So if you don't have a gun aginst your head then I believe we have an anwser to your earlier quiestion. You have fought with them, you have sided with them. If I were to look through the Machine archive to find what critical mission you had worked I would find you fighting side by side with them. No matter how much you cry about it or deny it the fact remains that you have still made the choice to work with them when asked.

kou_urake wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

from TGS from putting a few in me and the other Zionites while we were trying to kill Veil.

You were easier to aim at than Veil - ditto Colt. Don't go making wild assumptions about me actually liking the Cypherites - you're all the same to me.

You were an easier target also when I came back. Still went after Veil.

GamiSB wrote:

So if you don't have a gun aginst your head then I believe we have an anwser to your earlier quiestion. You have fought with them, you have sided with them. If I were to look through the Machine archive to find what critical mission you had worked I would find you fighting side by side with them. No matter how much you cry about it or deny it the fact remains that you have still made the choice to work with them when asked.

You want to outright contradict my word? Fine. Pray, produce evidence that I have worked with Cypherites. And you should know, before you generalise the actions of Machinists in their missions, that there have been missions I've refused to accept.

I'll admit that there have been instances where, say, the Cypherites have produced some vague report or a piece of questionable evidence, which has in turn resulted in the Machines planning an operation for us Machinists. By my definition, in such instances we are not working with Cypherites. Cypherites are absent from these operations, in fact! The Machines worked with them, then we worked with the Machines; these were not concurrent events but sequential ones.

GamiSB wrote:

kou_urake wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

from TGS from putting a few in me and the other Zionites while we were trying to kill Veil.

You were easier to aim at than Veil - ditto Colt. Don't go making wild assumptions about me actually liking the Cypherites - you're all the same to me.

You were an easier target also when I came back. Still went after Veil.

I know. Just making it clear - I don't work with Cypherites.

Heh, whatever helps you sleep at night but just FYI your still working with them. Adding a middle man doesn't mean your not helping the supplier because your still handing over the money that gets sent off to them.

GamiSB wrote:

Heh, whatever helps you sleep at night but just FYI your still working with them. Adding a middle man doesn't mean your not helping the supplier because your still handing over the money that gets sent off to them.

Eh? I'm not entirely sure how the Cypherites are paid by the Machines, but it isn't in the results of whatever operations the Machinists undertake. I don't give the Cypherites anything.

Right, you dont help get the work done that they also want done. You've never been an erran boy of the Machines to them or taken out a particular Zionite or EPN that was a bother to them as well. You clearly are not helping them fight Zion in this war.

Let me spell it out for you, your both being paid by the machines. You both have the same agendas. You are both working for the sake of the System and you both have the same enemy. You can't share these quailities and not claim to be working with them because even if you sat back and avoided every operation that was so much within a million meters of a Cypherite, by helping advance the agenda of the Machine you are helping advance the Cypherite agenda.

Because of where the Cypherite org came from and its nature it is IMPOSSIBLE for a Machinest to be anti Cypherite. Because by suporting the Machine you support everything the Machine stands for which includes the Cypherites.

Procurator wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

Heh, whatever helps you sleep at night but just FYI your still working with them. Adding a middle man doesn't mean your not helping the supplier because your still handing over the money that gets sent off to them.

Eh? I'm not entirely sure how the Cypherites are paid by the Machines, but it isn't in the results of whatever operations the Machinists undertake. I don't give the Cypherites anything.

Right, you dont help get the work done that they also want done. You've never been an erran boy of the Machines to them or taken out a particular Zionite or EPN that was a bother to them as well. You clearly are not helping them fight Zion in this war.

Let me spell it out for you, your both being paid by the machines. You both have the same agendas. You are both working for the sake of the System and you both have the same enemy. You can't share these quailities and not claim to be working with them because even if you sat back and avoided every operation that was so much within a million meters of a Cypherite, by helping advance the agenda of the Machine you are helping advance the Cypherite agenda.

Because of where the Cypherite org came from and its nature it is IMPOSSIBLE for a Machinest to be anti Cypherite. Because by suporting the Machine you support everything the Machine stands for which includes the Cypherites.

As I said, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

Right, you dont help get the work done that they also want done. You've never been an erran boy of the Machines to them or taken out a particular Zionite or EPN that was a bother to them as well. You clearly are not helping them fight Zion in this war.

Let me spell it out for you, your both being paid by the machines. You both have the same agendas. You are both working for the sake of the System and you both have the same enemy. You can't share these quailities and not claim to be working with them because even if you sat back and avoided every operation that was so much within a million meters of a Cypherite, by helping advance the agenda of the Machine you are helping advance the Cypherite agenda.

Because of where the Cypherite org came from and its nature it is IMPOSSIBLE for a Machinest to be anti Cypherite. Because by suporting the Machine you support everything the Machine stands for which includes the Cypherites.

As I said, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

GamiSB wrote:

Right, you dont help get the work done that they also want done. You've never been an erran boy of the Machines to them or taken out a particular Zionite or EPN that was a bother to them as well. You clearly are not helping them fight Zion in this war.

Let me spell it out for you, your both being paid by the machines. You both have the same agendas. You are both working for the sake of the System and you both have the same enemy. You can't share these quailities and not claim to be working with them because even if you sat back and avoided every operation that was so much within a million meters of a Cypherite, by helping advance the agenda of the Machine you are helping advance the Cypherite agenda.

I think I see the issue here. You seem to be under the impression that Cypherite goals are the same as Machinists'. Machinists have varying goals, like restoring peace (we used to maintain it, until the Pestilence proved themselves a lost cause, so now we can only restore peace by shutting you up it seems), clearing the sky, understanding the Machines, improving the future for Man and Machine. Cypherites, on the other hand, are entirely self-serving. No longer able to strive for their supposed original goal of reinsertion, they now work for the organisation that pays the most - and naturally this is the Machines, as no one else can offer anything of equal value.

So the Machine is not at all intersted in clearing the Matrix of Zionites right now? Or makeing sure that there are no awakenings? Face it you two have more in common now then you can possibly imagine. Oh sure the Machine may hve a few things they alone want and the Cyphs as well but it all boils down to the same number one thing. Protecting the System.

They don't have idealistic goals like Machinists do; if they did they'd be Machinists. They want to see New Zion destroyed because they hate the place, not because they see it as a threat or because they want to restore peace. The Cypherite agenda is not the Machines'. However, the Machines hire them as mercenaries, and this is a sad fact that Machinists have long protested, to no avail. But we do protest. And though our protestations often fall on deaf ears, we stand by the Machines. I ask you to suggest an alternative. We can't go anywhere else because all other options are far worse.

Now see here is where you lost all credibility. Speaking on behalf of the Cypherites and claiming to know their motives. Did a Cypherite not just say that I was right and agree with me? Clearly your a a bit misinformed about them if not allowing your own bias to blind you from the truth. The Cypherites want what you want. A safe and terrorist free system. Why? Who cares, motives don't make an org the agenda does and the agenda is still the same. Merc or not my point still stands. You support the Machine, you suport who the Machine hires.

People like myself do our best to hinder the Cypherites. We do so without regard for the Machines' employment of them, and so far the Machines have not done anything other than enforce the engagement protocols that stop us from hurting the Cypherites in the Simulation. In my opinion, your argument that by helping the Machines we are helping the Cypherites is poor, and the weight you put on it is vastly overemphasised when you consider all the things we do against the Cypherites. Think of it this way: we do not co-operate.

And what exactly have you done "against" them. I hear you brag on and on about it yet not a word do I hear from any Cypherite about how some Machinest have been destoying their ships or hindering their work. Actully come to think of it the only times I hear of anything being done aginst the Cypherites by a Machinist is from the Machinist that is claiming to have done it. Hardly a realiable source especially when they are the only ones telling the story. Your argument has one major hole. If the Machine wants you to not attack Cypherites in their system what makes you think they allow it in the real? That Cypherite ship you suposidly just destoyed for all you know could have been getting orders on something Gray wanted done or looked into. How silly would you have looked if you took out the ship that was sent to find New Zion hmm?

((really the god mode "real" RP is getting old and other then what you and others say the story says your all good little soliders and haven't been attacking cyphs in the real. RP how ya want but dont expect me to bend over for ya when the story to date says otherwise and gives no mention to your "attacks". Show me where a Machinst has gotten told off for something they did to a Cyph or where a Cyph mentions being attacked by the Machines in the real and Ill acknoledge it but untill then it aint canon to the story thus far))

If we're the same, why are we still two distinct organisations? There are clear differences, differences I have repeated over and over very clearly, yet differences you refuse to accept. If you persist in this jaded and dogmatic view of us, I pity you.

Why is there more then one Machie faction? Diffrent motives same agenda. Think of the Cyph org as a giant faction with its own controler in the Machine org and I think you will find yur answer.

GamiSB wrote:

Because of where the Cypherite org came from and its nature it is IMPOSSIBLE for a Machinest to be anti Cypherite. Because by suporting the Machine you support everything the Machine stands for which includes the Cypherites.

Read my lips. (Okay, read my text. I could provide you with footage of my lips moving, but I doubt you'd enjoy it.) I am anti-Cypherite. Fact. I decide who I am and what I believe, not anyone else.

I am anti-Cypherite. Fact. I decide who I am and what I believe, not anyone else.

I would like to see this proven. I've seen no so-called Machinist defy that which they have been told to do or think in quite a time. And when they are told to think something which defies their previous point, they immediately defect to the new way of thinking.

Case in point, the incident of one Mr. Navin Manohar - a bluepill and a potential. Mr. Manohar was deceived, and his life was taken by Machinists in order to craft a replacement with a tracking device as a measure of hindering Zion operations. Prior to this incident, Machinists cried out about bluepills being killed by accident and by those killed in some means attempting to gain information or strategic advantages. Some went as far as to condemn anyone for attempting to fight back against agents, and said some still hold these beliefs. Yet, following the Manohar incident, suddenly the sacrifice "for the greater good" was viewed as perfectly acceptable by the Machine (at this point, the Machinists cease to be).

You want to prove you have free thought? Exercise it. Do you want a war with Zion? Tell them to end it - they hold the power. Have you ever questioned why it is being perpetuated, knowing that we have not been able to make any sort of counterattack, and, over the course of several months have done nothing to destabalize the Matrix? Ask them why the war was started, and when they respond "dual paranoia," ask them why it has not yet been ended as their fears have been refuted. Moreover, ask them what they want from this war. Ask them what they believe they will accomplish by destroying Zion that they have not already accomplished.

There is but one thing they have yet to put an end to, and that is the freeing of minds.

Why do you think we so desperately aim to continue the process? Because if we do not, it will die, and so will the freedom of the podborn human beings who want and deserve out. What did you think this war was about?

In addition (this could be viewed as a postscript) this just goes to prove the coincidence of the Machine and Cypherite agenda. The Machine wishes that there be no further awakenings, as do the Cypherites. The end goal is one and the same. As Machinists, you would supposedly side with the Machine in an attempt to further their goals. In the days of the Truce, this could be considered attempting to further and encourage peace through understanding of the Machine. However, in these days of war, when one adopts the goals of the Machine, which are the goals of the Cypherite, one can only realize that there are no longer Machinists, only the Machine, and the Cypherite.

And we will.

I'm with Cykosis on the defending territory argument. The Machinist way of thinking may be to get us out and let us stay out of "their territory" and call it a day or "leave us to the Cypherites" or whatever, but the Machine way of thinking is control and always has been since the creation of the Matrix. Their puppets live as spies among us. Their scouts sit outside of our home and watch, monitoring us for an opening that they can exploit. If they are so set on destroying our territory and us with it, I see no reason to respect theirs. Especially when there are people that still reject their prison and want out. Until Zion is safe, the Matrix won't be safe either.

There's no point in arguing your case Proc, these people obviously have their minds set on one stereotype, believing their own propaganda to the point where nothing else can be true.

Personally I would work, on occasion, with the Cyphs if their goal and mine coincide and that they act within grounds that I agree with ie. no excessive violence, only doing what is necessary and they didn't, by way of actions, endanger any chance of eventual peace. Considering that they don't usually keep within those bounds, needless to say, I don't work with them very often.

Machinists can do the jobs handed to the Cyphs, only we would take more time in the planning and try to prevent exorbitant killing, In some situations, time is of the essence, and the Machines may decide that Cyphs will have results quicker than us. I cannot wait for the day when Gray decides that the Cyphs are unnecessary, that Machinists can do the jobs with little or no violance without needing to be paid mercenary money.  You'll find me one of the first to try to prevent them from their murderous actions, until then I see them as an unfortunate, but necessary evil.

Of course this is my view, Not Procs. I cannot begin to understand what he has been through and would probably take on his view if I had gone thorugh the same. But in your views I am a Machine I have no independant thought.

You are putting on me, what you say the Machines are doing to you. You want Mankind to have free thought and liberty yet when I act on my own free will and thought you dismiss it entirely.

I'm doing no such thing. I'm showing you the reality of the situation you and every Machinst is in. It's the same with every Zion and EPN and Merv and Exile. This isn't some sterotype but a simple fact that if you are in support one group you are saying that no matter what that group does you have no problems with it. You can't say that you have never helped the Cypheites when every EPN or Zion you kill is a help to them.  Because even while you physicaly may not have been there you are still supporting the people that were.

I will say it again by suporting the Machine you support everything the Machine stands for which includes the Cypherites.

Just because through some actions, that are required to achieve a goal, those same actions help another organisation with their goal does in no way mean that we support them and their ideals. Support would be to actively make sure that they are able to achieve their goals and ideals.

I have major problems with their attitude and methods, yet still regard them as a temporary necessity, and do not go out of my way to make sure that their goals are met. If their goals and mine coincide then I shall only work in conjunction, as I have pointed out before, as longs as their methods are reasonable to the required task.

You are telling it how it is from your biased perception, you may believe it, but that does not make it true.

Ever since the exposure of Cryptos' overwritten minds the Cyphs have become mercenarys meaning that they do what they want and if the Machines want something they pay for it. A purchase of services is not support. Except in monitary regards. If the Machines still supported the original idea of Cyphs, then they would have just 'manufactured' another leader, re-overwritten Cryotos' mind or at the very least, neglect to release the information about the inability to return to the pods.