Cervacius wrote:

Huh?  What's this about Commando Agents?  I remember OF them, but I don't remember them.

I think he means the guys in Pandora's Box Three, the ones who look like military commandos of some sort. The text of the special report doohickeys they drop even mention something about them getting attacked and/or deleted by the standard guys-in-suits Agents we're the most familiar with from the movies.

Now, if the Agents from the Paradise Matrix were angels, wouldn't it stand to reason that the Agents in the Hell Matrix that followed it might be demons of some sort, or is my passion for urban fantasy just getting the better of me?

Architect: The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art - flawless, sublime. A triumph equalled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus, I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another - an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

1. Perfect Matrix
2. Historical Matrix
3. Historical Matrix built on choice

No mention of a "Hell" version of the Matrix in sight. (OMG MXO CONTRADICTION!!!11!1!1!!1!) But lets humor the idea that if there was one and that this"Hell" Matrix is actully one in the same as the "perfect" one. After all balance is needed so if there is a heaven their must be a hell. In fact it can be taken almost as far as explainging certain peoples strong convictions within the Matrix that their is a heaven and hell. Perhaps these people are subconsiously sliping their minds into these past constructs.

GamiSB wrote:

Architect: The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art - flawless, sublime. A triumph equalled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus, I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another - an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

1. Perfect Matrix
2. Historical Matrix
3. Historical Matrix built on choice

No mention of a "Hell" version of the Matrix in sight. (OMG MXO CONTRADICTION!!!11!1!1!!1!) But lets humor the idea that if there was one and that this"Hell" Matrix is actully one in the same as the "perfect" one. After all balance is needed so if there is a heaven their must be a hell. In fact it can be taken almost as far as explainging certain peoples strong convictions within the Matrix that their is a heaven and hell. Perhaps these people are subconsiously sliping their minds into these past constructs.

This could easily be refering to a "Hell" version of The Matrix. Our "grotesqueries", literally meaning things that are grotesque, could refer to ghosts, vampires, werewolves, demons, etc.

Yeah, untill you recall whats showing on all the screens behind Neo and Archie once he says that. No flames and men with pitchforks but rather just simply our history. Also programs such as Agents and the Architect are not intersted in hidden meanings behind there words. What they say is exactly what they mean thus he isn't alluding to a world fit to punsh us for our sins but rather just a world based of them.

Also what in the world would posses you to install all of your life support into a system that wants to punish and destroy them? It would be like planting a corn feild in the desert.

monkeymanx8 wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

Architect: The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art - flawless, sublime. A triumph equalled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus, I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another - an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

1. Perfect Matrix
2. Historical Matrix
3. Historical Matrix built on choice

No mention of a "Hell" version of the Matrix in sight. (OMG MXO CONTRADICTION!!!11!1!1!!1!) But lets humor the idea that if there was one and that this"Hell" Matrix is actully one in the same as the "perfect" one. After all balance is needed so if there is a heaven their must be a hell. In fact it can be taken almost as far as explainging certain peoples strong convictions within the Matrix that their is a heaven and hell. Perhaps these people are subconsiously sliping their minds into these past constructs.

This could easily be refering to a "Hell" version of The Matrix. Our "grotesqueries", literally meaning things that are grotesque, could refer to ghosts, vampires, werewolves, demons, etc.

Yeah, untill you recall whats showing on all the screens behind Neo and Archie once he says that. No flames and men with pitchforks but rather just simply our history. Also programs such as Agents and the Architect are not intersted in hidden meanings behind there words. What they say is exactly what they mean thus he isn't alluding to a world fit to punsh us for our sins but rather just a world based of them.

Also what in the world would posses you to install all of your life support into a system that wants to punish and destroy them? It would be like planting a corn feild in the desert.

Obviously he didn't plant the whole crop into that Matrix, but it was enough of a failure for him to pull the plug and create The Oracle.

It would make sense if Ookami was a previous Agent of the 'grotesque' Matrix, as with gargoyle. I believe the Merovingian said he came from that matrix as well, or it might have been the first one.

I don't think the Architect created the Oracle, she was just the intuitive program that stumbled upon the solution. As for the Merovingian, isn't he believed to be the OS for the 'hell'/'imperfect'/'historically accurate'/'grotesque' version of the Simulation?

The 'hell' version need not be 'hell' in the biblical sense of the word. A world perpetually torn apart by war and suffering could be seen as hell....

Didn't the Oracle say that stories of ghosts etc.. are created by people witnessing the system assimilating a program doing what it shouldn't be doing? In any case, who's to say that Lupines and Vampires weren't created to influence Mankind in their actions rather than to simply terrorise them?

I doubt we have seen the 'Agents' of the 'hell'/'imperfect'/'historically accurate'/'grotesque' simulation....

Roukan wrote:

Obviously he didn't plant the whole crop into that Matrix, but it was enough of a failure for him to pull the plug and create The Oracle.

It would make sense if Ookami was a previous Agent of the 'grotesque' Matrix, as with gargoyle. I believe the Merovingian said he came from that matrix as well, or it might have been the first one.

I don't think the Architect created the Oracle, she was just the intuitive program that stumbled upon the solution. As for the Merovingian, isn't he believed to be the OS for the 'hell'/'imperfect'/'historically accurate'/'grotesque' version of the Simulation?

The 'hell' version need not be 'hell' in the biblical sense of the word. A world perpetually torn apart by war and suffering could be seen as hell....

Didn't the Oracle say that stories of ghosts etc.. are created by people witnessing the system assimilating a program doing what it shouldn't be doing? In any case, who's to say that Lupines and Vampires weren't created to influence Mankind in their actions rather than to simply terrorise them?

I doubt we have seen the 'Agents' of the 'hell'/'imperfect'/'historically accurate'/'grotesque' simulation....

GamiSB wrote:

monkeymanx8 wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

Architect: The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art - flawless, sublime. A triumph equalled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus, I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another - an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

1. Perfect Matrix
2. Historical Matrix
3. Historical Matrix built on choice

No mention of a "Hell" version of the Matrix in sight. (OMG MXO CONTRADICTION!!!11!1!1!!1!) But lets humor the idea that if there was one and that this"Hell" Matrix is actully one in the same as the "perfect" one. After all balance is needed so if there is a heaven their must be a hell. In fact it can be taken almost as far as explainging certain peoples strong convictions within the Matrix that their is a heaven and hell. Perhaps these people are subconsiously sliping their minds into these past constructs.

This could easily be refering to a "Hell" version of The Matrix. Our "grotesqueries", literally meaning things that are grotesque, could refer to ghosts, vampires, werewolves, demons, etc.

Yeah, untill you recall whats showing on all the screens behind Neo and Archie once he says that. No flames and men with pitchforks but rather just simply our history. Also programs such as Agents and the Architect are not intersted in hidden meanings behind there words. What they say is exactly what they mean thus he isn't alluding to a world fit to punsh us for our sins but rather just a world based of them.

Also what in the world would posses you to install all of your life support into a system that wants to punish and destroy them? It would be like planting a corn feild in the desert.

I believe he was testing. Finding what works. Humans cannot have subliminal peace, so the next logical step was darkness and pain. That's what he means by grotesqueries, a world worse than the one we actually live in. It could mean hell with Gargoyles, Succubus', Vampires, Ookami.. or it could just be a war torn world. Obviously he didn't plant the whole crop into that Matrix, but it was enough of a failure for him to pull the plug and create The Oracle. But I think that Programs can't just change at will, they have to be introduced as they are. Then again, it is just code. All the exiles could have been peaceful angels and suddenly wanted to change when they turned Exile.

It would make sense if Ookami was a previous Agent of the 'grotesque' Matrix, as with gargoyle. I believe the Merovingian said he came from that matrix as well, or it might have been the first one.

Vinia wrote:

Roukan wrote:

Obviously he didn't plant the whole crop into that Matrix, but it was enough of a failure for him to pull the plug and create The Oracle.

It would make sense if Ookami was a previous Agent of the 'grotesque' Matrix, as with gargoyle. I believe the Merovingian said he came from that matrix as well, or it might have been the first one.

I don't think the Architect created the Oracle, she was just the intuitive program that stumbled upon the solution. As for the Merovingian, isn't he believed to be the OS for the 'hell'/'imperfect'/'historically accurate'/'grotesque' version of the Simulation?

The 'hell' version need not be 'hell' in the biblical sense of the word. A world perpetually torn apart by war and suffering could be seen as hell....

Didn't the Oracle say that stories of ghosts etc.. are created by people witnessing the system assimilating a program doing what it shouldn't be doing? In any case, who's to say that Lupines and Vampires weren't created to influence Mankind in their actions rather than to simply terrorise them?

I doubt we have seen the 'Agents' of the 'hell'/'imperfect'/'historically accurate'/'grotesque' simulation....

We'd have to find where it states what the Merovingian was, cause now it's bugging me =P. Most people assume the hell matrix is based off of hell because the Agents of the heavenly matrix were Angels. =]

Roukan wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

monkeymanx8 wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

Architect: The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art - flawless, sublime. A triumph equalled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus, I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another - an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

1. Perfect Matrix
2. Historical Matrix
3. Historical Matrix built on choice

No mention of a "Hell" version of the Matrix in sight. (OMG MXO CONTRADICTION!!!11!1!1!!1!) But lets humor the idea that if there was one and that this"Hell" Matrix is actully one in the same as the "perfect" one. After all balance is needed so if there is a heaven their must be a hell. In fact it can be taken almost as far as explainging certain peoples strong convictions within the Matrix that their is a heaven and hell. Perhaps these people are subconsiously sliping their minds into these past constructs.

This could easily be refering to a "Hell" version of The Matrix. Our "grotesqueries", literally meaning things that are grotesque, could refer to ghosts, vampires, werewolves, demons, etc.

Yeah, untill you recall whats showing on all the screens behind Neo and Archie once he says that. No flames and men with pitchforks but rather just simply our history. Also programs such as Agents and the Architect are not intersted in hidden meanings behind there words. What they say is exactly what they mean thus he isn't alluding to a world fit to punsh us for our sins but rather just a world based of them.

Also what in the world would posses you to install all of your life support into a system that wants to punish and destroy them? It would be like planting a corn feild in the desert.

I believe he was testing. Finding what works. Humans cannot have subliminal peace, so the next logical step was darkness and pain. That's what he means by grotesqueries, a world worse than the one we actually live in. It could mean hell with Gargoyles, Succubus', Vampires, Ookami.. or it could just be a war torn world. Obviously he didn't plant the whole crop into that Matrix, but it was enough of a failure for him to pull the plug and create The Oracle. But I think that Programs can't just change at will, they have to be introduced as they are. Then again, it is just code. All the exiles could have been peaceful angels and suddenly wanted to change when they turned Exile.

It would make sense if Ookami was a previous Agent of the 'grotesque' Matrix, as with gargoyle. I believe the Merovingian said he came from that matrix as well, or it might have been the first one.

This is assumeing that the second version was a "hell" which isn't anything like what the Architect says. The idea that vampires, lupins, sucubi were past Agents as they were or even that they had some kind of purpose in this second version is ridiculous. What do these creatures have to do with our history other then myth? Nothing. These programs were either former programs that looked simular to the programs we have in our current version that have become corrupt (see the Oracle's explination in reloaded) or something simular to what I sudgested in my first post. But its clear that they were not implamented as they were and that the "hell" version was something out of a horror movie.

I understand why you might see the idea of the second version of The Matrix resembling mythical Hell unlucky, and I agree that The Architect does not state such, but look at the first version. The only thing The Architect states about the first version of The Matrix is its perfection and flawlessness. Yet, we learn from MxO's contintuation of the storyline, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the first version has a resemblance to idealogical Heaven, with its angelic agents and so forth. This being true, why couldn't the second version of The Matrix resemble idealogical Hell? Where else would these demonic exiles originate? Also, you stated that on the screens in The Architect's room, it shows Earth's history, which is true. But what does this have to do with the second version of The Matrix? When the Architect is explaining the multiple versions to Neo, and correct me if I am also wrong here, he never refers to the screens. I believe the screens are merely supposed to show that The Architect's present purpose is to serve as a form of a watcher, i.e. The menu introduction to The Animatrix, one of Chapter 8's (MxO) cinematics, etc.

Attempting to stay on topic, we know that agents for V1 were Seraphim, the agents for V3.4 were Commando Agents, and and agents for V3.5 are G-Men Agents. But what are the agents for V2 (under debate) and V3.0-3.3?

I understand why you might see the idea of the second version of The Matrix resembling mythical Hell unlucky, and I agree that The Architect does not state such, but look at the first version. The only thing The Architect states about the first version of The Matrix is its perfection and flawlessness. Yet, we learn from MxO's contintuation of the storyline, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the first version has a resemblance to idealogical Heaven, with its angelic agents and so forth. This being true, why couldn't the second version of The Matrix resemble idealogical Hell? Where else would these demonic exiles originate? Also, you stated that on the screens in The Architect's room, it shows Earth's history, which is true. But what does this have to do with the second version of The Matrix? When the Architect is explaining the multiple versions to Neo, and correct me if I am also wrong here, he never refers to the screens. I believe the screens are merely supposed to show that The Architect's present purpose is to serve as a form of a watcher, i.e. The menu introduction to The Animatrix, one of Chapter 8's (MxO) cinematics, etc.

Attempting to stay on topic, if you're trying to determine the agents of version two in MxO, look for a suited character. Both the agents from versions one and three wear some kind of suit.

The first version is an exception to the other three. It's based souly on the Machines interpritation of what a "paradise" is. The second and thrid version however were not based off an interpritation of "hell" but simply our history. As I said before no where in history do vampires, or any kind of demonic creature appear other then in myth. Using such beings as the guardians and protectors doens't make sence especially when you are attempting to create a world that people would accept. If anything you put fear in them but thats all.

The screens shown behind them are changed through out the scean and are linked to the current conversation and used to help the viewer understand what exatly they are speaking about. When it's simply Neo and Archie talking its remains on Neo. When he explains what Neo is it shows Neo's life and what lead him to where he was. When it comes to the history they show images of our history. When it comes to the choice and explaing what he must do we see all the people in the Matrix which for the first 5 were reason enough to choose the door to the source. Finally we see Trinity when the Architect shows Neo why he won't choose that door. As I said the screens change to help us understand as viewers.

The first version is an exception to the other three. It's based souly on the Machines interpritation of what a "paradise" is. The second and thrid version however were not based off an interpritation of "hell" but simply our history. As I said before no where in history do vampires, or any kind of demonic creature appear other then in myth. Using such beings as the guardians and protectors doens't make sence especially when you are attempting to create a world that people would accept. If anything you put fear in them but thats all.

The screens shown behind them are changed through out the scean and are linked to the current conversation and used to help the viewer understand what exatly they are speaking about. When it's simply Neo and Archie talking its remains on Neo. When he explains what Neo is it shows Neo's life and what lead him to where he was. When it comes to the history they show images of our history. When it comes to the choice and explaing what he must do we see all the people in the Matrix which for the first 5 were reason enough to choose the door to the source. Finally we see Trinity when the Architect shows Neo why he won't choose that door. As I said the screens change to help us understand as viewers.

 

You seem confident in your understanding of the different versions, but what makes you so sure? You are the only one I've ever heard to post this idea, and everyone else, including extreme The Matrix fans like myself, support the idea the the versions are 1: Heaven, 2: Hell, 3: prime of human civilization. Where do you think the demonic exiles come from? Please tell the inspirations to your ideas.

It was one man that said the world revolved around the sun wasn't it?

I'm confident because I understand that in any kind of decent writing everything has a reason and a meaning behind it, especially in a story like the Matrix. Thus their must be a reason for the changing screens in select sections of the Architect's explanation and key ideas that the W bros are trying to address without filling the movie with details. Three of these segments are there to show and help explain something to Neo/the viewers yet this forth one, the one that mentions the past versions of the Matrix, how the second was built off of human history, and the images displayed during this very explination, is skipped over and ignored. I'm confident in my idea because unlike other theories of a "hell Matrix mine doesn't try to twist things to make it work and ignore certain areas but rather addresses the issue directly as its presented by the guy that built the *CENSORED* things. Is my idea right? No idea, but at the least I'm sure that this "Hell" Matrix was never apart of the second version and if it did exist it was then apart of the first.

I should also mention though that I've long sense abandoned any faith in an "extream Matrix fan's" explanation for things because most follow the same pattern. The fan has their own idea and twists what they need to in order to make it work and then ignore the rest. Seraph being a former One, Reinsertion, Zion being in a Matrix, etc. Granted this is no reason for my own ideas being right or wrong just my take on the "facts".

As for where these exiles came from, this was explained in the second film.

"There are programs running all over the place. The ones doing their job, doing what they were meant to do, are invisible. You'd never even know they were here. But the other ones, well, we hear about them all the time. Every time you've heard someone say they saw a ghost, or an angel. Every story you've ever heard about vampires, werewolves, or aliens is the system assimilating some program that's doing something they're not supposed to be doing."

They are simply former programs from past Matrixes that have become corrupted. They were never intended to appear as they do and their appearance is simply a bi-product of them remaining in the system.

And if anyone feels this has gotten off track Im mearly explaining why Sucubi, vamps, and lupines are not past Agents. If anything Version Two had the exiles that are in box 3 which were then switched out for our current Agents between Version 2 and now.

Architect: The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art - flawless, sublime. A triumph equalled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus, I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another - an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

1. Perfect Matrix
2. Historical Matrix
3. Historical Matrix built on choice

No mention of a "Hell" version of the Matrix in sight. (OMG MXO CONTRADICTION!!!11!1!1!!1!) But lets humor the idea that if there was one and that this"Hell" Matrix is actully one in the same as the "perfect" one. After all balance is needed so if there is a heaven their must be a hell. In fact it can be taken almost as far as explainging certain peoples strong convictions within the Matrix that their is a heaven and hell. Perhaps these people are subconsiously sliping their minds into these past constructs.