[8.3.3] Choose, man! - Vector - 10/24/07

**Procurator**

I'd say that if everyone who believes in an idea dies, the idea dies with them... for a time. If the idea was formed once, it may be formed again.

Taking Zion as an example again, Zion was destroyed, but it did the same thing six times in a row (no doubt with some small variances, sure, but nothing significantly different). The Machines orchestrated events so that the city's population would hold the same beliefs and have the same ideas with each iteration.

Pyraci

Reeverbs wrote:

Morpheus is going Cyph! WOOHOO!!!
Bring out the champagne!

*gets wasted*

Wouldn't celebrate too soon there, mate.

Croesus wrote:

Garu wrote:
As long as there are free minds, there will always be ideas. Zion has been annihilated several times, yet it rises from the ashes to oppose the system every time.

Your right, it has, but that was because the Machines required it to be reformed, hence the One having to chose a few people after returning to the source to re-build Zion

To a point, but not completely. Even if Zion were to be completely decimated and the cycle of control , there are people still born inside that will reject this place. There are people, like Michael, that will wake themselves from it. An idea will exist as long as there is someone (human or sentient), that takes a certain point of view of the world.

A free mind refuses to remain enslaved whether the Machine wants it to or not.

**Garu**

Croesus wrote:

Garu wrote:
As long as there are free minds, there will always be ideas. Zion has been annihilated several times, yet it rises from the ashes to oppose the system every time.

Your right, it has, but that was because the Machines required it to be reformed, hence the One having to chose a few people after returning to the source to re-build Zion

Quite right. Though each time it becomes populated by citizens who all believe in the same idea as their predecessors despite having never met them. Today there will be someone born into this world who shares the same ideas as myself or someone who believes as Zion does.

Our bodies can be broken but the ideas we have live on through others until the end of time or until no one believes in it anymore.

**GoDGiVeR**

Ideas cannot die for the simple reason that others will have the same ideas which people had before them, even if it's in another form.

You can kill the people, but ideas are bulletproof, as the saying goes. There'll always be similar ideas as long as people have ideas.

Croesis · 10/26/2007 09:02:38

Good points by all! SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=

I guess I was trying to say that the same exact ideas from a man do not necessarily get passed on, but ideas born of of necessity and situation are generally very similar.

[EDIT]

Garu wrote:

Our bodies can be broken but the ideas we have live on through others until the end of time or until no one believes in it anymore.

Hehe, this is what I originally said in a round about way! This is what started the thread going of on the tangent its on now! I do hope we're not gonna be going around in circles!

**Garu**

Croesus wrote:

Good points by all! " width="15" height="15" /> I guess I was trying to say that the same exact ideas from a man do not necessarily get passed on, but ideas born of of necessity and situation are generally very similar.

I'm inclined to agree. Ideas can change as some people embrace them differently than others. But the core of the idea itself tends to survive.

**Rarebit**

cloudwolf wrote:

(( Wrong chapter tag, pm sent. ))

Hmwah? Oh. Numbers...

Rosincrantz

Rarebit wrote:

cloudwolf wrote:
(( Wrong chapter tag, pm sent. ))
Hmwah? Oh. Numbers...

((*Explodes into a fit of giggles.* Rarebit+Numbers=No?))

**Nicho**

Procurator wrote:

I'd say that if everyone who believes in an idea dies, the idea dies with them... for a time. If the idea was formed once, it may be formed again.

Taking Zion as an example again, Zion was destroyed, but it did the same thing six times in a row (no doubt with some small variances, sure, but nothing significantly different). The Machines orchestrated events so that the city's population would hold the same beliefs and have the same ideas with each iteration.

((I think this is true in a OOC aspect, but while IC it is different.))

Those that do not understand an idea most of the time do not understand the everlasting life of it. Seeing is not always believing. Faith is beliefs true strength.

**CPT_Starschwar**

Quite a team, eh? A man with the mind of a machine, a machine with the mind of a man. And together, they may have brought about an end to this conflict. Poetic, really.

Croesis

I think it's a little to early to celebrate... Zion has got a lot of fight left in them yet, yes the most experienced operatives are getting taken out of the equation but that leaves room for the more inexperienced, and while that may work in our favour also, it could just make them more tenacious, trying unanticipated plans etc.....

Pyraci

Croesus wrote:

I think it's a little to early to celebrate... Zion has got a lot of fight left in them yet, yes the most experienced operatives are getting taken out of the equation but that leaves room for the more inexperienced, and while that may work in our favour also, it could just make them more tenacious, trying unanticipated plans etc.....

Exactly what we'd need, should our lives be threatened again.

**Garu**

Any celebration on my part would be very reluctant. Though I do not agree with Zion's policies I can hardly revel in their death.

**ShiXinFeng**

Morpheus the man was strong, both in will and intellect. He was not easily swayed nor manipulated.

Morpheus the program is indecisive, unproven, and unprepared. I have little faith in his ability to make sound decisions for the betterment of the human race.

Perhaps this program should be neutralized. . .permanently.

**Illyria22**

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Morpheus the man was strong, both in will and intellect. He was not easily swayed nor manipulated.
Morpheus the program is indecisive, unproven, and unprepared. I have little faith in his ability to make sound decisions for the betterment of the human race.
Perhaps this program should be neutralized. . .permanently.

Morpheus the man was strong because his beliefs drifted into fanaticism. He was not easily swayed or manipulated by facts or reason. In the end, his fixation on the return of a corpse (not peace, or freedom for humanity) led not only to his own death, but to the deaths of many bluepills through his codebombs.

Morpheus the program doesn't seem to have these faults, at least not yet. He is trying to learn -- he knows he doesn't know everything, unlike the fanatic who believed there was nothing left to learn.

Illyria

PS: I did predict that Zion/EPN would want the sim deleted if he didn't help them, no matter what the reasoning was behind it.