Pyraci wrote:

...I see no reason to respect theirs.

It's that same train of thought that got so many senior Zionite operatives killed this past week. You might consider respecting the threat, even if you won't back away from it.

That would never stop anything. They declared us to have broken the Truce - they destroyed Zion, and now they're doing all they can to kill as many of our operatives as possible. You really think staying out of the Matrix would solve this problem? Maybe it'll help our vets stay alive until they get their jacks reconfigured, but other than that, I fail to see any sign of the Machines halting attacks of any sort simply because Zion has withdrawn from the Matrix.

They started a war which they intend to end in only one way - the eradication of Zion.

In the mean time, I'll not stand by and let them keep the truth from being told, freedom granted to those who seek it. In the words of Martin Luther King Jr., "An unjust law is no law at all," and I've no problem with defying laws determined to perpetuate the injustice done to the human power plant, denying them their birthright to life, liberty, and the pursuit of true happiness.

We'll keep the vets out for now. Not because we're respecting the law of the Machine. *CENSORED* the Machine. But because we're doing what we've always set out to do - save lives. And I can guarantee you that those vets'll be back out there as soon as they can to continue that job, to satisfy not only their duty as a soldier of Zion, but their duty as a human being.

In the mean time, it seems as though I might as well start giving the Machinists a taste of the Cypherite routine, too. Maybe it's not too late for them to realize what they're becoming if we jump far ahead enough that they'll snap back.

...even with the knowledge that it was against the truce.

So far, Zion has acted weak, and pacifistic compared to the ways that it really could.  I say we unleash the dogs of war and teach you the horrors that are really possible.  Make no mistake, we can stress your precious system and burn it down around you.  An example may have to be made so that the Machines are forced to come back to true negotiations to realize that you need us to play nice.

I want peace.  I hate war and truly wish that Machines and Humans can put aside their differences to start tackling the truly important problems we face.  I want to be able to see the real Sun sometime throughout my life.  Unfortunately, with attitudes such as yours, that may never happen.

their duty as a human being.

In the mean time, it seems as though I might as well start giving the Machinists a taste of the Cypherite routine, too. Maybe it's not too late for them to realize what they're becoming if we jump far ahead enough that they'll snap back.

And so the wheel continues to turn powered by presumptions, distrust and paranoia.  This isn't getting us anywhere.

Keep in mind that the lives you attempt to save are already safe.  It is because you enter and try to remove them that their lives become endangered.  It is unnecessary to risk yours and theirs.  They will not come to harm.  Let them be while things are as chaotic as they are.  Once peace, or some form of it, returns then you can retrieve them.

There is nothing more permanent than death.  There is no truth or liberty that can bring you back to us. 

((...RP post to come later ...))

Croesus wrote:

...even with the knowledge that it was against the truce.

And your argument dies, right there.

And so the wheel continues to turn powered by presumptions, distrust and paranoia.  This isn't getting us anywhere.

Keep in mind that the lives you attempt to save are already safe.  It is because you enter and try to remove them that their lives become endangered.  It is unnecessary to risk yours and theirs.  They will not come to harm.  Let them be while things are as chaotic as they are.  Once peace, or some form of it, returns then you can retrieve them.

There is nothing more permanent than death.  There is no truth or liberty that can bring you back to us. 

There was never any evidence that the Machines wanted to attack and wipe out Zion whatsoever. The Machines were watching, possibly out of interest in the species, probably to try to make sure that their own interests weren't being threatened.

Pyraci wrote:

...I see no reason to respect theirs.

It's that same train of thought that got so many senior Zionite operatives killed this past week. You might consider respecting the threat, even if you won't back away from it.

Oh yes, the whole lay down our arms and be welcomed in open arms by the Machines' argument.  I've heard it before and I believe not a single word of it.  Let's look at some facts here.  The Machines' have control over most of the planet and are generally the organization with the most power.  The Matrix is their own creation and they are the ones maintaining it, which means they hold most of the power in that respect.  In the Real, it is the swarms of sentinels that our hovercraft must avoid in order to travel.  If the Machines truly wanted peace, they would have to be the ones who extended their arms for it.  I do not call telling your enemy to lay down their weapons and comply, a gesture of peace.  Zion cannot communicate with the "ultimatums" it receives.  There is no verbal exchange in this.  It is either do it this way, or die.

Yes, we are at war.  I have already said this, but I do not know if you truly realize what it means to be in war.  So far, Zion has acted weak, and pacifistic compared to the ways that it really could.  I say we unleash the dogs of war and teach you the horrors that are really possible.  Make no mistake, we can stress your precious system and burn it down around you.  An example may have to be made so that the Machines are forced to come back to true negotiations to realize that you need us to play nice.

I want peace.  I hate war and truly wish that Machines and Humans can put aside their differences to start tackling the truly important problems we face.  I want to be able to see the real Sun sometime throughout my life.  Unfortunately, with attitudes such as yours, that may never happen.

Speaking of distrust and paranoia, this same argument could be used against the Machine.

Neoteny wrote:

their duty as a human being.

Would you care to define this, please?

Neoteny wrote:

In the mean time, it seems as though I might as well start giving the Machinists a taste of the Cypherite routine, too. Maybe it's not too late for them to realize what they're becoming if we jump far ahead enough that they'll snap back.

You're still comparing us to Cypherites, eh? Painting us with one brush doesn't do either of us any justice. I'm not twisted, and I'm sure the Cypherites don't want their achievements - if they can be called that - diminished by equating them to us.

You're killing our operatives, are you not? Spare your justification, which, according to my previous statement is no justification at all, since it bares with it no justice, there is no difference between the two now. You both get the same orders from the same people, you're both soldiers on the same side of the war. Until now, the only thing deliminating the two was that Machinists hesitated to kill Zion operatives, but that seems to have changed all too easily.

You're slipping, and if you haven't noticed that, you've already hit the bottom. The inability to recognize the human duty to protect and care for the rest of the human race in security, liberty, and right is a sign of this as well. That is how they do things. They neglect them their right to make their own choices, and in doing so, deny them their humanity.

I remember the initial confusion among Machinists at the onset of the war. I am disgusted at how many who were concerned with the overbearing and offending Machine policies and ideals no longer even question their own orders. They kill on command. It's a shame, really. I believe that many would have revolted, had the Machines destroyed Zion toward the beginning of the war. They would have seen it for the calamity and devestation that it was. However, as the war has waged on, so have minds given in and slipped away.

You're killing our operatives, are you not? Spare your justification, which, according to my previous statement is no justification at all, since it bares with it no justice, there is no difference between the two now. You both get the same orders from the same people, you're both soldiers on the same side of the war. Until now, the only thing deliminating the two was that Machinists hesitated to kill Zion operatives, but that seems to have changed all too easily.

You're slipping, and if you haven't noticed that, you've already hit the bottom. The inability to recognize the human duty to protect and care for the rest of the human race in security, liberty, and right is a sign of this as well. That is how they do things. They neglect them their right to make their own choices, and in doing so, deny them their humanity.

I remember the initial confusion among Machinists at the onset of the war. I am disgusted at how many who were concerned with the overbearing and offending Machine policies and ideals no longer even question their own orders. They kill on command. It's a shame, really. I believe that many would have revolted, had the Machines destroyed Zion toward the beginning of the war. They would have seen it for the calamity and devestation that it was. However, as the war has waged on, so have minds given in and slipped away.

Then go tell the fed to consider respecting our threat. But it's alright either way. Karma will complete it's cycle as it always does. Those officers didn't die in vain.

You're killing our operatives, are you not? Spare your justification, which, according to my previous statement is no justification at all, since it bares with it no justice, there is no difference between the two now. You both get the same orders from the same people, you're both soldiers on the same side of the war. Until now, the only thing deliminating the two was that Machinists hesitated to kill Zion operatives, but that seems to have changed all too easily.

You're slipping, and if you haven't noticed that, you've already hit the bottom. The inability to recognize the human duty to protect and care for the rest of the human race in security, liberty, and right is a sign of this as well. That is how they do things. They neglect them their right to make their own choices, and in doing so, deny them their humanity.

I remember the initial confusion among Machinists at the onset of the war. I am disgusted at how many who were concerned with the overbearing and offending Machine policies and ideals no longer even question their own orders. They kill on command. It's a shame, really. I believe that many would have revolted, had the Machines destroyed Zion toward the beginning of the war. They would have seen it for the calamity and devestation that it was. However, as the war has waged on, so have minds given in and slipped away.

If the Machines truly wanted peace, they would have to be the ones who extended their arms for it. 

They did.  They did it before the original war, multiple times, and humans refused to live in peace with them.  And they did it when Neo brokered the truce, when they could have easily let their sentinels destroy Zion once the threat from Smith was over. 

 Cykosis wrote:

Yes, we are at war.  I have already said this, but I do not know if you truly realize what it means to be in war.  So far, Zion has acted weak, and pacifistic compared to the ways that it really could.  I say we unleash the dogs of war and teach you the horrors that are really possible.  Make no mistake, we can stress your precious system and burn it down around you.  An example may have to be made so that the Machines are forced to come back to true negotiations to realize that you need us to play nice.

Oh, we realize what it means.  It means we are killing you inside the Matrix and outside it, when our biggest hope was that Zion would continue to abide by the truce so that a true and lasting peace would evolve.  We were so disappointed when we found out about New Zion -- the construction of that city was like Zion announcing "we will never trust the Machines, we don't want peace unless we can do whatever we want and not have to face the consequences".  So tell me, what dogs of war do you want to unleash, now that you're all in your bunker?  Thinking you can destroy the system is utterly laughable...but we do know it's possible for you to disrupt it, killing large numbers of bluepills in the process.  *That* is why New Zion was seen as a threat by the Machines, and why Zionite activities are now prohibited in the Matrix.  Don't think we're going to let that that threat go unchecked.

Cykosis wrote:

I want peace.  I hate war and truly wish that Machines and Humans can put aside their differences to start tackling the truly important problems we face.  I want to be able to see the real Sun sometime throughout my life.  Unfortunately, with attitudes such as yours, that may never happen.

Perhaps people with attitudes like these -- who would attempt to blackmail the Machines by threatening the system and the lives of all their bluepill brothers and sisters -- don't deserve to see the real sun.

Illyria