To be upset that this Zion operative is dead is like being upset that someone trespassing on private property or in a sensitive area (a government building, the White House, etc.) was shot by the police.  He entered an area he wasn't supposed to be in during a time of war; what do you think was going to happen?  If I went to New Zion, I would expect to be shot dead the instant I was seen, no matter what my actual intentions for being there might be...therefore, I wouldn't trespass in New Zion!  Zionites need to be bright enough to reverse this scenario and *not* trespass in the Matrix.

Very true.  They've been warned numerous times.

Illyria

It's cute to see how all the machines agreed on what we are allowed to do or not. And we should have done this and done that. About time you change politics on how things are to be run in the Matrix or you will always have enemies like us. Face it..and besides we are at war, so yes we lose some and we get some. We have tried numbers times to negotiate with you or atleast try to sit down around the table for a peacefull solution to stop this endless killing. But NO...we must drop all weapons and talk you with a gun poined our heads. Get real....even yourself wouldn't accept that.

Machines.....you all need a upgrade!

Peace...

I have not seen one time Zion tried to negotiate with the Machines, other than when the Machines wanted access to parts of Zion's mainframe.  (However, after doing the most recent set of archive missions, it becomes pretty obvious why Zion refused the request -- they were still building New Zion at the time, and they needed to keep this breech of the truce a secret until it was completed.  They didn't want their actions to have consequences.)

Illyria

We have tried numbers times to negotiate with you or atleast try to sit down around the table for a peacefull solution to stop this endless killing. But NO...we must drop all weapons and talk you with a gun poined our heads.

 

In Agent Gray's own words, negotiations could not begin until Zionites "laid down their arms" (i.e. deactivated the defenses of New Zion, weapons in the Matrix mean nothing). We're not the ones prohibiting peace talks, we're simply unwilling to be killed. If they want to talk, it can be done on neutral ground in the Matrix, quite easily, without anyone "laying down" anything.

And there were numerous discussions before - Niobe approached the Agents concerning the death of Morpheus, we talked to the Agents after Anome went ballistic ((Zion Archive 5.1.1)), hell, I've even sent personal e-mails and made requests in person to speak with Pace concerneing the Machine-Cypherite cooperation which went completely ignored.

And Illyria, maybe what you should be asking isn't why Zion was trying to hide the information, but why the Machines were so keen on having it. I don't even know if the information on New Zion would've been in there as it was top secret enough from the vast majority of Zionites, and probably would've been kept largely on small removable storage devices, rather than in the large mother-of-all-databases. However, what I do know is what they're doing with the information they've gotten from the Mainframe now - killing veteran operatives. You think maybe that could be the reason we didn't want them to have it?

Furthermore, why did they want it at that point in time? To kill operatives? To discover new cities and use them as excuses to wage wars? That whole "further analyze operative profiles to prevent future Anomes" was ridiculous. If that was the case, they could've just asked for that information, but no, they asked for the whole mainframe. They were obviously after something else. Their motivations aren't too wholesome.

I don't think the Machines were looking for your new city...but I do know that Zion couldn't take the chance of them finding out about it before it was finished. 

Illyria

machines just love to control everything. controlcontrolcontrol, controlcontrolcontrol! CONTROL.

I don't think the Machines were looking for your new city...but I do know that Zion couldn't take the chance of them finding out about it before it was finished. 

Well, essentially they've gotten what they wanted then now, haven't they? And what have they used of it? Devices for murder. I say we were right not to give them access, if it means that we prevented our immediate and utter deaths. Though obviously we were not able to prevent them all...

And Cap, how is it the present incarnation of humanity's fault for the control of the Machines? We were born by them, made by them - injected into a system of pre-existing control. We fought for freedom, and gained a false sense of it through Neo's sacrifice. It became all too apparent when we found out about the Machine-sponsorship behind the Cypherites for the purpose of... You guessed it, control. Are we to blame for some sort of "original sin" committed by what is essentially a completely different race, now that we are grown, not born, by Machines?

I'm tired of hearing about what racists did a millenium ago, and I'll be damned if you throw me in with them for all of the work I've done trying to support the Truce and Man-Machine relations during its time. But I'll tell you this - it was they that demanded the redpills never enter the Matrix, never free minds during the first war, it was they that demanded access to the Zion Mainframe, what would lead to the deaths of many veteran Zion operatives in a later time, they that demanded through force of the Cypherites that we cease awakenings and stop entering the Matrix during the Truce, and it was they who demand that we never enter the Matrix, never free minds during this war. Do you not see the pattern to this madness?

They're the ones that refuse to listen, not us. We're the ones who are being oppressed, not them. What have they to fear of our "weapons?" Nothing, as long as they keep away. What have we to fear of theirs? Everything.

Maybe the Machine should lay down its weapons to come to the discussion table.

And Cap, how is it the present incarnation of humanity's fault for the control of the Machines?

They're the ones that refuse to listen, not us. We're the ones who are being oppressed, not them. What have they to fear of our "weapons?" Nothing, as long as they keep away. What have we to fear of theirs? Everything.

Maybe the Machine should lay down its weapons to come to the discussion table.

I beg to differ. What humanity did before the Machines took control of the planet does reflect on today's population. So what if we're created by the Machines? We're still humans, our brains still work in the same way. The only way that we might not fall into the same mindsets as those we had in the 21st century is if society itself has changed. It hasn't.

The world has changed, sure, but society sucks just as much now as it did then. And that's just in the Real. All of us were born in the Matrix and have lived in there to be teenagers or into our twenties. And during those years we were subject to exactly the same influences that society threw at our ancestors - the Matrix simulates the turn of the millennium after all. (And as for the freeborns, they can all trace their lineage to podborns, so they're subject to their parents' influence.) And if you want to argue that Bluepill society is entirely orchestrated by the Machines and that it's therefore their fault that we're brought up that way, consider this: they tried a perfect Matrix. They tried a paradise. No doubt that society wouldn't have made us act like our ancestors. But that Matrix collapsed, remember? So they reverted back to the only society that we could accept. It's our natural state.

In short: humanity is the same, society is the same, so we're just as likely to be racist, warmongering and downright stupid as our 21st century ancestors. And it is for that reason that we have certain idiots in Zion (I'm not saying all of you) who hate or fear the Machines, we have Machine sympathisers (viz. Machinists), we have gluttonous hedonists who don't care about the global situation (Merv operatives) and we have terrorists (Cypherites and EPN). We're the same mix of people that existed centuries ago, and any prejudices applied to them by the Machines now apply to us.

On another note... Are you seriously suggesting that when the Machines requested access to the Zion mainframe all those months ago they only did it so they could start killing operatives? Please don't tell me you're serious! The sheer paranoia of some Zionites truly shocks me. During the Truce Zion was safe from the Machines. Why can't you lot get that through your thick skulls?

By your logic, all redpills should be dead, or committed to some sort of vegetable state where they are unable to act, since we are all predestined to start and perpetuate war. And since you concern yourself only with the genetic makeup, that means all Machinists and Cypherites should be lumped in with that group along with the Zionites, EPN, and Merovingian lackeys.

And yes, I am suggesting that what they requested access to the Zion mainframe in order to launch an even more pre-emptive strike on us. It's the only thing they have done with the information they've obtained from the Zion Mainframe. I've no evidence other than their word, which has proven itself to be less than trustworthy (remember that whole "Truce" thing? "We won't attack you, you won't attack us, you're free to extract the one percent?" That held up real well).

Vinia wrote:

Refusing to listen is exactly why your veteran soldiers got killed. You are as much to blame for being stubborn. Your weapons can kill the Machines, these weapons can and are mounted on board your ships. Just one of these EMP's goes off within the pod towers or along the powerlines, who knows what kind of destruction that would cause. Even within the simulation, if there was a way to disrupt it whilst not harming the blues you'd take it. The Machines certainly have something to fear from Zion which is why they have been attempting to contain you within your city bounds and away from the simulation.

It takes both sides to negotiate and a negotiation can take place under terms. That means you can say you want to meet them in a neutral place... away from New Zion, away from the Matrix you can show that you have deactivated your defences and the Machines can show that they have deactivated theirs, you can also position listening ships along lines of entry to keep an eye out for Machines. If the Machines did decide to attack then the time it would take to get to New Zion would give you ample time to reactivate your defences.

Of course you have shown no willing to do this, your leaders have not called for a negotiation, no statement of terms has been put forward, in fact you have not shown to have given it any thought. The only thing you have been seen to have been thinking about is how to continue to trespass into Machine territory.

The only way you will ever negotiate is if forced to the table, you have not shown that you will do it of your own free will, you are too stubborn to do that even with the losses of your experienced Operatives. Until you call for negotiation, the longer this war drags on for.... the longer it carries on with Operatives trespassing inside the simulation, the more deaths are on your hands.

Please. Let's not forget who called off the Truce, here. As far as negotiation goes - the Machines haven't really shown themselves to be open to counter-offers. Remember when they asked for access to the Zion Mainframe? Tall order, right? Well, we made quite the equitable offer, access to our mainframe in exchange for access to the Zero-One Mainframe. If it sounds outlandish, it's only because you see as I see - that the Machines are not ones to budge on a matter, and that to request them to is a fruitless effort.

They made a request - that we disarm to "resume negotiation." First of all, there is no promise of peace, and, if we are to remain disarmed, who's to say they won't just swim on in and destroy us while at the negotiation table? It's neither sound nor practical for us. That's not being bullheaded, it's just being sensible. But second of all, disarm what? Our defenses of New Zion? That point's been mentioned. I hardly believe they're referencing our EMP devices aboard Hovercraft as those have been aboard ships during the first war, during the Truce, and during the war now. As for the scenarios you've mentioned? I've never heard of any of those happening. What I have heard of is Sentinels swarming ships, bringing many down, and leaving only the lucky who have fired off an EMP at precisely the right moment alive. Even those are generally battered by the attack, or have lost a crew member who was jacked-in at the time the EMP was fired off.

But disarming is largely unnecessary. They could easily negotiate for our disarming, if that were their angle, but there's no way we're going to submit to an outrageous term such as that just to sit down at the table, without any guarantee of peace, safety, and liberty. We want a conditionless negotiation, if there is to be one at all. And wouldn't it be easy enough to meet in the Matrix, where no one need fear death or weapons of the Real?

The point is, they came up with a term they knew would go unfulfilled, just like they came up with a request they knew would go unfulfilled when they asked for access to the Zion Mainframe. The earlier of the two was to implicate us as traitors to the Truce with something to hide - and perhaps we did, though that is not the point, as they did not know that back then (and neither did most of us). They've done the same here, by levelling such an outrageous cost to even approaching negotiation that it seems that we are not interested.

They are polarizing you, and you are falling for it. Hard. Or was there not a time you would've thought the cessation of awakenings a bad thing?