Neoteny wrote:

You're killing our operatives, are you not? Spare your justification, which, according to my previous statement is no justification at all, since it bares with it no justice, there is no difference between the two now. You both get the same orders from the same people, you're both soldiers on the same side of the war. Until now, the only thing deliminating the two was that Machinists hesitated to kill Zion operatives, but that seems to have changed all too easily.

You're slipping, and if you haven't noticed that, you've already hit the bottom. The inability to recognize the human duty to protect and care for the rest of the human race in security, liberty, and right is a sign of this as well. That is how they do things. They neglect them their right to make their own choices, and in doing so, deny them their humanity.

I remember the initial confusion among Machinists at the onset of the war. I am disgusted at how many who were concerned with the overbearing and offending Machine policies and ideals no longer even question their own orders. They kill on command. It's a shame, really. I believe that many would have revolted, had the Machines destroyed Zion toward the beginning of the war. They would have seen it for the calamity and devestation that it was. However, as the war has waged on, so have minds given in and slipped away.

What Vinia said. Just as well she said it, too, 'cos I'm getting pretty tired of having to point out the obvious differences between Machinists and Cypherites again and again.

Seriously, how can you even suggest that we're stooping to their level? 'Cos we've started killing people instead of jacking them out temporarily? We're responding to an (admittedly minimal) threat, whereas the Cypherites just went ahead and killed whoever they want. They don't act under orders: they have a general idea of what the Machines want, and execute these wishes in the most horrific, violent and gruesome way possible, enjoying every moment of it. I know I make fun of the Pestilence every now and then, but to compare us to Cypherites is downright insulting.

Please. Save the sanctimonious attitude toward your fellow machinists for the morning pep-talks with your mirror, Procurator. You rant on and on about how you hate being compared to the Cypherites, and yet when it comes time for a little action you are all right there, rubbing elbows and patting backs and congratulating each other on a job well done, wink wink, nudge nudge. 

You're not so sick of them that you'll remove them from the system, now are you? Something about 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' right?

You should feel insulted. The Cypherites are disgusting creatures. The fact that Machinists are becoming Cypherites is equally disgusting.

I suggest that you are stooping to their level by killing. Merely because you do not delight in it does not change the fact that you have killed, and will kill again. I'm sure you would find no "non-violent" means of "achieving a goal" concerning our veteran operatives due to the fact that this goal was specifically to kill them. What alternative is there other than disobediance to an unjust edict?

The Cypherites are doing the same thing, following the same orders, if not in a different manner. It has always been this way. You cannot tell me that the Cypherite sabotage of Zion merely coincided with the Machine invasion. You cannot tell me that Cryptos was not controlled by the Machines. You cannot tell me that he does not still receive orders from them, though now, of course, he has a bit more of a mind to choose how it's done.

It seems to me that the Machinists are Cypherites who neglect to question the orders given, as even Cypherites take liberties with their orders, review them, consider them. How long until the Machines order Machinist craft to hunt down Zion vessels, now? Have we not already met in open combat? Your methodology does not support your ideology.

This war no longer has any room for "Machinists." In fact, it never did. As soon as they said "obey us or be destroyed along with Zion," and you complied, you became one of them.

The Machinist died with the Truce. Long live the Machine.

We were so disappointed when we found out about New Zion --

Yeah, so dissapointed you went out and shot someone.

Mark my words, The Kid won't let the deaths of those Zion vets you people have been murdering go unpunished. And when we come for retribution, you'd better pray that your precious Agent Gray is there to help.

Cause otherwise. . .bang-bang.

Oh, we realize what it means.  It means we are killing you inside the Matrix and outside it, when our biggest hope was that Zion would continue to abide by the truce so that a true and lasting peace would evolve.  We were so disappointed when we found out about New Zion -- the construction of that city was like Zion announcing "we will never trust the Machines, we don't want peace unless we can do whatever we want and not have to face the consequences".  So tell me, what dogs of war do you want to unleash, now that you're all in your bunker?  Thinking you can destroy the system is utterly laughable...but we do know it's possible for you to disrupt it, killing large numbers of bluepills in the process.  *That* is why New Zion was seen as a threat by the Machines, and why Zionite activities are now prohibited in the Matrix.  Don't think we're going to let that that threat go unchecked.

Were this our goal, do you not think that we would have taken measures to accomplish it by now? We have been at war for months - if we had any plan to cause massive destruction to the bluepills and the System, we would've enacted as soon as the war had kicked off, no? That would make sense, wouldn't it?

Who's more paranoid here? Those who fear war and receive it? Or those who fear destabalization and beckon it?

Moreover, is it truly paranoia if that which you fear comes to be, as it has here?

There is only a fine line that separates us from you and sooner or later you'll cross it too.  Mark my words.

Pyraci wrote:

Speaking of distrust and paranoia, this same argument could be used against the Machine.

Indeed, Ez.  Both sides exhibit the same tendencies.  Sadly it only takes communication to remedy and yet neither side seems to be interested in it.  This will not go well.

They did.  They did it before the original war, multiple times, and humans refused to live in peace with them.  And they did it when Neo brokered the truce, when they could have easily let their sentinels destroy Zion once the threat from Smith was over.  

Gee, thank you for the holier-than-thou attitude.  This is what really drives me crazy, this whole show of how everything you do is right, and everything we do is wrong.  You are a Machine now in that respect.  Everything you do is right because it fits with your view and your view is the only one that matters at all.  No compassion, understanding or even a WILLINGNESS to try and understand why we want to be free from control. 

How long must you hold that bogeyman of the original war over our heads?  Yes, the humans before the original war did it, and I agree that it was wrong (and stupid as well, I mean honestly, nuclear weapons against Machines?).  You are human as well, so does that mean that you chide yourself each day that your forebears were naughty and that you must be punished for it?  We know it was a mistake, we understand that.  Matters should have been handled much differently and I believe that is a lesson that we will all carry with us for the rest of humanity's future.  Neo brokered the truce, but realize that the Machines were willing to talk truce when they NEEDED him.  I have seen no evidence that the Machines' care at all more about humanity's future and existence other than where it affects themselves.  Show me a truly altruistic action and I may rescind that statement.  But in my eyes, you are trying to speak of the character behind the Machines' actions when you don't even know why take certain actions, as I do not presume to know all the reasons of Zion or the Machines'.

Oh, we realize what it means.  It means we are killing you inside the Matrix and outside it, when our biggest hope was that Zion would continue to abide by the truce so that a true and lasting peace would evolve.  We were so disappointed when we found out about New Zion -- the construction of that city was like Zion announcing "we will never trust the Machines, we don't want peace unless we can do whatever we want and not have to face the consequences".  So tell me, what dogs of war do you want to unleash, now that you're all in your bunker?  Thinking you can destroy the system is utterly laughable...but we do know it's possible for you to disrupt it, killing large numbers of bluepills in the process.  *That* is why New Zion was seen as a threat by the Machines, and why Zionite activities are now prohibited in the Matrix.  Don't think we're going to let that that threat go unchecked.

This is a neverending circle that people have already argued about.  Your perception about how Zion's construction of the city can be taken in that way...if you wish to be insecure.  I guess that insecurity is all that any of us hold on to at this moment.  Zion's insecurity about the Machines' ability to destroy them and the Machines' insecurity about not having that control over the last free human city.  Both are valid as the Machines' showed Zion that it can take over its city, and Zion now has a safer and more secure base that it could launch attacks from.  Regardless, I spoke out of anger.  It was improper for me to speak of violence in this fashion, but you do have to admit, Zion could launch more devastating attacks if it did not care about the bluepill population.

Perhaps people with attitudes like these -- who would attempt to blackmail the Machines by threatening the system and the lives of all their bluepill brothers and sisters -- don't deserve to see the real sun.

Again with the holier-than-thou attitude thinking that the Machines' do not blackmail or force people to act to their will.  You are naive and foolish to believe this.  Thankfully, its not up to you to decide who deserves what.

Please. Save the sanctimonious attitude toward your fellow machinists for the morning pep-talks with your mirror, Procurator. You rant on and on about how you hate being compared to the Cypherites, and yet when it comes time for a little action you are all right there, rubbing elbows and patting backs and congratulating each other on a job well done, wink wink, nudge nudge. 

You're not so sick of them that you'll remove them from the system, now are you? Something about 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' right?

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Please. Save the sanctimonious attitude toward your fellow machinists for the morning pep-talks with your mirror, Procurator. You rant on and on about how you hate being compared to the Cypherites, and yet when it comes time for a little action you are all right there, rubbing elbows and patting backs and congratulating each other on a job well done, wink wink, nudge nudge. 

You're not so sick of them that you'll remove them from the system, now are you? Something about 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' right?

ARE YOU COMPLETELY INSANE!? When, on God's good Earth, have I EVER fought alongside the Cypherites by choice? Rub elbows, pat backs, congratulate...? I hate the- ((the following passage will not be typed as it would contravene the forum rules regarding moderate language))! I want to kill the little- ((again, passage removed))!

You ignorant little- ((and again. You seem to have riled Procurator up somewhat " width="15" height="15"> )). Have you not followed a single thing I've done? Have you completely forgotten my tirades against them ever since the Masked Men first appeared and destroyed my hovercraft, killing my crew? I must post one at least once a week. I despise them with my very being.

When Veil invaded the Syntax instance and began taking out senior Zion operatives in their little constructs - a task we Machinists already had well in hand - she found herself confronted by Colt. I stood at the sidelines, making no move to enter the battle. But what was I doing there? Out of the two high profile targets there, who did I yell at everyone else to kill? Veil!

The only thing stopping me from doing the job myself is the Simulation's engagement protocols. I physically can't attack them in the Matrix! But the moment I encounter a Cypherite hovercraft in the Real... I will destroy them.

Didn't stop you, Star, and other members from TGS from putting a few in me and the other Zionites while we were trying to kill Veil.

Actions speak louder then words. Yes even your little cheers from the side lines.

Oh and as for the choice comment, you arn't being held at gun point or have someone ready to pull your jack every time a mission comes up that has you side by side with them do you? Sorry but unless that is the case you and every other "disgusted" Machinest do have a choice not to follow Gray or Pace's orders when it comes to working with Cypherites.

Didn't stop you, Star, and other members from TGS from putting a few in me and the other Zionites while we were trying to kill Veil.

Actions speak louder then words. Yes even your little cheers from the side lines.

Oh and as for the choice comment, you arn't being held at gun point or have someone ready to pull your jack every time a mission comes up that has you side by side with them do you? Sorry but unless that is the case you and every other "disgusted" Machinest do have a choice not to follow Gray or Pace's orders when it comes to working with Cypherites.

from TGS from putting a few in me and the other Zionites while we were trying to kill Veil.

GamiSB wrote:

Didn't stop you, Star, and other members from TGS from putting a few in me and the other Zionites while we were trying to kill Veil.

Actions speak louder then words. Yes even your little cheers from the side lines.

Oh and as for the choice comment, you arn't being held at gun point or have someone ready to pull your jack every time a mission comes up that has you side by side with them do you? Sorry but unless that is the case you and every other "disgusted" Machinest do have a choice not to follow Gray or Pace's orders when it comes to working with Cypherites.

...

I'll admit that the battle was a little frantic, but I feel I must point out a little something my operator caught in all the shouting that was going on:

Procurator: Go on, Gami!
Procurator: Never thought I'd root for an EPN...

I saw you fighting Veil. I was rooting for you, you idiot.

What's more, there was no one else from TGS in the Simulation at that time, so I'm not sure where you can summon those accusations from. And I can't help what other Machinists do. I stand by my belief that the majority of us hate the Cypherites, but how they weigh the respective threats of the Masked and the Pestilence is entirely up to them.

And no, I don't have someone pointing a gun at me. Contrary to what EPN and the Pestilence would like to believe, we Machinists have free will. Again, I can't speak for other Machinists on this particular matter, but I do not work with the Cypherites. Ever. I don't care what orders come down, I do not work with them.

Heard that, also could hear and see the bullets flying at me from other "anti Cyphs". Forgive me if I confuse faces in heated battle. ((oh yeah, stars in watchmen. my bad))

So if you don't have a gun aginst your head then I believe we have an anwser to your earlier quiestion. You have fought with them, you have sided with them. If I were to look through the Machine archive to find what critical mission you had worked I would find you fighting side by side with them. No matter how much you cry about it or deny it the fact remains that you have still made the choice to work with them when asked.

GamiSB wrote:

from TGS from putting a few in me and the other Zionites while we were trying to kill Veil.

You were easier to aim at than Veil - ditto Colt. Don't go making wild assumptions about me actually liking the Cypherites - you're all the same to me.