But because I want the machines gone dosn't mean I want to bring down the system and kill millions of innocents

By 'innocents', I'm guessing you mean human bluepills only...because many intelligent machines and programs (the equivalent of civilians) will be wiped out if you got your wish of having the Machines gone.  Or are they not considered innocents because of their race or who governs them?

Illyria

aracher wrote:

But because I want the machines gone dosn't mean I want to bring down the system and kill millions of innocents

By 'innocents', I'm guessing you mean human bluepills only...because many intelligent machines and programs (the equivalent of civilians) will be wiped out if you got your wish of having the Machines gone.  Or are they not considered innocents because of their race or who governs them?
Illyria

Of course they don't care about Machine civilians, they either believe that there is no such thing, that all Machines are mindless killers, or they don't care because they are prejudiced against anything that isn't created from flesh and blood, Preferring to either commit mass genocide or to get the Machines back to their former status as slaves to Mankind.

My prediction is that the next Zion or EPN message in this discussion will be accusations of genocide from them (they will be referring to the cycles of the destruction of Zion), which they will say is reason enough for them to want to destroy the Machines and/or the Matrix.  But what they will fail to grasp -- yet again -- is that one individual's existence is worth the same as any other individual's.  Many of them will state that the life of a redpill is worth more than the life of a bluepill, because the redpill is part of "free humanity", or that a human life is worth more than the life of an AI because the human is, well...human (meaning, part of the same species as the Zionite or EPN).  But one life is the same as any other life.  Even in the 20th century, we'd moved beyond this "one type of person is worth 3/5 of another type of person" nonsense.

For anyone who wants to minimize the overall number of deaths (both of individuals and of species), the choice is to support the Machines.  Destroying them would wipe out not just individuals, but an entire species.  (But then, humanity has already wiped out most of the other species with Darkstorm.)  Plus, destroying the Machines would also destroy the life support system for the bluepills...millions or billions of human lives.

Illyria

No, not all EPN members seek the destruction of the Matrix and the Bluepill lives it supports. The problem is, of course, that no action is taken by Popper to distance themselves from those types.  Pluribus Neo has no common goal other than vague concepts like "what's right" and "What Neo would want" - which leads to their usual antics of swooning over anything in a trench coat , blowing up civilians to "free them", and opposing any and all things related to the Machines, regardless of consequences.

At no point was my message directed at every single Zionite or EPN out there. I have spoken to some who are remarkably understanding of our view and who can purvey their own view across in an almost diplomatic manner. No, my comment was directed at those who consistently post, calling for the end of Machine life.
There are two types of these people, those who want the Machines gone but want to make sure that human innocents do not get killed or, the lowest of the low, those who want the simulation brought down with little regard for the safety of the majority of bluepills instead suggesting that they will be present at the pods to save the few that can be saved. Either one still wants to extinguish intelligent minds of a race in which many minds can be considered innocent.

Listen, if you think I don't want the bluepills to be safe, you're wrong. I just don't see there as being any other option at the moment. Were there a way to start up a true and lasting peace not contingent upon the building of cities with passive defenses, I'd be all over it. Were there a way to destroy the Machines without harming a single human soul, I'd be all over that too. But there isn't.

To put it simply, I am willing to go to the length of the sacrifice of the bluepills in order to maintain the freedom of mankind. Put simply, millions would die for billions to be born. To be born into a world where they are not neither constrained by the law of an authoritarian Machine law nor the chains inherent of being born within a simulated world. With the sacrifice of millions, the war would be over.

And don't you see? This is our only option to end the war. For us, this is the only way. We've got nothing else to force the Machines into submission, and they've got everything to keep us on our backs as we are. As soon as the Accelerated Man disappears, we'll be right back in their clutches, minutes away from destruction. The declaration of war was entirely their call, entirely within their power, as is the option of peace.

I ask you, does it seem like peace is possible? Imminent, even?

Of course not. But if we take down the Matrix, we end them. We are free. We have peace. Cry and bemoan the loss of life if you will, but I'll be damned if I don't do everything necessary for the preservation of free humanity.

Actually...

I'd like to say that not all of us believe that the Machine is a horde of "mindless killers" that need to be eradicated. Not all of us believe that those of us that live as reds or freeborn have any more or less right to life than bluepills. As a matter of fact, EPN is about giving people the choice and letting them decide for themselves, not destroying the Machine or the Matrix. The Machine has a problem with this because that threatens it's crop, and it knows that if people knew what was really going on, they would reject it en-masse, which wouldn't be controllable at that point.

Funny, these stereotypes come from the same people that don't want to be classified as the mindless, order-taking Machinist pawns that some claim them to be, yet we all want the Machine to burn and all life to end in the Matrix because some of us are EPN or vigilant Zionites. Let us not generalize. That leads to trouble.

Illyria22 wrote:

aracher wrote:

But because I want the machines gone dosn't mean I want to bring down the system and kill millions of innocents

By 'innocents', I'm guessing you mean human bluepills only...because many intelligent machines and programs (the equivalent of civilians) will be wiped out if you got your wish of having the Machines gone.  Or are they not considered innocents because of their race or who governs them?
Illyria

Of course they don't care about Machine civilians, they either believe that there is no such thing, that all Machines are mindless killers, or they don't care because they are prejudiced against anything that isn't created from flesh and blood, Preferring to either commit mass genocide or to get the Machines back to their former status as slaves to Mankind.

Oh bull!! That's Zion's "Final Solution" huh.... "no other way", yeah right. Its that sort of short sighted thinking that brought the human race to the brink of destruction before the Machines ever became sentient. How about some honest talk between the two intelligent life forms? How about working to make the planet a better place live in again? No, there is always another way, the human race that lives in the Real just has to break out of it's arrogance. Mankind birthed A.I., the simple statement "I do not want to die" uttered from our creation should have clued Mankind in that another form of life, aware of it's existence wanted to be accepted as a valid form of life.

Foregoing the history lesson we are now at another crossroads and the children of our creations are much more powerful. Does Mankind opt to continue a war that will ultimately bring about his end? Does he sacrifice his own kind in an attempt to destroy what he created?

And if the Machines don't matter, then question of the millions of lives that are going about their existence unaware of the conflict should be taken into consideration. Shutting down the Matrix may seem to be the "quick fix" but I doubt that is any consolation to the millions Zion would have murdered just to be back on top of the food chain.

Let me first make it abundantly clear that I'm about the only person in Zion with this opnion, or, at the very least, the only one I've seen own up to it. I give my opinion at meetings and get called a murderer and a butcher. It's not like I'm being heralded and that everyone (or anyone) is behind me here. I don't expect them to be. I just see things as I do, and will see the solutions as I do.

If you can find another way, I implore you to share it. I'd be more than happy to pursue it to its ends, whether that be peace or failure. But the only suggestion I've ever heard anyone offer us is "try talking with them." But let me clarify: we are the ones who had war declared on us and they do not want to listen to us. Were they willing to listen, we would have spoken quite a while ago, and, perhaps, war never would have ensued.

So until you can conceive a solution of your own, I ask that you quit spouting idealistic propoganda that there's always a way. There isn't. If there were always a way, the Matrix never would have existed in the first place. That doesn't mean that we won't look for it, but we have to be prepared for the possibility, perhaps even the inevitability, that this is the only way that we'll ever make it out of their clutches, their wars, their murders.