I'm confident in my idea because unlike other theories of a "hell Matrix mine doesn't try to twist things to make it work and ignore certain areas but rather addresses the issue directly as its presented by the guy that built the *CENSORED* things. Is my idea right? No idea, but at the least I'm sure that this "Hell" Matrix was never apart of the second version and if it did exist it was then apart of the first.

I should also mention though that I've long sense abandoned any faith in an "extream Matrix fan's" explanation for things because most follow the same pattern. The fan has their own idea and twists what they need to in order to make it work and then ignore the rest. Seraph being a former One, Reinsertion, Zion being in a Matrix, etc. Granted this is no reason for my own ideas being right or wrong just my take on the "facts".

As for where these exiles came from, this was explained in the second film.

"There are programs running all over the place. The ones doing their job, doing what they were meant to do, are invisible. You'd never even know they were here. But the other ones, well, we hear about them all the time. Every time you've heard someone say they saw a ghost, or an angel. Every story you've ever heard about vampires, werewolves, or aliens is the system assimilating some program that's doing something they're not supposed to be doing."

They are simply former programs from past Matrixes that have become corrupted. They were never intended to appear as they do and their appearance is simply a bi-product of them remaining in the system.

And if anyone feels this has gotten off track Im mearly explaining why Sucubi, vamps, and lupines are not past Agents. If anything Version Two had the exiles that are in box 3 which were then switched out for our current Agents between Version 2 and now.

You make a very good point, but in support of the "Hell" idea, I have this to say:

The archived constructs in the game supposed to be instances of The Matrix that no longer exist. Two of these archived constructs are Achencourt and Widow's Moor. Not only do these instances contain Gargoyle, Lupines, and Blood-Drinkers, but they also have things that show a destroyed city, i.e. destroyed and rusty buildings, shopping carts, fences, etc. Couldn't this be the war torn cityscape of V2 of The Matrix? Isn't is a little ironic that that those programs' corruption happened to make them look like the monsters from the ideas of man? On the screens while V2 is being explained are Communist Russia, Nazi Germany, war, sickness, death, and radiant-burnt victims of an atomic bomb. Wouldn't all of these combined into one setting create practically a Hell on Earth? The Merovingian and Persephone have also implied that the Twins (ghosts), Cujo (werewolf), Vlad (vampire) , and other supernatural programs such as the present ones are from V2, but that is slightly opinionitive.

You make a very good point, but in support of the "Hell" idea, I have this to say:

The archived constructs in the game supposed to be instances of The Matrix that no longer exist. Two of these archived constructs are Achencourt and Widow's Moor. Not only do these instances contain Gargoyle, Lupines, and Blood-Drinkers, but they also have things that show a destroyed city, i.e. destroyed and rusty buildings, shopping carts, fences, etc. Couldn't this be the war torn cityscape of V2 of The Matrix? Isn't is a little ironic that that those programs' corruption happened to make them look like the monsters from the ideas of man? On the screens while V2 is being explained are Communist Russia, Nazi Germany, war, sickness, death, and radiant-burnt victims of an atomic bomb. Wouldn't all of these combined into one setting create practically a Hell on Earth? The Merovingian and Persephone have also implied that the Twins (ghosts), Cujo (werewolf), Vlad (vampire) , and other supernatural programs such as the present ones are from V2, but that is slightly opinionitive.

The archived constructs are hardly proof that V2 was a bombed out baren wasteland filled with blood drunks and lupines. In fact they only show us two things. A burnt down church and a cemetary. Something you can find in any time period. Also if I remember correctly the lupines and the other exiles there are not native but rather those constructs are used now as holding cells for them by the Merv. Next the Architect doesn't say that he built a world combineing man's history  into one but only that it was based off of it. The same idea was used for V3 and we arn't liveing in another "Hell" Matrix now are we? No, it a 1999 world that was built from what the Machines had recorded of how history had the world progress back when it was 1999 in the real.

As for why these exiles look like man's myths. Whos to say they aren't the bases of those myths? Another possiblity is that its just the effect of the corrupted code. The simulation needs its programs to maintain some kind of human figure and so the mutations are limited by a much deeper inprinted code.

Fractor wrote:

If the machines wanted to reflect on human history and not myth why did they create seraphim to serve as agents in the heaven version? The machines could have seen it as illogical to use angels as enforcers of the matrix if they don't exist.

The Architect built V1 with nothing else in mind but "Man's paradise". That is why such beings as Serphim were used to control it because they saw that man's most common idea of paradise was a "heaven". The second version however did not have paradise or a hell in mind but was built souly off of man's history. Not man's myths but its history, something that lupines, vamps, angels, and demons are in no way apart of.

GamiSB wrote:

The Architect built V1 with nothing else in mind but "Man's paradise". That is why such beings as Serphim were used to control it because they saw that man's most common idea of paradise was a "heaven". The second version however did not have paradise or a hell in mind but was built souly off of man's history. Not man's myths but its history, something that lupines, vamps, angels, and demons are in no way apart of.

Now I have a question. Sorry if I missed it, but are you basing this off fact or is it just well versed speculation?

I'm baseing this off of what the Architect tells Neo in Reloaded and what we know of V1. Broken down the speach goes like this.

V1 - "The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art - flawless, sublime. A triumph equalled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being."

V1 was a perfect world that's down fall was lead because of the inabblity to accept that world and man's (for lack of a better term) "sinful nature".

V2 - "Thus, I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure."

V2 was then created based off of man kinds history which was used to create the world we have now. The key word in what the Architect says is "Accurately" not figerativly or symbolicly. If the later two were the case then yes a "Hell" Matrix would be possible but since it is not and the crap side of man was only used to build the same world we had in 1999. This however was not enough and the lack of choice once again brought it all down.

Roukan wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

The Architect built V1 with nothing else in mind but "Man's paradise". That is why such beings as Serphim were used to control it because they saw that man's most common idea of paradise was a "heaven". The second version however did not have paradise or a hell in mind but was built souly off of man's history. Not man's myths but its history, something that lupines, vamps, angels, and demons are in no way apart of.

Now I have a question. Sorry if I missed it, but are you basing this off fact or is it just well versed speculation?

I'm baseing this off of what the Architect tells Neo in Reloaded and what we know of V1. Broken down the speach goes like this.

V1 - "The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art - flawless, sublime. A triumph equalled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being."

V1 was a perfect world that's down fall was lead because of the inabblity to accept that world and man's (for lack of a better term) "sinful nature".

V2 - "Thus, I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure."

V2 was then created based off of man kinds history which was used to create the world we have now. The key word in what the Architect says is "Accurately" not figerativly or symbolicly. If the later two were the case then yes a "Hell" Matrix would be possible but since it is not and the crap side of man was only used to build the same world we had in 1999. This however was not enough and the lack of choice once again brought it all down.

 

If you take it like you should take hollywood movies, based means he contorted it to fit the time and how he saw fit. Obviously it wasn't like this 1999, but it wasn't hell either. Humans couldn't take bliss or suffering, but a nice mixture of both. The Architect regardless would have saw that after the taking down of the 2nd iteration, but the Oracle offered the choice solution which led to the Third Version working.

Which brings me to the question, could the hell or heaven iteration work if the choice was there still?

Of course it wasn't exactly like this one I'm sure every isntance has had a few changes here and there. But to assume that the intire place was a "Hell" is just silly and shows just how much the popular ideas and rumors people had after the trilogy have taken over what was actully said.

Your second question is one I've also wonderd and really all ive come up with is a simple idea. The first version would be a no because of the second reason it failed. No one could keep up with the rules. The second version, maybe. We don't know enough about it's rules other then what it was based off of to decided though.

Roukan wrote:

If you take it like you should take hollywood movies, based means he contorted it to fit the time and how he saw fit. Obviously it wasn't like this 1999, but it wasn't hell either. Humans couldn't take bliss or suffering, but a nice mixture of both. The Architect regardless would have saw that after the taking down of the 2nd iteration, but the Oracle offered the choice solution which led to the Third Version working.

Which brings me to the question, could the hell or heaven iteration work if the choice was there still?

Of course it wasn't exactly like this one I'm sure every isntance has had a few changes here and there. But to assume that the intire place was a "Hell" is just silly and shows just how much the popular ideas and rumors people had after the trilogy have taken over what was actully said.

Your second question is one I've also wonderd and really all ive come up with is a simple idea. The first version would be a no because of the second reason it failed. No one could keep up with the rules. The second version, maybe. We don't know enough about it's rules other then what it was based off of to decided though.

GamiSB wrote:

Roukan wrote:

If you take it like you should take hollywood movies, based means he contorted it to fit the time and how he saw fit. Obviously it wasn't like this 1999, but it wasn't hell either. Humans couldn't take bliss or suffering, but a nice mixture of both. The Architect regardless would have saw that after the taking down of the 2nd iteration, but the Oracle offered the choice solution which led to the Third Version working.

Which brings me to the question, could the hell or heaven iteration work if the choice was there still?

Of course it wasn't exactly like this one I'm sure every isntance has had a few changes here and there. But to assume that the intire place was a "Hell" is just silly and shows just how much the popular ideas and rumors people had after the trilogy have taken over what was actully said.

Your second question is one I've also wonderd and really all ive come up with is a simple idea. The first version would be a no because of the second reason it failed. No one could keep up with the rules. The second version, maybe. We don't know enough about it's rules other then what it was based off of to decided though.

I was under the impression the heaven version didn't work because the AgentSeraphim abused their devastating powers.

On what you said though, Gami, vampires, werewolves, aliens, etc etc, are all born from what the machines would view as distasteful and even grotesque ideas and beliefs - the architect did say "the varying grotesqueries", so he wasn't just referring to war and other nasty behaviour.

Given that every program created has a purpose, then logically it has to follow that the Twins, Cain and Abel, et al were created for some specific reason. And given that they have the traits of ghosts, vampires, werewolves, etc, then logically it must also follow that they were created to "give life" to those beliefs- the problem with their existence being that alot of people DON'T believe in vamps, w'wolves, ghosts, etc.  And right there you have a major problem - it's already been seen that lack of belief in a core tenet of the matrix (as a program) causes a rejection of whatever the subject of belief is - so you get people who can see through walls, hit really hard, basically do things the program shouldn't allow. Whilst not believing in the existence of supernatural beings wouldn't grant you any stuponfucious (penny arcade ftw " width="15" height="15" /> ) powers, it would still prove problematic for the system.

I'm guessing the version of the matrix that encompassed such beings as those didn't just run into problems from the lack of choice, it also ran into problems because rational folk were able to see through some of the aspects of it and see what it was really all about.

@ Roukan: 

Ah, so I wasn't imageing that event. Oh well as I said in the first post MxO CONTRADICTION!!!!!!!. GG Rarebit

But I do notice a lack of explination as to which version she is refering to. V1 mixed Heaven and hell still has a breath in it!

Roukan wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

Roukan wrote:

If you take it like you should take hollywood movies, based means he contorted it to fit the time and how he saw fit. Obviously it wasn't like this 1999, but it wasn't hell either. Humans couldn't take bliss or suffering, but a nice mixture of both. The Architect regardless would have saw that after the taking down of the 2nd iteration, but the Oracle offered the choice solution which led to the Third Version working.

Which brings me to the question, could the hell or heaven iteration work if the choice was there still?

Of course it wasn't exactly like this one I'm sure every isntance has had a few changes here and there. But to assume that the intire place was a "Hell" is just silly and shows just how much the popular ideas and rumors people had after the trilogy have taken over what was actully said.

Your second question is one I've also wonderd and really all ive come up with is a simple idea. The first version would be a no because of the second reason it failed. No one could keep up with the rules. The second version, maybe. We don't know enough about it's rules other then what it was based off of to decided though.

I was under the impression the heaven version didn't work because the AgentSeraphim abused their devastating powers.

Actually the First Matrix didn't work because Humans couldn't accept it, it wasn't "real"

From The Matrix:

Agent Smith: Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this: the peak of your civilization.

Its both as I explained earlier. Lack of accepting (see Smith and Architect quote) mixed with lack of obeying (Malphas event).

And *CENSORED* triple post. Sorry about that.

@ Roukan: 

Ah, so I wasn't imageing that event. Oh well as I said in the first post MxO CONTRADICTION!!!!!!!. GG Rarebit

But I do notice a lack of explination as to which version she is refering to. V1 mixed Heaven and hell still has a breath in it!