I would like to see this proven. I've seen no so-called Machinist defy that which they have been told to do or think in quite a time. And when they are told to think something which defies their previous point, they immediately defect to the new way of thinking.

Case in point, the incident of one Mr. Navin Manohar - a bluepill and a potential. Mr. Manohar was deceived, and his life was taken by Machinists in order to craft a replacement with a tracking device as a measure of hindering Zion operations. Prior to this incident, Machinists cried out about bluepills being killed by accident and by those killed in some means attempting to gain information or strategic advantages. Some went as far as to condemn anyone for attempting to fight back against agents, and said some still hold these beliefs. Yet, following the Manohar incident, suddenly the sacrifice "for the greater good" was viewed as perfectly acceptable by the Machine (at this point, the Machinists cease to be).

You want to prove you have free thought? Exercise it. Do you want a war with Zion? Tell them to end it - they hold the power. Have you ever questioned why it is being perpetuated, knowing that we have not been able to make any sort of counterattack, and, over the course of several months have done nothing to destabalize the Matrix? Ask them why the war was started, and when they respond "dual paranoia," ask them why it has not yet been ended as their fears have been refuted. Moreover, ask them what they want from this war. Ask them what they believe they will accomplish by destroying Zion that they have not already accomplished.

I'm doing no such thing. I'm showing you the reality of the situation you and every Machinst is in. It's the same with every Zion and EPN and Merv and Exile. This isn't some sterotype but a simple fact that if you are in support one group you are saying that no matter what that group does you have no problems with it. You can't say that you have never helped the Cypheites when every EPN or Zion you kill is a help to them.  Because even while you physicaly may not have been there you are still supporting the people that were.

I will say it again by suporting the Machine you support everything the Machine stands for which includes the Cypherites.

Your ideology is the only thing that differs, and there is little difference, even, at that. And, even though you may express your ideology, you consent to act under theirs. Put simply, you say one thing and do another. All I've heard are empty words, and all I've seen is the killings. And yes, I am generalizing. It suits my focus to talk about the broader Machinist population in this situation, anyhow.

Most importantly, however, it must be restated that you are both otherwise executing, if not the same, then similar means to a common end - the cessation of awakenings within the Matrix. This end is viewed as Cypheristic. And so long as Machinists are acting towards this goal in accordance with Machine edict, I do not see them as Machinists whatsoever.

GamiSB wrote:

I'm doing no such thing. I'm showing you the reality of the situation you and every Machinst is in. It's the same with every Zion and EPN and Merv and Exile. This isn't some sterotype but a simple fact that if you are in support one group you are saying that no matter what that group does you have no problems with it. You can't say that you have never helped the Cypheites when every EPN or Zion you kill is a help to them.  Because even while you physicaly may not have been there you are still supporting the people that were.

I will say it again by suporting the Machine you support everything the Machine stands for which includes the Cypherites.

You're showing us the reality of the situation as you see it. It's as simple as that, because what we've been saying is the reality of the situation as we see it. The difference is that we're the ones that have lived through all this, we're the ones who've made the decisions we're talking about, and done the things we're talking about. You're viewing it from a distance, interpreting the situation without knowing what's going on in our heads. And when we tell you why we do things, when we tell you what's going on in our heads, you dismiss it.

I present to you one more argument in a desperate hope to get you to change your one-track mind. Let's go back God knows how many centuries, to the era before the War. The United States was heavily into invading countries in the name of freedom, with the supposed aim of stopping terrorism. Many people supported these moves, but equally many people abhorred their nation's actions. But the latter still lived in the US; they still paid their taxes, they did their jobs to support their economy, their country, their government. By your argument, they were supporting the United States' actions in foreign lands. I think they'd take offense to that suggestion.

And I'm not going to answer your other post. I don't see the point. My history should speak for itself, but as you seem to be ignoring it - even having the sheer gall to suggest I'm lying about the friends I've lost to the Cypherite plague - there's no point in me further emphasising it.

Your heads are biased and only see what they want to see. The only way to accuratly document anything is to have a neutral group from poutside of the conflict to do it. It's why jurys are made up of neutral parties who don't know the person on trail and why the crediablity of only one witness is never enough to base a verdict on. I've heard and been hearing your side of the story but your the only one saying it and no one else seems to remember a time when you acttuly did as you claimed to have been doing all along.

((Your the only one to give crediablity to your RP, the story isn't supporting it and the devs are not supporting it, thus it aint canon. Were one chapter into the war and two chapters into the revelation about the Cypherite org and not once has the story mentiond a Cypherite ship/operation being hinderd or attack by a Machine.))

As for your "war on terrorism" argument yes, those that did pay their taxes did, did stay in the US, and did support their goverment, supported the war. Vebaly they could cry to high heaven "I hate this war" but it doens't change that theyare still giveing money for the war, still elected people that were for the war, and did nothing to remove those people or replace them with people that were aginst the war. "Write your congressmen" remember? America was founded on democracy, don't like something, petition to change it and boycot it. Its leaders were not dictators and its constitution made it so the people had power to influence their govement. Sacrifices have to be made when you want to change something and typically the bigger that something is the more the the people wanting to change it is going to suffer.

So you have two options, either you can stay in your comfy shell and keep on chanting your mantra twice a day, or you and every other "Anti-cyph" can actully stand up for yourselves and take some action to get things changed. I know you hate the Cypherites, I know that all the Anti-Cypherites hate them. But your not helping or changeing anything by still supporting the people that are supporting them. You couldn't claim to support George W. Bush without supporting the war. What makes this any diffrent?

Just because through some actions, that are required to achieve a goal, those same actions help another organisation with their goal does in no way mean that we support them and their ideals. Support would be to actively make sure that they are able to achieve their goals and ideals.

I have major problems with their attitude and methods, yet still regard them as a temporary necessity, and do not go out of my way to make sure that their goals are met. If their goals and mine coincide then I shall only work in conjunction, as I have pointed out before, as longs as their methods are reasonable to the required task.

You are telling it how it is from your biased perception, you may believe it, but that does not make it true.

Ever since the exposure of Cryptos' overwritten minds the Cyphs have become mercenarys meaning that they do what they want and if the Machines want something they pay for it. A purchase of services is not support. Except in monitary regards. If the Machines still supported the original idea of Cyphs, then they would have just 'manufactured' another leader, re-overwritten Cryotos' mind or at the very least, neglect to release the information about the inability to return to the pods.

True but these are not just "some" actions. These are "all" of the actions. Name me one thing the Machine has done in this war and before it that was not in the favor of the Cypherites. You can't because their are none. Second you can't claim like so amny of you have to NEVER have worked or helped a Cypherite. You shoot someone a Cypherite was shooting at you helped them. You take out someone they wanted taken out you helped them. You stop an awakening you helped them. You stop a Zion operation you've helped them. See the pattern? You HELPED them.

I understand that just because I believe something doesnt make it true but all I hear in return is your same baised opinions reworded to try and eliminate my examples but still you have yet to show the error in my claim that by supporting the Machine you are supporting the Cypherites. You can hardly claim the Cypherites to be mercs when the only ones paying them are the Machines. They aren't guns for hire, they are just guns. A black ops group that been liberated but still run but its former goverment.

Before the Truce, the Cypherites are what the Machinists are now currently. In the War now, we are the "special forces" so to speak. Getting to places where the Machines and the Machinists cant (or in the Machinist case, WONT go to because they are scaredy cats), and we differ from the Machines and Machinists in one big regard. We dont see the Blue Pills as a power supply, we seem them as living beings and the future of humanity. So we do everything in our power to ensure that they and the world they live in, are safe. I don't know why some Machinists still hate us with a passion... we are on the same side of the war, we have given you MAJOR victories in the war... its time to get with the times. The Cyphs are here, and we are here to stay. We are your allies, get used to it.

You can hardly claim the Cypherites to be mercs when the only ones paying them are the Machines. They aren't guns for hire, they are just guns. A black ops group that been liberated but still run but its former goverment.

I don't care what you make of this, but I refuse to argue any further. I mean, Gami just made himself look absurd by suggesting he is a neutral, outside observer! That actually gave me a few laughs, thanks. He suggested 'no one' can remember what I've done, despite there only being about five people actively talking in this thread, and then suggested one option we have is to 'stand up for [our]selves and take some action to get things changed', to which I can only respond by repeating myself AGAIN! I won't.

Don't bother replying to this, 'cos I'm not gonna answer back.

I'm not a neutral watcher to a Machine and Cypherite conflict? Oh of course I foroget that being an EPN I must be biased towards one side and couldn't possibly not care what you do but only be makeing an observation about the conflict. Also its only you talking about what you have done. The other four don't seem to mention you at all.

((Please stop useing your own RP as your only argument. It's not offcal, it isn't DEV backed, and it aint canon. If thats all you've got to defend your side other then insults then I think this is over. GG son))

GamiSB wrote:

You can hardly claim the Cypherites to be mercs when the only ones paying them are the Machines. They aren't guns for hire, they are just guns. A black ops group that been liberated but still run but its former goverment.

Veil has been getting a payoff from the Machines for a fair while now, Cryptos offered his services but only if he could remove some data from the archive first. Blatent paying for services, they are mercenary's, hired guns. They might still do the task if the Machines didn't pay them, but the Machines would get no benefit. If there were another Org which could offer the Cyphs more than what the Machines could, you'd probably see them work for them, as long as they can get their fill of violence in.

So by that logic you are  just a merc to then? Your getting paid for your services are you not? It's called a job and its apart of working for someone. The Cypherites WORK for the Machine and inreturn are looked out for and supplied. Stop assumeing and come up with some sort of fact next time because we've seen them pissed off beyond all reason at the Machine and they still went back. That says something right there and I'll let you try and figure it out.

Ah now we have something other then "he said she said". I conceed to the fact then that the Cypherite organization is its own org that gives a helping hand to the Machine when needed. But this doesn't change fact that your still supporting them by allowing the Machine to pay them for their services. As Ebola said you are still on the same side and you are both still helping each other wether you know it or not. Accept the fact and stop kidding yourself that by you allowing this to continue you are not giveing the Machine any reason to keep going to them for help.

Support the Machine you support the Cypherites. Simple as that.

So... you're Cypherites who work for free, or, otherwise, a severely reduced wage?

Somehow, this doesn't bring you any higher than them in my eyes.

((Please stop useing your own RP as your only argument. It's not offcal, it isn't DEV backed, and it aint canon. If thats all you've got to defend your side other then insults then I think this is over. GG son))

GamiSB wrote:

((Please stop useing your own RP as your only argument. It's not offcal, it isn't DEV backed, and it aint canon. If thats all you've got to defend your side other then insults then I think this is over. GG son))

(( I guess I can still respond OOC and not break my word.

You really are a piece of work Gami, you know that? I've been using my RP to defend myself. Me. My own self. Not the Machinists; me. When I've defended the Machinists I've cited their RP, their behaviour. I've been talking primarily about Procurator ever since Shi+Xin+Feng turned the argument towards him rather than Machinists as a whole. And you say I can't use my RP to defend myself? I can't use it to define my character? Well, let's take a look...

Procurator wears black clothes. That's a statement about my character, and it's my RP. But wait! Procurator's dress sense hasn't been mentioned by the Devs, it doesn't feature in the story. Oh no! So it can't be true!

Go and pay a visit to Procurator in Tabor West. D'you know what you'll find there? Him wearing black clothes. H'mm, must be an illusion. </sarcasm>

What you're suggesting is that we can't define our own characters. Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds? I say Procurator hates Cypherites. I ask you to look at his history, where he's been very vocal in his stance against them, and his in-game actions where he's done his utmost to hurt them physically despite the game mechanics not making it easy. Then you insist that because it isn't canon, because the Dev's haven't mentioned it, it can't be true.

Procurator is my creation, I define him as I like. And nothing he's done has contradicted any part of the story. Has Agent Gray ever said 'Procurator enjoys working with the Cypherites, and has never been attacked by them'? No, he hasn't. And I'm not pretentious enough to assume Rarebit reads my stories or follows Procurator's development as a character. But when we're talking about my character, what I say goes.

If someone wants to besmirch someone else's character, it has to be IC, and they have to back up their IC arguments with IC evidence. In this case the evidence that Procurator hates the Cypherites vastly outweighs any suggestion that he doesn't. No, I haven't posted the evidence in this thread, but I've referred to it. Go and read it yourself - it's not hard to find. It must be in almost every Live Events thread that Procurator's posted in. Your character can be as absurdly dogmatic as he wants, but don't you dare take it OOC again unless there's a breach of continuity that needs to be addressed. ))

((He may be your creation but the story isn't and when you plug him into that story you have to play by its rules. He is apart of a world that is not in any way yours. The rules of the Matrix story limits anything your character does and just because you write in your story for him doesn't mean any of that ever happend. Remember reinsertion? Remember how alot of people had it in their stories and used it as proof that people were pluged back in or how they were pluged back in at some point? Then remember how Gray came along and said resertion wasn't real. This created a major contridiction between the players story and the offical story and when the two collide guess which one is left standing. Clothing, faction position, attitude, belifes, these are things that the story and game can support. History, actions in the real, murder outside of the Matrix, these are things it doesnt.

I'm not sudgesting you can't define your characters. I'm saying that you can only do it in ways the story and game allows. The story doesn't support Anti-Cypherite Machinst. The games machanics dont support them. So when your RP and what the story is saying collide on an issue your RP is null and void.))

((He may be your creation but the story isn't and when you plug him into that story you have to play by its rules. He is apart of a world that is not in any way yours. The rules of the Matrix story limits anything your character does and just because you write in your story for him doesn't mean any of that ever happend. Remember reinsertion? Remember how alot of people had it in their stories and used it as proof that people were pluged back in or how they were pluged back in at some point? Then remember how Gray came along and said resertion wasn't real. This created a major contridiction between the players story and the offical story and when the two collide guess which one is left standing. Clothing, faction position, attitude, belifes, these are things that the story and game can support. History, actions in the real, murder outside of the Matrix, these are things it doesnt.

I'm not sudgesting you can't define your characters. I'm saying that you can only do it in ways the story and game allows. The story doesn't support Anti-Cypherite Machinst. The games machanics dont support them. So when your RP and what the story is saying collide on an issue your RP is null and void.))