Please. Let's not forget who called off the Truce, here. As far as negotiation goes - the Machines haven't really shown themselves to be open to counter-offers. Remember when they asked for access to the Zion Mainframe? Tall order, right? Well, we made quite the equitable offer, access to our mainframe in exchange for access to the Zero-One Mainframe.

And I need not tell you the reason why they called off the truce... As for the that one time when the Machines came to you to help with your problems with unstable people like Anome by having access to your mainframe in exchange for the data processing capability of 01... not all negotiations end with both parties getting a good result, but negotiation is negotiation.

An EMP device is a weapon, even if it is on board a hovercraft, it can still cause the destruction of many sentinels so laying down your weapons does include these devices. They were allowed during the truce because the Machines had no intention of attacking Zion ships then and because you were allowed to defend yourself against other parties such as Merovingian aggressors.

The scenarios I mentioned are possible scenarios, obviously no been acted out but EPN have tried to attack the powerlines...

You don't trust the Machines yet they kept to the letter of the truce while Zion snuck around building New Zion, they could have attacked Zion at anytime to wipe you all out yet they didn't. You claim that they can negotiate to for you to disarm to negotiate for peace is just stalling. When I mentioned meeting with them, in a neutral area away from Zion, the Machine city and the Matrix, I said it so that if the Machines did attack the unarmed party Zion would lose contact with the crew and Zion could immediately reinitialise its defences, and I also said about having listening hovercraft along all access routes in case the Machines decided to attack Zion and not the negotiating party. It's not a lot of hassle, its sound defensive tactics. As for meeting inside the Simulation... when negotiating you don't pick the territory of the people your 'trying' to negotiate with now do you?

I am not being polarized, I am seeing beyond what I want and am trying to see what would be beneficial to all of mankind.

Right - but they went ahead and called it off, didn't they? There was no interest in negotiation, just war. This doesn't give us much of a hope for neogtiation in general, let alone negotiation contingent on the terms of "diarming."

As for EMPs - why should they be permitted under peace times (when they are meant as weapons of war) and "disallowed" under war times? There's no authority there, but, at least in my view, if they were to be seen as a weapon, they would've been seen as weapons during the Truce. These cannot be the weapons the Machines were talking about.

I'll try to forget that you even mentioned the Machines keeping to the Truce "to the letter" (oh yeah, remember those folks known as the Cypherites? that was in no way an attempt to circumvent the Truce), and move on to say that there is no reason we should not negotiate, if anywhere, in the Matrix. All of the scenarios involving the Real incorporate a risk, whereas the Matrix presents no risk. It would be easy enough, and if your only argument against it is that it's "their territory" (which is a joke), then there's no case against making negotiations there, rather than in the Real.

Finally, however, I must ask why and how you see the cessation of awakenings as beneficial to all of mankind. This is something I've been asking throughout this argument that no Machinist has answered. It is clearly a goal of the Machines in this war, as is the removal of all redpills from the Matrix. How is this a good thing?

By your logic, all redpills should be dead, or committed to some sort of vegetable state where they are unable to act, since we are all predestined to start and perpetuate war. And since you concern yourself only with the genetic makeup, that means all Machinists and Cypherites should be lumped in with that group along with the Zionites, EPN, and Merovingian lackeys.

And yes, I am suggesting that what they requested access to the Zion mainframe in order to launch an even more pre-emptive strike on us. It's the only thing they have done with the information they've obtained from the Zion Mainframe. I've no evidence other than their word, which has proven itself to be less than trustworthy (remember that whole "Truce" thing? "We won't attack you, you won't attack us, you're free to extract the one percent?" That held up real well).

machines just love to control everything. controlcontrolcontrol, controlcontrolcontrol! CONTROL.

Makes you sick to the stomach, and the people that actually follow them 'thinking' or 'praying' that one day machines will actually give a *CENSORED* about anyone but there own necks.. they are more deluded than the people that still think NEO is alive. LOL

/Win

What humanity did before the Machines took control of the planet does reflect on today's population. So what if we're created by the Machines? We're still humans, our brains still work in the same way. The only way that we might not fall into the same mindsets as those we had in the 21st century is if society itself has changed. It hasn't.

The world has changed, sure, but society sucks just as much now as it did then. And that's just in the Real. All of us were born in the Matrix and have lived in there to be teenagers or into our twenties. And during those years we were subject to exactly the same influences that society threw at our ancestors - the Matrix simulates the turn of the millennium after all. (And as for the freeborns, they can all trace their lineage to podborns, so they're subject to their parents' influence.) And if you want to argue that Bluepill society is entirely orchestrated by the Machines and that it's therefore their fault that we're brought up that way, consider this: they tried a perfect Matrix. They tried a paradise. No doubt that society wouldn't have made us act like our ancestors. But that Matrix collapsed, remember? So they reverted back to the only society that we could accept. It's our natural state.

In short: humanity is the same, society is the same, so we're just as likely to be racist, warmongering and downright stupid as our 21st century ancestors. And it is for that reason that we have certain idiots in Zion (I'm not saying all of you) who hate or fear the Machines, we have Machine sympathisers (viz. Machinists), we have gluttonous hedonists who don't care about the global situation (Merv operatives) and we have terrorists (Cypherites and EPN). We're the same mix of people that existed centuries ago, and any prejudices applied to them by the Machines now apply to us.

On another note... Are you seriously suggesting that when the Machines requested access to the Zion mainframe all those months ago they only did it so they could start killing operatives? Please don't tell me you're serious! The sheer paranoia of some Zionites truly shocks me. During the Truce Zion was safe from the Machines. Why can't you lot get that through your thick skulls?

I read your statement just fine. I took those particular phrases to indicate genetics, perhaps mixed in with a social context. Pardon if you thought my terms there were ill-phrased, but this is what I was talking about. Essentially, however, you pointed out that the social influences were controlled, and a result of a "natural state," thus indicating a genetic predisposition towards war, supporting the concept of a manmade "original sin" situation. Right?

I realized your statement that we are not all warmongering, however, by your logic, that we have comitted this original sin, and that things are just going to go a specific way, no matter what, then there's no point to any of our struggles, and that we are wicked by default (the majority, at least). I was making a statement saying that, since, according to you, there is no difference between the society of the very first Man-Machine war, where we were clearly at fault and the society of the modern day, and modern society, that we should all, as analagous to the first human race who were all condemned to death, should be given the same or a similar sentence as we would commit the exact errors they had, no matter our illusion of choice or difference in this lifetime. I went on to say that since there was no mercy for any human being in the first war, why should, why would there be any in this? If we are doomed to repeat history, as your logic implied, I say that the Machine is then coming for us all, and sooner, rather than later. Clear on "point a?"

Point C is minor. I was just overemphasizing this because, (though you may realize it, many of your compatriots do not) Machinists and Cypherites are not exempt from any of the human holocaust. Many suffer the delusion that for their "service" they will be permitted such a pension as to be allowed to live. But the Machine recognizes the escalating probability of disaster that their breeding and "living" would cause, and would find it no less than efficient to eliminate them. At least, that's how I see it. But, to answer your point, I was simply overemphasizing for the point of drawing a clearer inclusion than you suggested.

As for the Mainframe? Of course. But I've seen no evidence of what they would have otherwise done with the information. There's no reason for me to believe they ever had a benevolent agenda, other than their word, which, as I said, is less than credible in my eyes.

I am paying attention to your statements, I'm just saying things you don't believe, and don't want to hear.

Right - but they went ahead and called it off, didn't they? There was no interest in negotiation, just war. This doesn't give us much of a hope for neogtiation in general, let alone negotiation contingent on the terms of "diarming."

As for EMPs - why should they be permitted under peace times (when they are meant as weapons of war) and "disallowed" under war times? There's no authority there, but, at least in my view, if they were to be seen as a weapon, they would've been seen as weapons during the Truce. These cannot be the weapons the Machines were talking about.

I'll try to forget that you even mentioned the Machines keeping to the Truce "to the letter" (oh yeah, remember those folks known as the Cypherites? that was in no way an attempt to circumvent the Truce), and move on to say that there is no reason we should not negotiate, if anywhere, in the Matrix. All of the scenarios involving the Real incorporate a risk, whereas the Matrix presents no risk. It would be easy enough, and if your only argument against it is that it's "their territory" (which is a joke), then there's no case against making negotiations there, rather than in the Real.

Finally, however, I must ask why and how you see the cessation of awakenings as beneficial to all of mankind. This is something I've been asking throughout this argument that no Machinist has answered. It is clearly a goal of the Machines in this war, as is the removal of all redpills from the Matrix. How is this a good thing?

I was just overemphasizing this because, (though you may realize it, many of your compatriots do not) Machinists and Cypherites are not exempt from any of the human holocaust. Many suffer the delusion that for their "service" they will be permitted such a pension as to be allowed to live. But the Machine recognizes the escalating probability of disaster that their breeding and "living" would cause, and would find it no less than efficient to eliminate them. At least, that's how I see it. But, to answer your point, I was simply overemphasizing for the point of drawing a clearer inclusion than you suggested.

You could have made an effort to try for a negotiation though, but there was none. EMP's were allowed in peace time as the Machines wouldn't and didn't make any moves against you in order to force you to set them off, they were defensive devices that you can use against other Organisations or 'pirate' vessels, it was also possibly one of the terms of the truce that The Architect and The Oracle hammered out for both Zion and Machine, that Zion be allowed to keep their defensive weaponry, but that can not be proven at this point.

The Machines kept to the letter, but loopholes in the truce allowed for the Machines to create a group of people that will make sure Zion wasn't waking more that the 1% allowed by the truce. I also cannot prove this, but you also cannot prove that they broke the truce by doing so.

How is the simulation being Machine territory a joke? It was created and is created by the Machines, they have control over it. As for 'negotiating' there, do you also forget that Machines enter the simulation as programs? Given the right technical planning, it wouldn't take much for Zion to block any Machine signals and terminate them inside the simulation, indeed we are all aware of the success of certain kill-codes. Or is that an idea that Zion is wanting to pursue? Neutral ground means no advantage to either side, Machines or Zion.

Before I answer your final question, I must ask why you believe that awakening people from the simulation is beneficial to mankind, apart from bolstering Zion's military. A bluepill can live his or her life quite happily even with the splinter of thought that something might be wrong, it will save them from being killed in a war that they have little idea of. Besides I only took from the Architects words that Zion was not allowed to awaken any more bluepills. That doesn't mean that Machinists can't be present at self substantiated awakenings to ease the understandably unnerved bluepill into the truth. With the cycle of the one finished there is no requirement for bluepills to be woken up, unless they are specialists in a field of expertise that can benefit both Man and Machine such as working with the Machines to help attempt to clear the sky and bring vegetation back to the surface en mass.

Those terms (disarm to approach negotiation) were presented at what was essentially the very beginning of the war to Machinists, and it was through them that we learned about it. Now, as we're being caught off guard pursued and killed in the Real, the first thing on our minds wasn't exactly negotiation, and understandably so, wouldn't you say? Now, as we're being attacked, and the city of Zion is completely crushed and destroyed, maybe you'd understand that there are a good number of us in Zion who aren't too keen to turn off our defenses, even for an instant, to fly to some vulnerable spot in the Real and say "We'd appreciate it a whole lot if you'd stop killing us." We're not that trusting, especially after the abrupt nullification of the Truce. That's just not going to happen.

We can discard that whole EMP thing - I was just saying that there's basically no way those were the weapons the Machines were referencing in their terms for negotiation, since they've been around for forever and a day. And, well, there's no way we'd strip every ship of their EMPs. No way in hell. I think even they can see that. And if that is what they were referencing, it's an even more offensive term.

And if you're saying that the Machines didn't "break the Truce" by creating and nursing the Cypherites, I will very clearly tell you that Zion never "broke the Truce" by creating New Zion. Just as simple as that when you get to that argument.

Now, for the Matrix - it being a Machine-only territory is a joke. Redpills enter every day, there's probably not a second that not one operative is jacked-in. It is populated by bluepills, humans, those we once were, and the minds who, when ready, are freed. The Matrix is a simulated human world, not a Machine world. It seems quite ironic to call it Machine territory to me, though they are technically in "posession" of it, I guess. And, as for the schemes you're talking about - I thought the idea was negotiation? Why would we block Machine signals? That wouldn't get us anywhere.

Killcodes, I understand, are more than a little difficult to create in a matter of moments - the one for Anome took quite a while, and even if they're used, if someone else jumps in the way, as referenced with the Kid and the Oracle, nothing's going to happen. In other words - they're easy enough to stop, whereas there's nothing in the Real that will prevent death. We're moving for negotiation, assuming it would be wanted by both parties in this scenario, it would be relatively easy to broker in the Matrix where ploys are less than simple to exact, whereas in the Real all it would take is one big Machine ambush. I still see no disadvantage to negotiation in the Matrix.

And your question? I could answer but...

You took the red pill, didn't you? Shouldn't you know the answer to that one?

Neoteny wrote:

I was just overemphasizing this because, (though you may realize it, many of your compatriots do not) Machinists and Cypherites are not exempt from any of the human holocaust. Many suffer the delusion that for their "service" they will be permitted such a pension as to be allowed to live. But the Machine recognizes the escalating probability of disaster that their breeding and "living" would cause, and would find it no less than efficient to eliminate them. At least, that's how I see it. But, to answer your point, I was simply overemphasizing for the point of drawing a clearer inclusion than you suggested.

Please prove this. Just because the Machines are at war with Zion does not make Machinists or Bluepills next on their list. We have proven that we can work with them. If we can show them that Humankind has made up for its past, that we can live with the Machines without malice and work to produce a better world, the same way that they wanted when their original envoys went to the UN. You have no evidence at all to backup your claims that we will be included in any terminations. That is just typical, standard Zion propaganda, spouted by those who attempt to prey on anyone who has joined the Machines or Cyphs or are thinking about it, in order to convince them to fight for your cause.

Again, this is a manner of disproving Proc's logic. In the first war, all were wiped out. Certainly there were some Machine sympathizers there, too? If now is just like then... Well, guess what's coming for you?

But if you'd like an example...

Oh, and here's another couple which contribute to what we've been talking about. Remember to analyze the language thoroughly, as with the above - they have ensured that you will not become a threat to the System. I wonder how? Their ways of ensuring that Zionites do not become threats to the System hasn't been so friendly.

Our termination of the Truce. 

And the statement we've been bickering over.

Before I answer your final question, I must ask why you believe that awakening people from the simulation is beneficial to mankind, apart from bolstering Zion's military. A bluepill can live his or her life quite happily even with the splinter of thought that something might be wrong, it will save them from being killed in a war that they have little idea of. Besides I only took from the Architects words that Zion was not allowed to awaken any more bluepills. That doesn't mean that Machinists can't be present at self substantiated awakenings to ease the understandably unnerved bluepill into the truth. With the cycle of the one finished there is no requirement for bluepills to be woken up, unless they are specialists in a field of expertise that can benefit both Man and Machine such as working with the Machines to help attempt to clear the sky and bring vegetation back to the surface en mass.

Again, this is a manner of disproving Proc's logic. In the first war, all were wiped out. Certainly there were some Machine sympathizers there, too? If now is just like then... Well, guess what's coming for you?

But if you'd like an example...

Ensuring that we will not harm the system in the future and killing us are two separate things, they do not go hand in hand. You still present a form of propaganda with no proof. What other ways can they ensure that we would not harm the system? By choosing who works for them carefully? By preventing our signals from entering the Simulation when we are not needed any more etc.....

Also, this record states that our existence is not based on the existence of Zion. We are here to Protect the Simulation and those who depend on it for survival. There are more enemies of the system out there than Zion, don't get big headed.

Oh, and here's another couple which contribute to what we've been talking about. Remember to analyze the language thoroughly, as with the above - they have ensured that you will not become a threat to the System. I wonder how? Their ways of ensuring that Zionites do not become threats to the System hasn't been so friendly.

Our termination of the Truce.

Due to Zion's breach of the truce, yes we are aware of this.

And the statement we've been bickering over.

Yes, surrender of your Arms and Fortifications.

Vinia wrote:

A bluepill can live his or her life quite happily even with the splinter of thought that something might be wrong, it will save them from being killed in a war that they have little idea of.

Just a little side-note here: By this statement you are essentially saying that a Bluepill, and by extension every human, should be happy to merely plod away at life. To merely exist. Contributing nothing but the inefficient conversion of carbon-based matter to electrical and thermal energy. If that is the case... why do you fight so firecely to defend a way of life that you yourself rejected by taking the red-pill.

There is a difference between non-harmful and benneficial.

All forms of sentience, human or otherwise should be free to chose how they live. That will never happen while bluepills remain un-aware of the real world, nor while the silliest of excuses are used to open and continue hostilities.

Again, this is a manner of disproving Proc's logic. In the first war, all were wiped out. Certainly there were some Machine sympathizers there, too?

This statement is nonsense.  You're claiming that all humans were wiped out by the Machines during the original war?  Impossible.  If that were true, then we wouldn't be here today!  You can't just create a human being out of nothing; you can't mix a bunch of DNA together and get the human genetic code.  Besides, the original 'surrender your flesh' line was 'surrender your flesh and a new world awaits you'. 

As for those who (continually) say that once Zion and its inhabitants are gone the Machines will kill all their redpill operatives as well, I have two things to say.  The first is that there's no proof this will happen.  Why kill us all off when some of us, at least, would willingly share our energy with them?  Even if a redpill can't go back to being a bluepill, you can still be hooked into a pod and be aware of the Matrix.  My second response to the claim that the Machines will kill us all off is this:  I am a soldier, and soldiers have the duty to protect the civilian population, even if it means giving up their lives so that the civilians of their country won't have to.  A soldier does not put his or her own life above that of civilians, and a soldier does not cower and hide when it comes time to make that sacrifice.  The civilians here are the bluepills, the vast majority of the human race, and the country that sustains them is the system.  My duty is to protect them both, to make sure the human race continues to exist.  To put my life above their safety would be both selfish and cowardly...therefore, if I were deemed to be a threat to them, then that threat should be neutralized.  The lives of the 99% of the human race still in the Matrix outweigh the lives of a comparative handful of redpills, no matter what org they're in.

Illyria

Neoteny wrote:

Again, this is a manner of disproving Proc's logic. In the first war, all were wiped out. Certainly there were some Machine sympathizers there, too? If now is just like then... Well, guess what's coming for you?

But if you'd like an example...

Ensuring that we will not harm the system in the future and killing us are two separate things, they do not go hand in hand. You still present a form of propaganda with no proof. What other ways can they ensure that we would not harm the system? By choosing who works for them carefully? By preventing our signals from entering the Simulation when we are not needed any more etc.....

Also, this record states that our existence is not based on the existence of Zion. We are here to Protect the Simulation and those who depend on it for survival. There are more enemies of the system out there than Zion, don't get big headed.

Oh, and here's another couple which contribute to what we've been talking about. Remember to analyze the language thoroughly, as with the above - they have ensured that you will not become a threat to the System. I wonder how? Their ways of ensuring that Zionites do not become threats to the System hasn't been so friendly.

Our termination of the Truce.

Due to Zion's breach of the truce, yes we are aware of this.

And the statement we've been bickering over.

Yes, surrender of your Arms and Fortifications.

Your propaganda and insinuated propaganda is as flawed as your belief that you can change our beliefs with it.

What propaganda? I told you that the intention was merely to back up my refutation, and threw in a file with a statement that's something you should probably be worried about. But if you want to be as gulliable as we were during the Truce, then, by all means, be my guest. I don't expect you to listen, but I will be damned if I won't sound the warning bell until the day I, or the Machine die.

Of course your existence doesn't depend on Zion - no one's does. I'm still around, aren't I? And Zion's gone. And that's the deal they've offered you anyway, destroy all Zion, you can live. But if you really believe that your function as an operative working for the System hasn't changed, you're obviously blind. No Machinists had any orders to attack, or, as the situation is, kill Zion operatives, or damage their equipment and information. That sounds like a change to me. Or would you have done that during the Truce if the Machines had told you to?

However, you still have not answered the most important question. Still. Why do you believe the cessation of awakenings to be a good thing? Why would you support this goal? Do you not remember your own awakening? Do you not remember ignorance, and the knowledge you now possess? Or have you, too, found it to be bliss?

Neoteny wrote:

Again, this is a manner of disproving Proc's logic. In the first war, all were wiped out. Certainly there were some Machine sympathizers there, too?

 

This statement is nonsense.  You're claiming that all humans were wiped out by the Machines during the original war?  Impossible.  If that were true, then we wouldn't be here today!  You can't just create a human being out of nothing; you can't mix a bunch of DNA together and get the human genetic code.  Besides, the original 'surrender your flesh' line was 'surrender your flesh and a new world awaits you'. 

As for those who (continually) say that once Zion and its inhabitants are gone the Machines will kill all their redpill operatives as well, I have two things to say.  The first is that there's no proof this will happen.  Why kill us all off when some of us, at least, would willingly share our energy with them?  Even if a redpill can't go back to being a bluepill, you can still be hooked into a pod and be aware of the Matrix.  My second response to the claim that the Machines will kill us all off is this:  I am a soldier, and soldiers have the duty to protect the civilian population, even if it means giving up their lives so that the civilians of their country won't have to.  A soldier does not put his or her own life above that of civilians, and a soldier does not cower and hide when it comes time to make that sacrifice.  The civilians here are the bluepills, the vast majority of the human race, and the country that sustains them is the system.  My duty is to protect them both, to make sure the human race continues to exist.  To put my life above their safety would be both selfish and cowardly...therefore, if I were deemed to be a threat to them, then that threat should be neutralized.  The lives of the 99% of the human race still in the Matrix outweigh the lives of a comparative handful of redpills, no matter what org they're in.

What do you think "surrender your flesh" means? Well, I'll tell you. Even though you folks think you've been clever adopting it as some sort of catchy slogan, it means "die." Death, erradication, doom. The end. Game over.

But let's be honest here, what exactly are you protecting the bluepills from?

Right. You've been a noted Cypherite since before the end of the Truce, anyhow.