[8.3.5] "All my work will be lost" - Syntax - 11/14/07

**Procurator**

It's called law enforcement. We're protecting the Machines' territory. Zionites are trespassing out of spite and sheer pig-headed bravado, and we're responding with the force we threatened to use. The definition of murder is up for debate, but the way I see it is as this is a war, it's wholly justified.

What are these deaths of Bluepills you mentioned? I'm intrigued. You'd better not be talking about Manohar again: I've already given my views on that.

**Neoteny**

And do you never question the law you enforce? Do you take it for granted that all non-Machine affiliated redpills should be removed from the System? Do you never question why it is that they want you to remove them? Have you even considered the fact that the majority of the veteran Zionites who stayed behind were assisting in routine extractions of the one percent?

As for the bluepills - you must realize that for every extraction point you shut down and bust, for every redpill participating in an extraction you murder, there is a bluepill, a potential involved. When agents appear on an extraction site where a potential has chosen the red pill, what do you think happens to him after the Agents are finished with the Zionite crew? When there was a flaw with the red pill, and the Machines exploited it and traced numerous newly-freed redpills to their hovercraft, what do you think they did with them?

Or are the newly awakened just as easily disposable as the veterans? One who has just made his choice about the Matrix, and has not even been given the "grace of defection" you Machinists have been granted, the same "grace" Agents have offered me during this time of war. And what if this man were to accept it? Does it still justify their killing in your eyes?

What of the list of potentials seized by the Machines? Do you believe that those on the list who were tracked down - be it to an extraction site or to their own homes and businesses - were let alone?

And of course, there is the case of Mr. Navin Manohar, which shall be mentioned only in passing, as it has already been beaten beyond death. Do you really believe he was the only one?

For a war launched on the possibility of Zion overstepping its bounds and soldiered by those who believe that the Machines are doing what is necessary to protect the greater good, the bluepill population of the Matrix, over their greatest "foe," the redpills of the Real, it seems to me that the Machines and Machinists have racked up the most kills on either side - red or blue, while Zion has merely attempted to do all she can to continue freeing minds as she intended to, and to protect her children as they are assaulted during this noble task.

It is this that leads me to ask, what is the purpose of the war? Zion has no offensive capabilities in the Real or in the Matrix and Zion has been unable to go beyond awakening the one percent of bluepills who reject the simulated reality of the Matrix, and were not granted for a moment the benefit of the doubt in the matter. The goals of Zion in this war are survival and to continue awakening the minds of the Matrix which beg to be awakened.

What are the goals of the Machine? Of the Machinist? Total domination? The cessation of awakenings? The destruction of Zion?

Why?

**Procurator**

*Raises an eyebrow.*

Crikey, you didn't half make a load of stuff up there. If a Bluepill has already taken a red pill, I can't say what happens to them - but they certainly aren't a Bluepill anymore at that point, so are irrelevant to the argument at hand. The red pills that were exploited, to my knowledge, had no ill effects on the person taking them. Only Manohar was killed and replaced (senselessly) in order to evaluate the pills' success. And let's not forget that Zion killed a Bluepill as well testing their defective new pill.

The point is that Zion isn't allowed to extract anyone. The routine 1%? That's not routine - it's what was permitted by the Truce! Now that the truce is over, no extractions are to take place! None. Some of the veterans who were killed were indeed extracting people, a task which has been outlawed. Think of it as the Matrix being under martial law: they broke the law, they were killed. No, it's not nice, but all they have to do to avoid death (at least until the Machines make it into New Zion, but I'm not a big supporter of that idea) is stay out of the Matrix.

As for the list of potentials: if that was used at all it was to monitor the potentials until Zionites made contact with them. When they did, Machine forces swoop in and stop the extraction. There's no reason for the Bluepills in question to be harmed.

I do question the ultimate point of this war. But the fact is that the Machines have denied further extractions. As a Machinist it is my duty to see their law enforced. And not as a blind follower, but as someone who truly believes that the Machines are the best side to be on. I may not agree with the war, I may not agree with the intended destruction of New Zion or even Zion, but it's not enough reason to join anyone else: the Mervs are entirely self-serving, and Zion's still misguided. The Machines make mistakes, but the only way to teach them the error of their ways is to stay with them. And to do so I must uphold their law and see that their threats are followed through.

**Stack**

You seem to have misinterpreted both the terms of the truce and the necessities involved without it, Procurator. The Architect never mentioned anything about a 1% allowed to be freed--he said that 99% of the people in the Matrix accept the simulation, but only as long as the choice is provided and the means of extraction allowed through Zion. The difference is that before the Truce, extractions were thought to be against the wishes of the Machines, but instead they were a necessary part of the Cycle of The One, though one that the Machines kept to a minimum.

Under the Truce, Zion was allowed to free "those that want out." Those were the terms. We were never fenced into any 1% limit. By eliminating the means of choice entirely, we can expect to see the system suffer a severe loss of "crops," as you might so coldly call them, as people reject the system on their own through unassisted lethal self-substantiation.

Either means results in loss of life. It only depends on whether we leave you to deal with the surpluss of recycling material and subsequent diminishing power supply, or we stay and you kill us mindlessly as we try to do what we are meant to do.

**Procurator** · 11/17/2007 05:21:52

You're right on some aspects. 1% may reject the system, but the terms of the Truce allowed those 1% - and only those 1% - to be freed by Zion. Now that awakenings are no longer allowed, Zion may not participate in this extraction process. So they either die in their pods (as they've done since the Matrix began), or are extracted by the Machines for whatever purpose. They might just as well join the ranks of the Machinists, but more likely than not they don't accept the reality of the world and die.

I say again: Zion was restricted to 1%. That's why the Cypherite organisation was formed: to hinder Zion's efforts in extracting more. (Of course, they went about it the wrong way, but that's a different issue.) Either Gray or Pace reinforced this concept, but I'm going to have to look that up in my logs.

Diminishing power supply? The Matrix has been run like this, with a few minds rejecting the system, for centuries. It's not a problem for the Machines.

Zion isn't meant to do anything any more. You're not allowed to extract anyone - end of.

Edit: Ah! I've found the quote.

Agent Gray: Operative, the Zionite known as Cryptos was overwritten by a Machine program years ago. This program's purpose was to form a group of humans dedicated to the task of preventing Zion from destabilizing the System by awakening more than the allotted 1% of the Matrix' population. At the beginning of the truce period, it was difficult for us to control these excess awakenings without causing an overreaction in Zion.

**GoDGiVeR** · 11/17/2007 10:49:31

Procurator wrote:

Agent Gray: Operative, the Zionite known as Cryptos was overwritten by a Machine program years ago. This program's purpose was to form a group of humans dedicated to the task of preventing Zion from destabilizing the System by awakening more than the allotted 1% of the Matrix' population. At the beginning of the truce period, it was difficult for us to control these excess awakenings without causing an overreaction in Zion.

As far as I can take from your quote and the truce's regulations (which are actually quite unknown), the 1% is only a Machine made virtual number, not a regulation they can enforce, because it's a fictional number they set for themselves. Hence why the Cypherites were established, because if Zion wasn't allowed to free more than these 1% the Machines could just have called it a day and declared war sooner. The Machines just defended their own virtual regulations that had no meaning within the truce.

What was it Morpheus said? The Oracle is a guideline, she helps you find your way... something like that. It's the same as for the 1%, it's a guideline that has strict meaning within the Machine organisation, but has no overall meaning within in the truce. If you want to follow that guideline, do it. If you don't, the truce won't be invalidated anyways. Well, if there still was a truce, that is.

-DD

**Cykosis**

Why is everyone always arguing the same points over and over again? We see the same type of conversations everytime people are killed by one group and the reasons why. Frankly, I could give a *CENSORED* about the Matrix. I would prefer that we leave it the hell alone and that New Zion is allowed to flourish. But no, the Machines must have their god damned control over us. Well screw them and screw you. As one of your colleagues, Vinia, is so apt to point out, this is supposed to be a war. What I see however, is both sides posturing without producing a lot of results. The biggest action has obviously got to be the takeover of Zion, but other than our veterans' being taken out, it hasn't scratched us. Zion has massed the largest amount of forces, hovercrafts, and hoverbarges than ever before, but what is it doing? Where are the counterattacks? This reminds me of a wrestling match that you would see on television in the Matrix. All yelling and empty threats until you see them just going through the motions of fighting each other. War is most commonly ugly in all aspects. Machines' and Zion have been treating this with kid gloves this entire time. The Machines obviously have their focus on matters other than this "war", while Zion Command seems to just be playing an electronic version of throwing wastepaper in a bucket to kill time hoping for a miracle.

((This game would be sooo much more glorious if we could actually plan out attacks against specific locations of value to each side...oh well.))

-Cykosis

Croesis

The only murder in war is that of innocent civilians. This man was not a civilian, seeing as your innocent civilians can't enter the simulation, he was a Zion operative and a veteran who should have known better. His death was down to his stupidity and the ignorance of Zion.

**CPT_Starschwar**

I've done a lot of thinking on the subject...

I knew what I was doing when I killed him. I don't enjoy killing. Never have, never will. That said...

I am sorry that he had to die. But if I hadn't killed him, he'd have been killed by the Agents. Ultimately, my actions changed nothing. He was given ample time to leave the Matrix and get his signal reconfigured - why Colt waited so *CENSORED* long to extract him is a mystery to me.

I want peace with Zion. But I'm not going to just stand by and let the likes of Viellard and Wright carry on their twisted experiments and jeopardize system stability either.

I still consider many in Zion to be my friends... even if they think otherwise. Untill this war is over, its just something I'm going to have to live with.

**GoDGiVeR**

kou_urake wrote:

I've done a lot of thinking on the subject...
I knew what I was doing when I killed him. I don't enjoy killing. Never have, never will. That said...
I am sorry that he had to die. But if I hadn't killed him, he'd have been killed by the Agents. Ultimately, my actions changed nothing. He was given ample time to leave the Matrix and get his signal reconfigured - why Colt waited so *CENSORED* long to extract him is a mystery to me.
I want peace with Zion. But I'm not going to just stand by and let the likes of Viellard and Wright carry on their twisted experiments and jeopardize system stability either.
I still consider many in Zion to be my friends... even if they think otherwise. Untill this war is over, its just something I'm going to have to live with.

And there I thought you'd still weep over it. We still need a talk, though. 's been such a long time since we had one, especially since I'm practically a wanted man now because of the war, eh?

-GG

**CPT_Starschwar**

Oh, I'm still not over it. I doubt I ever will be. But yes, we really should have a talk.

**Neoteny**

kou_urake wrote:

I am sorry that he had to die. But if I hadn't killed him, he'd have been killed by the Agents.

And how do you know this? From what I saw, there were no agents in sight - it looked like he was retreating form the agents, looking for another exit.

My earlier concern about the purpose of the war remains, however, as all I've seen from it is the death of red and blue pills - and all killings being committed by the Machine side of things. The question that remains unaddressed is the only one that matters - the why. Why start a war on these false pretenses? Why not end it now, as it is clearer than ever that the pretenses were, and are false? Why is it that the only clear and ultimate goal of the Machine war, thusfar is the cessation of awakenings and the destruction of any and all Zionites? Why do the Machinists support this cause without any further information?

It has become apparent to me that this is not a war in the least, but a senseless genocide. One we are trying to survive, one we are trying to save others from.

We can see that we've made no offensives, no excess awakenings during this time. Surely they can, too? And yet it is not done, the war, is still seen as unwon. Why?

**Coro**

Let's cut the BS for once. There can be no excuse of "I was only following orders" nor "He shouldn't have been in The Matrix in the first place".

If I may, I'd like to quickly review some past events:

1. The Matrix attempts to balance the equation of a human anomoly. It produces a rogue Agent which completely overruns The Matrix. The Machines are left flapping as they lose all control of their power supply.

2. Neo bails-out The Machines and neutralises Smith (at severe cost to himself). As a trade-off for the assistance offered, Zion is left alone, to carry on without the constant threat of extermination. Zionites are also given some privileges within the simulation.

3. Zion starts to fortify its postion and address its obvious vulnerabilities: admittedly, not the most fanastically well-handled political incident. The Machines get twitchy that Zion no longer has "its throat exposed". It fears the worst, decides against negotiation and resolves to declare War as a pre-emptive measure to a potential threat.

4. The rescue of The Machines by Humankind (see 2.) is completely forgotten. The Truce embodies a single compassionate act which shows that all sentient life can co-exist in mutual benevolence. Even Zion seems to be ignorant to the fact that the most tangible result of Neo's self-sacrifice has been discarded, without a second thought.

Pacifists of The Matrix unite! We should be stronger-minded than this. We do not go to War solely at the behest of our masters, nor do they have authority to anull The Truce that was so dearly earnt.

**GoDGiVeR**

kou_urake wrote:

Oh, I'm still not over it. I doubt I ever will be. But yes, we really should have a talk.

I doubt I said anything useful, as always, but it was nice talking face to face with you again, Star.

-GG

**Illyria22**

To be upset that this Zion operative is dead is like being upset that someone trespassing on private property or in a sensitive area (a government building, the White House, etc.) was shot by the police. He entered an area he wasn't supposed to be in during a time of war; what do you think was going to happen? If I went to New Zion, I would expect to be shot dead the instant I was seen, no matter what my actual intentions for being there might be...therefore, I wouldn't trespass in New Zion! Zionites need to be bright enough to reverse this scenario and *not* trespass in the Matrix.

Illyria