? And there is the answer. Their motive was a lack of trust - they did not believe we could sort our own affairs. And why should a lack of trust lead to a trusting action? The answer is that it does not, and it leads to quite the opposite, as was shown.

But you didn't sort out your own affairs.... it took the Machines to sort it out then offer their hand in objective, mutual benefit to both parties. Again to trust someone there has to be a first step made... and the Machine's offer allowed you to take the step.... but your own distrust ruined any chance of that.

Let me spell it out for you. We don't like other people poking into our business. Had we turned over that information, the Machines would have been in control. We don't want them to be in control. We want to be in control of our own matters. The Machines have proven that they are control freaks and to give them that much information would have been problematic.

Well keep your business away from impacting on the simulation and there will be no cause for them to poke into it.... The simulation and the bluepills are their business... yet you continue to poke your noses into it.... live and let live....?

Oh, I quite believe that there is always hope. However, by the logic that you and Procurator have used, in the eyes of the Machine, humankind will never have hope for redemption. They will always be pock marked by the sins of another race, and exhibit "violent tendencies" which have been branded a part of nature and carry a perceived permenance. Where's the hope there? If we are all branded sinners at birth, and are condemend without hope of redemption, how may we find it?

We don't have the time to "evolve." We have the time to live, and the time to rebel against this caste system. We've got until we die, or until they change their minds - whichever comes first. Given this war and your logic, I'm not putting my money on the latter.

Do you have any idea what Machinists are trying to do? We are trying to prove to the Machines that Mankind can change. Mankind can evolve but that doesn't mean that we can't try to show the Machines that, regardless of Human Nature, Humans can be cooperative, peaceful and unprejudiced before then. All of our work is placed in jeopardy because of your 'rebelling' against the system. It is you and yours who are drawing out the war for everyone, Machines, Redpills and Bluepills....

What change? You're not progressing, you're regressing. You've gone back to submitting your entire lives to their control, to give into the caste system. You're not working towards equality, you're taking orders and willingly acknowledging yourselves as inferior.

But pardon me for not laying down and dying to end the war. Pardon me for believing in progress. Pardon me for believing we should have rights. Pardon me for believing we should have freedom. Pardon me for believing we should be the autonomous beings we were created as. Pardon me for believing we should have true peace.

This never was a war. It always has been and always will be a redpill genocide.

 

Progress?!... what progress have you achieved? The only progress Mankind made when Neo implemented the truce... peace between Man and Machine. But from actions by you and yours, we have taken a step back, work Machinists have done to provide a stable foundation of trust between Man and Machine has been placed in jeopardy because of them. Thankfully, the Machines still have an open mind and don't associate your actions with us. Without Order there is Chaos, on old Earth there were governments, military and police. Orders were given, Laws were made and adhered to by the civilians yet it was acceptable... You also take orders from your superiors do you not? Yet this is exactly what you are fighting against.

True peace is obtained by cooperation and understanding.

You're missing the point entirely.

If the machines have a right to protect part of the agreement, have we no right to protect what is another part of the agreement? Pardon me if I am wrong, but wasn't it a part of the agreement that Machine would not harm human, and human would not harm Machine? If you can see the formation of the Cypherites as well within the bounds of the Truce, whereas it violates the other portion of it ("protects" the 1% agreement, infringes upon the no side killing the other agreement) how do you see Zion building fortifications as outside the bounds of the Truce? It protects the "no side killing the other" agreement, and possibly infringes upon the 1% agreement, though, I'll add there was never any proof of the latter.

By your logic, the Machines broke the Truce far before we did. You're simply not acknowledging it because it does not support your side.

Given the fact that they declared war and destroyed Zion within as short a timeframe as they did, I'd postulate that it was premeditated. Can I say for certain? No, of course not. But it's quite more than likely, especially with the half a million sentinels that had been camped right outside the city for more than a year.

Can you prove that we would've gone beyond the limits of the Truce simply because we were living in a new city? I've already told you that I would have rebelled against the administration along with many others had they submitted to such a policy, and we had already disowned EPN on the grounds that they had been exacting this policy - I'd say that's pretty good evidence that we meant to remain within the boundaries of the Truce concerning awakenings. But you, and they, don't care, do you? You place such an emphasis on our history - perhaps they should have reviewed that part about the public reaction to the Vietnam War.

As for Cypherites - if the Machines created them and oversaw them, don't you think they should have exerted some sort of control over their techniques and activities if they saw them as too extreme? But they didn't. They didn't care that they killed our operatives. They endorsed it, and continued to endorse it during the Truce, after the cat was out of the bag, as Veil lead the Cypherites. Oh, they hoped Cryptos might come back, but they were willing enough to continue on with Veil.

Outside for over a year, and didn't attack when their forces were strongest.... yet New Zion was completed as soon as the Machines lost huge numbers in the battle against the General. Coincidence....

But I cannot prove what you are asking me and you cannot prove what I was asking you it seems that while we a posturing here the war is continuing....

You said it yourself that New Zion was planned out near the end of the Truce - thereby its time of completion (well, it wasn't even complete, by the way) is completely coincidental.

No one can say anything for certain, in absolute. But what's there a better case for? What's there more evidence towards? We gave them the benefit of the doubt with their sentinels for a great length of time - and what did we get in return when we had a "potentially dangerous" situation? No benefit of the doubt - they simply used that which we had given the benefit of the doubt to.

Obviously not very well. My main point being that inside new Zion, nothing is a threat, but the EMP's are located on the outside, and Hovercraft leave New Zion. If everything and everyone in New Zion stayed inside... I, personally can't see a problem.... but in order to access the Simulation you have to be outside New Zion. as I said, it is your activities outside New Zion and the ability for it to harbour hovercraft that can or have committed illegal activities that causes concern.

Right, but what was the war started based on? New Zion, right? If nothing within New Zion is a threat, then there should never have been a war. And it was the war which rendered hovercraft and Matrix operations hostile, wasn't it? If there were no war, hovercraft and Matrix operations would not be illegal. And if New Zion's not a threat, as you've said, then why the war? What's the point?

You're not admitting it, but you've already stated it - the war is a lie founded on false pretexts.

Oh, and if you're making the case for ships that would have been flagged as illegal during the Truce - I've already said that we'd rebel against a leadership which went against the Truce, I've already told you that we'd disowned EPN to uphold the Truce - what evidence is there to suggest that we would harbor anyone committing illegal activities? That's all assumption - the kind of assumption that leads to unjust, unfounded genocidal wars.

Right, we're carrying out operations to restore protocols which were perfectly legal during peacetime. Pardon me once more if I find your notion that these operations are "aggressive" in any manner laughable. As for our combatting Agents and Machine Programs? They're enforcing the Machine edict, of course we're going to fight them. Combat is to be expected among opposing parties during war, and is to be discouraged during a time of peace. That's just a flip of a switch there, as far as programs are concerned.

Perfectly legal privileges that were given to you by the Machines and then taken away. They are aggressive in the form that you are trying to take back the privileges without permission from those in control of the system.

Again, taken away why? For reasons you have proven to be unjust and unfounded.

Taken away from you due to your blatant and obvious violation of the truce as I have already mentioned thus proving that the reasons are just and founded.

You contradicted yourself. There's a difference. Either way, you've proven that these demonized operations are irrelevant to your argument, and hard to classify as "aggressive" being that they are only trying to re-establish things common during Trucetime. If it's something you could use while there's peace, why would it be considered hostile, anyhow? That simply doesn't make sense.

The actions you are undertaking to regain the privileges you have lost and are now illegal for you are aggressive counteractions to law set out by the Machines in their territory. Its that simple. How can I make it simpler. Old Earth, two countries enjoying cooperation, allowing citizens to travel through one another. If they go to war and they close their borders, citizens wont still travel through suggesting that if it was legal in peace time... why isn't it now.....

They also tell their citizens that they're at war. Whereas these citizens know nothing - not even that they are prisoners to a dictatorial nation. Somem will hop the berlin wall, others will not. Most won't even see it. But we're not their citizens, no no. We've never been.

By what has happened and what you have said, you're saying that after an enemy nation has destroyed a relay tower, the nation attacked has no right to rebuild it.

Priviledge? Hah. We did it before the Truce, during the Truce, and we will do it now.

Let me spell it out for you. We don't like other people poking into our business. Had we turned over that information, the Machines would have been in control. We don't want them to be in control. We want to be in control of our own matters. The Machines have proven that they are control freaks and to give them that much information would have been problematic.

Well keep your business away from impacting on the simulation and there will be no cause for them to poke into it.... The simulation and the bluepills are their business... yet you continue to poke your noses into it.... live and let live....?

Oh, but we were permitted to impact the simulation, were we not? Poking into their business would be much like asking about the politics and schematics of Zero One - sending spy ships to look around there for vulnerabilities. But we never did that, now, did we?

As long as the Matrix is populated by human beings, I will never consider it a territory belonging to the Machines.

What change? You're not progressing, you're regressing. You've gone back to submitting your entire lives to their control, to give into the caste system. You're not working towards equality, you're taking orders and willingly acknowledging yourselves as inferior.

But pardon me for not laying down and dying to end the war. Pardon me for believing in progress. Pardon me for believing we should have rights. Pardon me for believing we should have freedom. Pardon me for believing we should be the autonomous beings we were created as. Pardon me for believing we should have true peace.

This never was a war. It always has been and always will be a redpill genocide.

Progress?!... what progress have you achieved? The only progress Mankind made when Neo implemented the truce... peace between Man and Machine. But from actions by you and yours, we have taken a step back, work Machinists have done to provide a stable foundation of trust between Man and Machine has been placed in jeopardy because of them. Thankfully, the Machines still have an open mind and don't associate your actions with us. Without Order there is Chaos, on old Earth there were governments, military and police. Orders were given, Laws were made and adhered to by the civilians yet it was acceptable... You also take orders from your superiors do you not? Yet this is exactly what you are fighting against.

True peace is obtained by cooperation and understanding.

Again I tell you I supported the Truce until its dying day. I worked closely with Machines and Machinists alike. The step back was taken by the Machines - when they declared an unjust war which is indeed nothing more than a thinly veiled redpill genocide. We take orders, but we question them. In example, quite a time ago we were asked to undertake an operation for the General and we did, after much questioning. Following the operation, which was quite clearly a mistake, all involved agreed that we would never again do errands for the General. And we never did. I've seen few Machinists who have neglected to work with Cypherites when ordered, or who have questioned anything at all ordered of them. As a matter of fact, this is my point against the operation shown here - you were ordered to kill, and did so without thinking, without questioning.

There will never be understanding without questioning. Know that.

I see that this debate has been going around in circles. Neither of us is going to change our opinions at any time soon. I have a hope that this Intruder as a blessing in disguise, that a common foe will force cooperation between Zion and Machines and will lead to a new Truce. Perhaps I am aiming too high in my hopes, time will tell. What I will continue to do is to work with the Machines to provide a future for Mankind. I can see no benefit in continuing this debate any longer.

Fat chance. I'm not throwing my lot in with the Machines this time anyway. We've already helped them sort enough of their problems in the Matrix - we don't owe them a *CENSORED* thing anymore. If he wants to take down the Matrix? That's his deal. I'm not going to stop him, and I'd discourage any Zionites from trying to do so.

Real peace is not the result of a temporary alliance. The genocidal tendencies of the Machines will not be forgiven and certainly will not be fogotten so easily.

But you're right on one point, and that is that this "argument" is going nowhere due to your stubbornness. It will show its use in the future, however, as the extended argument of the Machine has failed to hold up and in effect undermines itself.

I love it when people come in thinking there opinion is right/truth and force it on you.

Funny, I was just pointing that out here --  http://forums.station.sony.com/mxo/..._id=36300018789 -- and immediately afterwards someone gave an example of doing just that.

Illyria

The trick is to not try and speak on behalf of everyone. Generalization is a *CENSORED*, you claim one side thinks this way and thats it, when in reality we don't know everyone, we don't know how everyone thinks, and actully I doubt we truely can know how one single person thinks. Speak on behalf of yourself only and stop trying to generalize everyone else. You only end up pissing people off, looking like a fool, and starting seven page long arguements in multi colors.

Want to share your views fine but don't force them. As Karl Popper put it "No rational argument will have a rational effect on a man who does not want to adopt a rational attitude". You can't expect a Machine to suddently addapt a EPN belief system, or a Zionite a Merv's. All you can do is explain why you believe what you do, show evidence to support it, and answer questions that get asked. Change wont happen by force only by the willingness to accept it.

If I had the power to force my opinion, there would be no Machinists, no Cypherites. What's said was said. You can accept it, or you can reject it - that's your choice. I don't have the power to force anything on anyone. But I do have the power to put truth and logic out there for the accepting rational minds to see.

If I had the power to force my opinion, there would be no Machinists, no Cypherites.

That's the difference between our two organizations -- I never begrudged anyone their choice to work for Zion or the Merovingian, and I would never want to force anyone to join my org, even if I had that power. 

Zion has been indignant that not every redpill wants to stay with them ever since the truce went into effect.  (Check out the archived early missions for evidence of this...heck, even the introductory missions from Tyndall before the truce ended make it obvious that Zion looks down on anyone that leaves them.)

Illyria

Neoteny wrote:

If I had the power to force my opinion, there would be no Machinists, no Cypherites.

That's the difference between our two organizations -- I never begrudged anyone their choice to work for Zion or the Merovingian, and I would never want to force anyone to join my org, even if I had that power. 

Zion has been indignant that not every redpill wants to stay with them ever since the truce went into effect.  (Check out the archived early missions for evidence of this...heck, even the introductory missions from Tyndall before the truce ended make it obvious that Zion looks down on anyone that leaves them.)

 

 

Illyria

Stop pooling all of Zion into one giant anti-Machine group. you''ll find a few that really didn't want this war and are trying to get it back to how it was who may be offended that you write them off so easily. Machiniest aren't the only one's looking for Pecace you know.