To recap, Machinists believe that it's okay for human beings to live out their entire lives immersed in a bath of liquified human remains being fed a steady diet of electromagnetic lies by an artificial intelligence.  I and many others, on the other hand, believe that this is ghoulish and perverse, and that we can do better than settling for merely being the host for a parasitic race of Machines . . . even if we have to make our way in a world that has been destroyed by people fighting an ancient war we had nothing to do with.

This is a fundamental disagreement that neither side is open to persuasion about.  This disagreement is why Machinists rant and rant about us not giving reasons or not responding to arguments.  What they really mean is that we don't offer reasons or arguments that they agree with.  In fact, we could give them reasons and arguments until we are blue (or red?) in the face, and they would say the same thing because they disagree with our basic assumptions about how the world should work.

Welcome to war, friends.  As imax so aptly put it, "Pfft."

To recap, Machinists believe that it's okay for human beings to live out their entire lives immersed in a bath of liquified human remains being fed a steady diet of electromagnetic lies by an artificial intelligence.  I and many others, on the other hand, believe that this is ghoulish and perverse, and that we can do better than settling for merely being the host for a parasitic race of Machines . . . even if we have to make our way in a world that has been destroyed by people fighting an ancient war we had nothing to do with.

This is a fundamental disagreement that neither side is open to persuasion about.  This disagreement is why Machinists rant and rant about us not giving reasons or not responding to arguments.  What they really mean is that we don't offer reasons or arguments that they agree with.  In fact, we could give them reasons and arguments until we are blue (or red?) in the face, and they would say the same thing because they disagree with our basic assumptions about how the world should work.

Welcome to war, friends.  As imax so aptly put it, "Pfft."

You may as well just read this, then.

Imax, that had nothing to do with the prvious point of hypocracy, which still stands, but to address your "analogy" - how would you feel given the following:

You have a house. All of your family has lived in this house for quite some time, and they call it a home. Your neighbor has tried to break into your house for many years and has killed members of your family while a family feud raged (Hatfield-McCoy style), but you have finally made peace. However, your neighbor has left several bombs scattered around the perimiter of your house, and if they go off, your house, as well as your family will die. One day you decide to build a blast shelter in your back yard, and when your neighbor realizes that you are nearly done, he detonates the bombs he has places as quickly as he can. Your home is destroyed. The patriarch of the family dies, as do several of the children, but some manage to make it to the blast shelter before the bombs go off and are unharmed.

Or wouldn't you have built the bomb shelter when you saw that your house was surrounded by bombs?

The Matrix is as much the home of humanity as it is the home of the Machine. Why? The Machine does not exist solely within the Matrix - as a matter of fact, it exists primarily outside of the Matrix. The majority of humanity lives in the Matrix. Many who live outside of the Matrix now were once its residents. But never have the Machines existed solely within the Matrix.

To the Machine the Matrix is nothing but a field. But do you justify eating the crops when you know they can think, feel, speak? When they tell you they do not want to be a "crop" for consumption? The Machines are cannibal owners of a jail. They eat the prisoners, and the prisoners have no say in the matter.

But, moreover, how can you claim to care about the wellfare of bluepills when all you see them as is a crop?

cov wrote:

To recap, Machinists believe that it's okay for human beings to live out their entire lives immersed in a bath of liquified human remains being fed a steady diet of electromagnetic lies by an artificial intelligence.  I and many others, on the other hand, believe that this is ghoulish and perverse, and that we can do better than settling for merely being the host for a parasitic race of Machines . . . even if we have to make our way in a world that has been destroyed by people fighting an ancient war we had nothing to do with.

This is a fundamental disagreement that neither side is open to persuasion about.  This disagreement is why Machinists rant and rant about us not giving reasons or not responding to arguments.  What they really mean is that we don't offer reasons or arguments that they agree with.  In fact, we could give them reasons and arguments until we are blue (or red?) in the face, and they would say the same thing because they disagree with our basic assumptions about how the world should work.

Welcome to war, friends.  As imax so aptly put it, "Pfft."

I whole heartedly agree with the text highlighted in red. As for the rest... Just another weapon you like to use in your word wars. It was taken entirely out of context and humans like doing that to each other in order to gain an advantage over their opponent.

Sleeping in a pod living in a world exactly like the one that existed before it was destroyed. People going to work, making money, becoming successful or failing at life just like the life humans threw away. People laughing and crying together. Going to the movies, even people playing MMOs together from all over the far corners of the simulation ((hehe)) But you would choose to ignor that part and only focus on the part that those same humans never know about and are completely oblivious. Yea yea there were those who figured it out, and guess what, the machines let you take them out and live in the other world, but that privilege was abused to no end therefor you have been cut off.

As you so aptly put it "Welcome to war, friends"

You may as well just read this, then.

Imax, that had nothing to do with the prvious point of hypocracy, which still stands, but to address your "analogy" - how would you feel given the following:

You have a house. All of your family has lived in this house for quite some time, and they call it a home. Your neighbor has tried to break into your house for many years and has killed members of your family while a family feud raged (Hatfield-McCoy style), but you have finally made peace. However, your neighbor has left several bombs scattered around the perimiter of your house, and if they go off, your house, as well as your family will die. One day you decide to build a blast shelter in your back yard, and when your neighbor realizes that you are nearly done, he detonates the bombs he has places as quickly as he can. Your home is destroyed. The patriarch of the family dies, as do several of the children, but some manage to make it to the blast shelter before the bombs go off and are unharmed.

Or wouldn't you have built the bomb shelter when you saw that your house was surrounded by bombs?

The Matrix is as much the home of humanity as it is the home of the Machine. Why? The Machine does not exist solely within the Matrix - as a matter of fact, it exists primarily outside of the Matrix. The majority of humanity lives in the Matrix. Many who live outside of the Matrix now were once its residents. But never have the Machines existed solely within the Matrix.

To the Machine the Matrix is nothing but a field. But do you justify eating the crops when you know they can think, feel, speak? When they tell you they do not want to be a "crop" for consumption? The Machines are cannibal owners of a jail. They eat the prisoners, and the prisoners have no say in the matter.

But, moreover, how can you claim to care about the wellfare of bluepills when all you see them as is a crop?

I just found it amusing that imax referred to the extraction of Blues as a privilege. Not to side with Zionites, but I don't see it as a privilege at all. To have something be presented as a privilege, we'd have to submit to your authority in the first place. This was never the case. Even before the Merovingian was an option for operatives, we were extracting humans based only on their readiness to exit the simulation. When the Machines decided to stop hindering extraction efforts, that was something that didn't effect our logic in awakening Bluepills - only the ease at which we could do it.

Maybe your masters allow the extraction of Blue's as a privilege, but neither Merovingian operatives or Zionite operatives refer to the Machines as any sort of authority. Therefore, we'll extract as many as we *CENSORED* well please. If you have a problem with us, try to stop it. I can guarantee you that even if you were to succeed, we'd make sure that it was at a high price.

It doesn't seem logical to hinder extraction efforts if you're going to expend more resources (operatives) in the end than you would, if you achieved your goal. There is no reward for ending extractions. So either the Machines are operating under flawed logic, or they view their human operatives as completely expendable.

imax wrote:

cov wrote:

To recap, Machinists believe that it's okay for human beings to live out their entire lives immersed in a bath of liquified human remains being fed a steady diet of electromagnetic lies by an artificial intelligence.  I and many others, on the other hand, believe that this is ghoulish and perverse, and that we can do better than settling for merely being the host for a parasitic race of Machines . . . even if we have to make our way in a world that has been destroyed by people fighting an ancient war we had nothing to do with.

This is a fundamental disagreement that neither side is open to persuasion about.  This disagreement is why Machinists rant and rant about us not giving reasons or not responding to arguments.  What they really mean is that we don't offer reasons or arguments that they agree with.  In fact, we could give them reasons and arguments until we are blue (or red?) in the face, and they would say the same thing because they disagree with our basic assumptions about how the world should work.

Welcome to war, friends.  As imax so aptly put it, "Pfft."

I whole heartedly agree with the text highlighted in red. As for the rest... Just another weapon you like to use in your word wars. It was taken entirely out of context and humans like doing that to each other in order to gain an advantage over their opponent.

Sleeping in a pod living in a world exactly like the one that existed before it was destroyed. People going to work, making money, becoming successful or failing at life just like the life humans threw away. People laughing and crying together. Going to the movies, even people playing MMOs together from all over the far corners of the simulation ((hehe)) But you would choose to ignor that part and only focus on the part that those same humans never know about and are completely oblivious. Yea yea there were those who figured it out, and guess what, the machines let you take them out and live in the other world, but that privilege was abused to no end therefor you have been cut off.

As you so aptly put it "Welcome to war, friends"

I just found it amusing that imax referred to the extraction of Blues as a privilege. Not to side with Zionites, but I don't see it as a privilege at all. To have something be presented as a privilege, we'd have to submit to your authority in the first place. This was never the case. Even before the Merovingian was an option for operatives, we were extracting humans based only on their readiness to exit the simulation. When the Machines decided to stop hindering extraction efforts, that was something that didn't effect our logic in awakening Bluepills - only the ease at which we could do it.

Maybe your masters allow the extraction of Blue's as a privilege, but neither Merovingian operatives or Zionite operatives refer to the Machines as any sort of authority. Therefore, we'll extract as many as we *CENSORED* well please. If you have a problem with us, try to stop it. I can guarantee you that even if you were to succeed, we'd make sure that it was at a high price.

It doesn't seem logical to hinder extraction efforts if you're going to expend more resources (operatives) in the end than you would, if you achieved your goal. There is no reward for ending extractions. So either the Machines are operating under flawed logic, or they view their human operatives as completely expendable.

Ha-ha!  You hypocrite!  In the above post you try to dismiss our arguments by saying that we dismiss your arguments, and then in your very next post you do nothing but dismiss my argument!  You obvious hypocrite! You don't counter my argument because you CAN'T because WE ARE RIGHT and YOU ARE WRONG and in your heart you KNOW it, otherwise you would address my points one by one instead of attempting to to dismiss them en masse. 

All organizations do things which aren't morally right. Each organization has done questionable things in the past. There will always be things in which people simply can't defend. I'd be suprised if there was a Machinist out there who could honestly say that they felt certain things could have been handled or dealt with better in the past. Equally I'd be suprised if any Zionite or member of EPN could honestly do the same. Which leads us into limbo, with a swings-and-roundabouts arguement in which each side will bring up the others discrepancies from the past, and ultimately leads us no-where...suprisingly.

But Zionites so very readily took the privilege of awakening them without direct intervention from the Machines, therefore accepting the Machines as the authority of the simulation and started to wake the 1%. Sure they were doing it beforehand but only in small amounts, considerably less than the 1% who rejected the system until Neo came along for a few months. Logic doesn't have anything having the privilege to extract with no recourse. And as I have previously mentioned before, just because Zion has had the privilege taken away does not inhibit Machinists to do so if we wish. The systems stance on the Merovingian waking bluepills, if he ever sanctions such an act, would most likely be the same as Zion.

Humans only physically stay in the pods, they 'live' out their lives within the simulation not knowing any different then what our ancestors knew. They would in all likelihood lead out a better mental existence there than in the real.

No, the flaw in machinist thought is the same as the thought of our enemies.  We believe so firmly that our path is right that sometimes we refuse to see the truth.  We refuse to admit fault and defiantly argue otherwise.

We are all human here.  We are bound to mistakes, arrogance, ambition, greed, pride and self-delusion.  As a result we often do no see our errors and thus we are bound to repeat them.

The Machines have made mistakes.  They have done things that our society finds morally unjust.  They have done things that have made the most talkative, speechless.  However, they are not the only ones.  We all have our sins to bear whether we see them or hide them from sight.

Am I blind to continue to follow them?  No.  Everyone is subject to mistakes, even those who live by logic.  However, nothing is ever gained by giving up.  Anything worth having is worth fighting for.  So you could say that machinists aren't so different from anyone else.  We firmly believe that if we remain with the Machines, a difference can be made.  We can learn from each other if we work with each other.  That's practically our motto.

No one is perfect.  Accept it and move forward.  Together we can grow.  That's what a machinist truly believes.

We have forgiven the Machines.  It's time to forgive ourselves and move forward.  Otherwise, someone's tremendous sacrifice was all in vain.

Hmmm. . .

I have been giving this much thought lately. Why, if we all agree that establishing a true and lasting peace is the only way we can all survive, are we still arguing?

I can only arrive at one answer. Which, all things being equal, only leads to another question: where is the Oracle?

You see, I've reached the conclusion that where we (humans and Machines) are today can be laid at the feet of the Mother of the Matrix. She has been pulling everyone's strings since the day she met Morpheus, and probably earlier. We've been dancing this marionette's dance to her tune for so long that we've forgotten who's been leading this thing.

In any case, I'll leave you with a few quotes from the Oracle that are germane to the current conversation and the argument as a whole.

"Memory's a funny thing. Sometimes it seems like people remember everything anybody's ever said to them...but only in a certain context.

People are pretty good at remembering things I tell them most of the time, though--means I have to be careful with what I say. I suppose I'm used to it by now.

That's another funny thing: they'll remember what I say, even if they don't know what it meant. Not that I'm complaining, mind you."

"Some people listen; some people don't. Some of those who listen hear what you tell them; most hear what they want to hear. Some of them who heard understand; some don't get it.

Just another part of playing the odds."

"New day, same old questions: Neo, Morpheus, Smith... Anome may have gone off the deep end because he couldn't accept reality, but how many people have I met who won't accept that Neo is gone--that Morpheus is gone? Do I consider them crazy? Hm... Well, maybe a few of them. But having hope might not be such a bad kind of crazy, after all."

"People want power. It's been that way for a long time, as far as I can tell, and I don't expect it will change any time soon. The Matrix was supposed to keep people from getting power--real power--but then we had to throw the 1% wrinkle in, and here we are. Is it worth it? The 1%, the One--they were all supposed to stop deaths, stop the killing. Oh, not of the 1%, of course--they were written off anyway--but the other ninety-nine. But nowadays we have things like code bombs and super-powered Unlimit killing bystanders left and right. Oh, sure, they get taken care of eventually, but other problems will come along in the same way.

The Machines think they can fix the problem by getting more control. But the more you prevent people from getting power, the harder they'll try. What can we do? None of the obvious paths seem possible: remove the power, remove the people, or change the people. Can we do any of those? Should we? Boy, this is a real stumper."

"The Matrix is a place with an awful lot of personality. That's part of what fools a lot of people, you know; they don't think that a computer simulation could possibly have so many real characters in it. It's taken a whole lot of tinkering, but we've managed it, although I'll admit that we may have a few kinks left to work out. The Architect may have gone a little overboard when he allowed for the creation of the Merovingian's personality, for instance.

But that's what we get for trying to emulate humans, I suppose: unpredictability. Anyway, our various high-profile personalities seem to keep our guests amused, and they--the humans, I mean--give us some pretty interesting characters to study in return. They're always asking about the Merovingian, or Seraph, or Sati, or even me; but they also want to know about Niobe, and Morpheus--who I don't think they'll ever forget--and the rest. They argue over them, even fight over them, and, of course, over each other.

It's possible that without personalities involved, we might not have the threat of war. But without personality, would there be anything worth fighting for?"

"I realized the other day that I hadn't really asked anyone what they think of the Truce--not about how successful or unsuccessful it is, but how they feel about it. See, I know that many people believe in it very strongly, but some don't. They may see it as a sham, an obstacle, a compromise... Everybody has their own take on it.

Peace can be more confusing than war. It's harder to take sides. Maybe that's why some try so hard to break it."

"It's funny how sometimes if you just sit down and talk to someone, things will clear right up.

Take these E Pluribus Neo folks, for example. Big, tough "terrorists," right? Well, I don't know. I try not to categorize people, at least not before I've had a chat with them. Sit 'em down, ask 'em just what it is they're after, and you start to realize that maybe things aren't as gosh-darned complicated as they looked when everyone was running around with guns blazing.

The thing is, people don't usually take the time to stop and try to figure out what it is they're really after, and they don't realize that most people are pretty much after the same things, when you drill right down to it. Put those two types of misunderstanding together, give one group something the other doesn't have, and boy, you've got trouble. Happens every time.

So I had a chat with them. We talked about some pretty surprising things, too. Will it make a difference? That depends on what they decide to do. Maybe followers of Neo are just gonna repeat his mistakes no matter what. Could do worse, I suppose. Good intentions won't always pull you through by themselves...but they're not a bad start."

Vinia wrote:

But Zionites so very readily took the privilege of awakening them without direct intervention from the Machines, therefore accepting the Machines as the authority of the simulation and started to wake the 1%. Sure they were doing it beforehand but only in small amounts, considerably less than the 1% who rejected the system until Neo came along for a few months. Logic doesn't have anything having the privilege to extract with no recourse. And as I have previously mentioned before, just because Zion has had the privilege taken away does not inhibit Machinists to do so if we wish. The systems stance on the Merovingian waking bluepills, if he ever sanctions such an act, would most likely be the same as Zion.

Humans only physically stay in the pods, they 'live' out their lives within the simulation not knowing any different then what our ancestors knew. They would in all likelihood lead out a better mental existence there than in the real.

These are assumptions, and you know what happens when we make assumptions. The flaw in the Machinist human thought is the attempt to anticipate what the Machine sees fit in regards to situations like this based on speculation. You're probably right in that they may treat attempted extractions by the Merovingian opts the same way as Zion. But that's because they don't want more of their "crop" in Zion or anywhere else. There was no clause given that states that their own can do whatever the hell they want. Colonel Sanders said "No more extractions are allowed." Furthermore, a "better mental existence" is subjective. To the viewpoints of the Machine and people that share their interests, sure it's better. But to those of us that still believe in what IS wrong with their lie and why we rejected it, don't necessarily think so.