What propaganda? I told you that the intention was merely to back up my refutation, and threw in a file with a statement that's something you should probably be worried about. But if you want to be as gulliable as we were during the Truce, then, by all means, be my guest. I don't expect you to listen, but I will be damned if I won't sound the warning bell until the day I, or the Machine die.

Of course your existence doesn't depend on Zion - no one's does. I'm still around, aren't I? And Zion's gone. And that's the deal they've offered you anyway, destroy all Zion, you can live. But if you really believe that your function as an operative working for the System hasn't changed, you're obviously blind. No Machinists had any orders to attack, or, as the situation is, kill Zion operatives, or damage their equipment and information. That sounds like a change to me. Or would you have done that during the Truce if the Machines had told you to?

However, you still have not answered the most important question. Still. Why do you believe the cessation of awakenings to be a good thing? Why would you support this goal? Do you not remember your own awakening? Do you not remember ignorance, and the knowledge you now possess? Or have you, too, found it to be bliss?

What do you think "surrender your flesh" means? Well, I'll tell you. Even though you folks think you've been clever adopting it as some sort of catchy slogan, it means "die." Death, erradication, doom. The end. Game over.

But let's be honest here, what exactly are you protecting the bluepills from?

What do you think "surrender your flesh" means? Well, I'll tell you. Even though you folks think you've been clever adopting it as some sort of catchy slogan, it means "die." Death, erradication, doom. The end. Game over.

So 'surrendering your flesh' means dying, not getting plugged in for power generation (which is what they were talking about), and the 'new world' they mentioned was the afterlife?  No.

Neoteny wrote:

But let's be honest here, what exactly are you protecting the bluepills from?

We are protecting them from threats to the Matrix, their life support system.  We are also protecting them from recruitment by Zion into a war zone. 

Neoteny wrote:

Right. You've been a noted Cypherite since before the end of the Truce, anyhow.

You must have me confused with someone else -- during the truce I strongly opposed Cypherite attacks on Zion ships and personnel.  In my mind, Cypherites are just as defeatist as EPN and many Zionites...they don't believe humans can ever live in peace with the Machines.  Cypherites think we'd be better off staying in our pods, whereas I believe that humanity can outgrow its fear and hatred and live together with the Machines.  (Some of us have already started, we're just waiting for the rest of you to catch up.)  Also, during the truce, I fully supported the awakening of anyone who had rejected the system and who wanted out.  Awakenings have only been curtailed because of the state of war.  We don't want Zion's forces increasing -- new redpills are being recruited into Zion, and I seriously doubt any of them can easily get out of New Zion if they do happen to want to work for another org!  Plus we don't want anyone who's stuck in New Zion but not happy there to end up as collateral damage.  This is the answer to the question someone asked, why the "cessation of awakenings is beneficial to all of mankind", at least for now, while we're at war.  Once the war is over, awakenings will have to continue -- but not to bolster Zion's army with new recruits.  Awakenings are necessary because without them the system would become unstable. 

Illyria

You told me to analyse their wording carefully.... You could do the same. Our existence does not depend on Zion's not just the old city, but its population in the new city. What you do does not mean that the Machines will retaliate at us. No such deal was made, I joined them and they allowed me to protect the system and the blues against it's enemies, this now includes you and yours. Our function hasn't changed at all we are still charged with protecting the system and its inhabitants. The actions needed to achieve this may have changed but the goal is still the same.

I have already stated that it is only Zion who has been prohibited from awakening those who reject the system, if there are any bluepills that require to be woken for whatever reason or someone self substantiates themselves then I have no doubts that the Machines would allow Machinists to see to it. What reason do you want to awaken bluepills to this war? As I have said before, the only reason why you would want to is to increase your own military strength, under the cover of 'freeing them because they want to be freed'. You say when you meet them that you cannot tell them what the Matrix is, they have to see it for themselves.... If you don't tell them, how do they know they want to be freed? You prey on their curiosity but give them no warning.

I certainly didn't know what the Matrix was, I had nagging doubts about the simulation for years, but I buried them and got on with my life. I was happy with my life but was duped by a terrorist that my unit was after. . I was fed lies and half truths from the that man when he saw the doubts in my eyes whilst I was under duress and in a vulnerable state. When I saw the actual truth in the archives it was then that I decided that to secure mankind's future, cooperation with Machines was the way forward.

Knowing what I know, I don't want to go back, when I can at least try to protect and make a difference for the future of bluepills who currently depend on the simulation to live.

Then you should realize that Gray says the priveledge was granted to Zion (and to no one else) under the Truce, and has hereby been revoked. He's not going to be telling you to go extract some bluepills anytime soon. Why? Because it is the very right we are fighting for. Were it permitted for Machinists, there would be no point to the Zion cause - all could simply shift over and awaken every bluepill that wanted out. But they have forbidden it. That is why we continue to fight.

As for your purpose? I submit to you that it must have changed, as we haven't changed a *CENSORED* thing. We enter the Matrix, run extractions, and try to keep our Systems running. What has changed are your orders, your definitions. Someone has placed a rose-colored lens in front of your eye, which has painted Zionites traitors and enemies.

And maybe you had a bad awakening. That seems to be the case among many Machinists and Cypherites. But the point is that you don't regret it. It's something that you wanted, and it was beneficial. I know with my own awakening that I doubted the reality of the Matrix, and when I was shown the truth, it was a great relief. Woes, fears, mental instability - it had all been an illusion, as I had thought. I certainly would have gone mad within the confines of the Matrix. And if there's one thing worse than death, it's being a prisoner in your own mind, denied the truth, subject to the lie. That is why I will continue to offer the choice. That is why it is a necessity - because every human being deserves to know the truth, to make a conscious choice about their life.

For life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The inborn human rights, according to John Locke.

Neoteny wrote:

What do you think "surrender your flesh" means? Well, I'll tell you. Even though you folks think you've been clever adopting it as some sort of catchy slogan, it means "die." Death, erradication, doom. The end. Game over.

But let's be honest here, what exactly are you protecting the bluepills from?

Again you need to take some of your own advice and analyse the wording of the Machines. 'Surrender your flesh and a new world awaits you' is a metaphor. Note that they didn't say 'Surrender your lives...' they said flesh... the easiest thing to see that makes them different to us.

It means stop allowing and fear of difference, that is embedded into the human psyche, to take control of you. Surrender what makes you so fearful of the Machines, and the future, the world will be much brighter with both living without prejudice. By giving the Machines and Mankind a chance at peace a blissful future would be had.

We are protecting Bluepills from anything that can disrupt or damage the thing they depend on to live, the system. This comes in many forms, not just other redpills with delusions of reclaiming the surface for humanity only, but also programs who want to increase their power or take advantage of the simulation.

...And what did they do? Killed 'em all.

But more to the point, what exactly are you protecting bluepills from? What danger is there? Obviously, you have been killing our operatives, and prohibiting our extractions - why? What threat do they pose? Extractions are no different than they were during the Truce, and even before the Truce. Again, we haven't changed a *CENSORED* thing. What reason, other than Machine mandate, makes us the aggressors of bluepills and the System?

When it comes down to it in the end, the Machines, Agents, exiles or we zionites really don't have much power or control in the Matrix. Deus Ex does. If he/it will change the balance of the Matrix, I am pretty sure he could do that without Agent Grey, Niobe or the Merovingian's approval first...and not to forget Cryptos. We fight on each of our sides...as we should do in this war. We can even think, that we are 101% sure, that our enemies are wrong, when they claim who started this war, who want peace, who killed who etc.

To be hornets, it's about time we really do accept that we are at war. If there comes a time where we can sit around the table and negotiate...we will know. The time is not right now it seems. We still protect what we have to protect, because we did chose our own path and follow our friends and leaders..right?

I believe it's time to take another road if both sides want peace. All we need it is to say yes. Do you want peace, do you want this war to end? (has nothing to do with Algorithm)

Say YES to end the war.

(Edit: stupid smilies)

Neoteny wrote:

What do you think "surrender your flesh" means? Well, I'll tell you. Even though you folks think you've been clever adopting it as some sort of catchy slogan, it means "die." Death, erradication, doom. The end. Game over.

So 'surrendering your flesh' means dying, not getting plugged in for power generation (which is what they were talking about), and the 'new world' they mentioned was the afterlife?  No.

Yes, essentially.

Neoteny wrote:

But let's be honest here, what exactly are you protecting the bluepills from?

We are protecting them from threats to the Matrix, their life support system.  We are also protecting them from recruitment by Zion into a war zone. 

Again, what threat? And I'll remind you, the Machine has the power to call off the war at any time - the "war zone" is their doing, not ours. We even offer protective shelter in New Zion.

Neoteny wrote:

Right. You've been a noted Cypherite since before the end of the Truce, anyhow.

You must have me confused with someone else -- during the truce I strongly opposed Cypherite attacks on Zion ships and personnel.  In my mind, Cypherites are just as defeatist as EPN and many Zionites...they don't believe humans can ever live in peace with the Machines.  Cypherites think we'd be better off staying in our pods, whereas I believe that humanity can outgrow its fear and hatred and live together with the Machines.  (Some of us have already started, we're just waiting for the rest of you to catch up.)  Also, during the truce, I fully supported the awakening of anyone who had rejected the system and who wanted out.  Awakenings have only been curtailed because of the state of war.  We don't want Zion's forces increasing -- new redpills are being recruited into Zion, and I seriously doubt any of them can easily get out of New Zion if they do happen to want to work for another org!  Plus we don't want anyone who's stuck in New Zion but not happy there to end up as collateral damage.  This is the answer to the question someone asked, why the "cessation of awakenings is beneficial to all of mankind", at least for now, while we're at war.  Once the war is over, awakenings will have to continue -- but not to bolster Zion's army with new recruits.  Awakenings are necessary because without them the system would become unstable. 

Pardon me if I don't think truth has patience. It demands to be known, and this can be seen through the madness many bluepills spiral into when they are unable to find the answers they seek. Pardon me if I will not permit 30,000 human beings to go mad and become a danger to themselves and others, where there is a simple solution - generally the one they are seeking. It is a travesty that we are at "war," and as I have said before, and will, no doubt, say again, the existence of the war is contingent on the Machine will. They could end it at any time without repercussion, but will not. 

And if I recall, you once made a statement along the lines of "I don't see much of a problem with the Cypherites," not to mention your escapades running into a Zion meeting uninvited and opening fire on the captains and liaisons gathered, killing a Captain of Zion. It is through your actions, not your views, that I have found you to act in a manner befitting a Cypherite. Prohibiting awakenings, killing Zion's redpills - they say if the glove fits...

...And what did they do? Killed 'em all.

But more to the point, what exactly are you protecting bluepills from? What danger is there? Obviously, you have been killing our operatives, and prohibiting our extractions - why? What threat do they pose? Extractions are no different than they were during the Truce, and even before the Truce. Again, we haven't changed a *CENSORED* thing. What reason, other than Machine mandate, makes us the aggressors of bluepills and the System?

So none were plugged into the Matrix then?

Also you answer your own question. Machine mandate has changed, you have become aggressors to the system, whilst Machinist goal has not changed, we protect the system and, as an extention to that, bluepills against its enemies. Zion has made itself an enemy, so why should we allow your activities inside the simulation to continue as if the truce was still ongoing? Unless you are blind to the situation, you will see tht extractions have changed, during the truce, you were safe from intervention by Agents of the system as you were allowed to wake the 1%. You are now not safe.... awakening are more perilous for you and your extraction teams, in fact your mere presence inside certain areas the simulation is moderated. You do not need to be inside the System for anything other than illegally waking bluepills and mounting hostile actions against the Machines.

Just because Agent Gray said that Zion's privileges were revoked, he mentions nothing about anything else, what proof do you have that we are unable to wake people up if its necessary?

I have also mentioned before that it's not just you who pose a threat to the system there are other threats as well, the Intruder for one, or have you been living under a rock in New Zion? I don't expect you to agree with what I say, it has gone past the point where you will actually stop and listen to us, but I do expect you to read what we say, instead of asking the same question over and over, one that has been answered. Not only do you not read what we say, but you make conclusions with only half the facts. Debating, or even arguing with you is pointless as you are unable to register what we are saying.

Zion's short lived Sun has set, you plunged yorselves into darkness. Let us hope that there are some within the walls with the courage and wisdom to see what is needed to bring about Zion's contribution to peace, and to allow the Sun to rise again.... hopefully for a much longer time.

Neoteny wrote:

...And what did they do? Killed 'em all.

But more to the point, what exactly are you protecting bluepills from? What danger is there? Obviously, you have been killing our operatives, and prohibiting our extractions - why? What threat do they pose? Extractions are no different than they were during the Truce, and even before the Truce. Again, we haven't changed a *CENSORED* thing. What reason, other than Machine mandate, makes us the aggressors of bluepills and the System?

So none were plugged into the Matrix then?

This is original humanity. They didn't have plugs. Ergo, they could not be plugged into the Matrix, which, at that point, didn't exist anyway. As far as we know, only grown human beings have the plugs necessary to be jacked-into the Matrix. Additionally, wouldn't it sort of fail if they already knew there was another real world? They'd be just like redpills by default - there's no chance they'd fall for the simulation ploy. And even after that, the first Matrix has been revealed to have been a failure - all that were plugged in died. There were no survivors of the original humanity. 

Also you answer your own question. Machine mandate has changed, you have become aggressors to the system, whilst Machinist goal has not changed, we protect the system and, as an extention to that, bluepills against its enemies. Zion has made itself an enemy, so why should we allow your activities inside the simulation to continue as if the truce was still ongoing? Unless you are blind to the situation, you will see tht extractions have changed, during the truce, you were safe from intervention by Agents of the system as you were allowed to wake the 1%. You are now not safe.... awakening are more perilous for you and your extraction teams, in fact your mere presence inside certain areas the simulation is moderated. You do not need to be inside the System for anything other than illegally waking bluepills and mounting hostile actions against the Machines.

We haven't changed anything - as I said, extraction procedure hasn't changed, it's been happening the same way since the first war. You can tell yourself it's changed all you want, but it's not us that did the changing. Our procedures are still the same as they have always been. You have, however, made it clear that you follow orders in perfect Divine Command theory, with the Machine at the head. In other words - why act against us? Because they said that's what's good. Or, at least, that's all I've been able to discern. You say you defend the System and bluepills from all enemies - but who is the enemy? Who the Machine tells you is the enemy. You say you are protecting them, but what is there to protect them from? Actions the Machine has told you are hostile.

Just because Agent Gray said that Zion's privileges were revoked, he mentions nothing about anything else, what proof do you have that we are unable to wake people up if its necessary?

The fact that the Machines would never view a loss of power as necessary.

I have also mentioned before that it's not just you who pose a threat to the system there are other threats as well, the Intruder for one, or have you been living under a rock in New Zion? I don't expect you to agree with what I say, it has gone past the point where you will actually stop and listen to us, but I do expect you to read what we say, instead of asking the same question over and over, one that has been answered. Not only do you not read what we say, but you make conclusions with only half the facts.

I don't get what the Intruder has to do with anything, at least concerning the topic we've been discussing, or why you folks keep accusing me of not reading anything. I've read every damned statement you've written, and made a response. Maybe if you'd read what I had to say and respond to that, I wouldn't have had to raise the same question over and over again. I feel it is a question of paramount importance which needs due consideration and evaluation, and everyone was overlooking it. Hence, I repeated myself, as I would expect you to do the same if you believed that I had overlooked something.

I'd like for you to understand and agree with what I'm saying, for someone to - that's why I'm saying it, I suppose. But I don't expect you to.

And, for future interests: If you are attempting to assert that I am not reading your answers for my continued line of questioning - I assure you that I am reading very diligently. Sometimes it takes me quite a time to conjure up a response because I am making sure that I answer in kind to the points of your response. If I raise a question again, it is generally in the interest of the Socratic Method, as I have found many of your responses to be hollow.

For example:

Q: Why do you serve as Machinist operatives?
A: To protect the System and the bluepills therein.
Q: And what exactly are you protecting them from?
A: Whatever threatens them.
Q: Why, then, are Zionites being targeted? In what way have we threatened bluepills and the System?
A: You have been labelled enemies of the System by the Machine.
Q: Why have we been labelled enemies of the System? Why do you consider the mandate of the System an ultimate authority in this situation?
A: Because I believe they are the ultimate authority. Morality and justice stems through them. You have been labelled enemies of the System because you broke the Truce.
Q: Ah, but how did we break the Truce again? Because the Machine said that we broke the Truce? Since they are the ultimate source of morality and justice, might anything we have done be seen as a breach of the Truce, if their word is infallible?

Et cetera. It serves to find the root of your argument. Of course, in his day, many people assumed Socrates either wasn't listening, or that he should have been more satisfied with the hollow answers he was given...

I don't get what the Intruder has to do with anything, at least concerning the topic we've been discussing, or why you folks keep accusing me of not reading anything. I've read every damned statement you've written, and made a response.

Exactly why I say you do not register what we say. I will make this as easy as I can for you. We protect the Bluepills against threats to the system, you are not the only threat to the system, and you are because you've stated that you are agressors ever since the Machines changed their mandate towards Zion. The Intruder is such a threat and is directly relevant to the argument. When he first arrived he managed to disrupt the lives of bluepills in the vicinity, creating panic and a disturbance. His appearance could cause some people to summarily reject the simulation, ie killing them. His powers of controlling System programs are a direct threat as System Agents are there to protect the system. Granted, the bloody Cypherites provoked it but that doesn't mean that it is a force for peace. Until it's intentions are made clear it will be viewed as a threat to the Simulation and the Bluepills.

If you really care for bluepills the way Zion says it does you would be concerned about it too.

Q: Why do you serve as Machinist operatives?
A: To protect the System and the bluepills therein.

Correct, the most basic goal we have. I am pleased that you wrote it, but do you understand it, really?

Q: And what exactly are you protecting them from?
A: Whatever threatens them.

 ...and the system they rely on to live...

Q: Why, then, are Zionites being targeted? In what way have we threatened bluepills and the System?
A: You have been labelled enemies of the System by the Machine.

 You have labelled yourselves enemies of the system. 'They have us dead to rights'... remember who said that?

Q: Why have we been labelled enemies of the System? Why do you consider the mandate of the System an ultimate authority in this situation?

A: Because I believe they are the ultimate authority. Morality and justice stems through them. You have been labelled enemies of the System because you broke the Truce.

Your continued actions against the rules of the system makes the case for your labelling. Yes you broke the truce, an action that was seen as hostile to the eyes of the Machines and Machinists alike. Your suggested answer to this has come from your own imagination.

Q: Ah, but how did we break the Truce again? Because the Machine said that we broke the Truce? Since they are the ultimate source of morality and justice, might anything we have done be seen as a breach of the Truce, if their word is infallible?

A: You broke the truce by building a fortified city, a city which allows for strikes against Machine installation with no fear of retaliation. What did the Oracle say about the truce ending? She hammered out Zion's side... did she say that the Machines were lying?

Et cetera. It serves to find the root of your argument. Of course, in his day, many people assumed Socrates either wasn't listening, or that he should have been more satisfied with the hollow answers he was given...

It also serves to gain the correct answers instead of making up your own on our behalf....

Pardon me if I don't think truth has patience. It demands to be known, and this can be seen through the madness many bluepills spiral into when they are unable to find the answers they seek. Pardon me if I will not permit 30,000 human beings to go mad and become a danger to themselves and others, where there is a simple solution - generally the one they are seeking. It is a travesty that we are at "war," and as I have said before, and will, no doubt, say again, the existence of the war is contingent on the Machine will. They could end it at any time without repercussion, but will not. 

I still believe it's more like 60 million, rather than 30,000, but why quibble over numbers? 

We are at war because Zion wanted war.  They proved this by constructing a new, fortified city that they knew would bring about that war once it was discovered. 

Neoteny wrote:

And if I recall, you once made a statement along the lines of "I don't see much of a problem with the Cypherites,"

I was referring to Cypherite philosophy.  The Cyphs have every right to believe that nobody should be awakened, just as Zionites and Machinists and Mervs have every right to believe what they do. 

 Neoteny wrote:

 not to mention your escapades running into a Zion meeting uninvited and opening fire on the captains and liaisons gathered, killing a Captain of Zion. It is through your actions, not your views, that I have found you to act in a manner befitting a Cypherite. Prohibiting awakenings, killing Zion's redpills - they say if the glove fits...

If we had known that Zion captain's EJP wouldn't work, the Machinists there certainly wouldn't have attacked her.  (Also, if the log is checked, it can be clearly seen that I didn't attack that captain.)  We weren't at war then, after all!  But since we *are* at war now, I will continue to try to prevent bluepills from being awakened and kill any Zion redpill that threatens the stability of the Matrix.  Zion's selfish vendettas will not be allowed to harm the life support system for 99% of humanity.

Illyria

Hmmm. Putting aside mankind's inherent right to freedom and the crimes against humanity for wrongful imprisonment and enslavement, are you, Illyria (and Vinia too, for that matter), willing to risk 600,000 bluepills to madness and death just because the Machines say 'we are at war, don't allow any more awakenings'? Because by your own numbers, that is number of the 1% who naturally reject the lie of the Matrix.

Tell me again how you Toaster-lovers are all about the "protection of bluepills?"

Hmmm. Putting aside mankind's inherent right to freedom and the crimes against humanity for wrongful imprisonment and enslavement, are you, Illyria (and Vinia too, for that matter), willing to risk 600,000 bluepills to madness and death just because the Machines say 'we are at war, don't allow any more awakenings'? Because by your own numbers, that is number of the 1% who naturally reject the lie of the Matrix.

Tell me again how you Toaster-lovers are all about the "protection of bluepills?"

Hmmm. Putting aside mankind's inherent right to freedom and the crimes against humanity for wrongful imprisonment and enslavement, are you, Illyria (and Vinia too, for that matter), willing to risk 600,000 bluepills to madness and death just because the Machines say 'we are at war, don't allow any more awakenings'? Because by your own numbers, that is number of the 1% who naturally reject the lie of the Matrix.

Tell me again how you Toaster-lovers are all about the "protection of bluepills?"

The lives -- or the mental health -- of an elite few do not outweigh the lives of the vast majority of the human race.  There is no caste system or apartheid here that says that an elite but tiny minority is better or more important than the billions (or millions) that make up the rest of the population. 

Illyria